Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

[Meriweather]

Don't you understand that the men of that time were very uneducated, superstitious and curious? For thousands of years they debated this stuff. And what you wrote above was the best those guys could come up with. Today if we started all over, we would be asking the same questions but using science to find the answers, not some ancient made up holy books. You are no different than every other organized/made up religion that came before or after you. The Greeks were very devoted to their gods. Look at how much thought they put into gods. How many gods did they have? One for every occasion. Sort of like an Xman movie. So all this Divine Providence was initially made up and the people who swallowed it passed it on just like a parent passes on a bad genetic gene. Time to change.

If God is real then so is Zeus and the Wolverine because someone made them up in their head too. I even know what the Wolverine looks like.

A god for every occasion, a god for every individual is how ancient people perceived God. Then along comes Abraham (whose family is in the idol making business), and he realizes that there are not many gods for each, but one God of all. Mankind has always looked to the sciences for information as well. Thankfully, what they did not do is throw away all knowledge and wisdom that did not meet scientific method standards. I do not understand the fear some who love religion have of science. Nor do I understand the fear that some who love science have with religion.

At one time science was enthralled with trying to turn lead into gold, but additional information us away from this. Likewise, at one time belief in a god for every purpose/every person was once embraced...but additional information led us away from this as well.

 

[Meriweather]

You've had an experience with him? Ok, I give up, you win.

And since the earth revolves around the sun, shall I say that you win?

The point is that all through history, even up to the present day, people have had experiences with the supernatural. Science doesn't deal with the supernatural, or with anything that does not have evidential proof. Just as "God" is not the answer to all questions humans have, neither is "Science" the answer to all our questions.

 

[PratchettFan]

Don't you understand that the men of that time were very uneducated, superstitious and curious? For thousands of years they debated this stuff. And what you wrote above was the best those guys could come up with. Today if we started all over, we would be asking the same questions but using science to find the answers, not some ancient made up holy books. You are no different than every other organized/made up religion that came before or after you. The Greeks were very devoted to their gods. Look at how much thought they put into gods. How many gods did they have? One for every occasion. Sort of like an Xman movie. So all this Divine Providence was initially made up and the people who swallowed it passed it on just like a parent passes on a bad genetic gene. Time to change.

If God is real then so is Zeus and the Wolverine because someone made them up in their head too. I even know what the Wolverine looks like.

A god for every occasion, a god for every individual is how ancient people perceived God. Then along comes Abraham (whose family is in the idol making business), and he realizes that there are not many gods for each, but one God of all. Mankind has always looked to the sciences for information as well. Thankfully, what they did not do is throw away all knowledge and wisdom that did not meet scientific method standards. I do not understand the fear some who love religion have of science. Nor do I understand the fear that some who love science have with religion.

At one time science was enthralled with trying to turn lead into gold, but additional information us away from this. Likewise, at one time belief in a god for every purpose/every person was once embraced...but additional information led us away from this as well.

I would agree. I just don't think we have reached the end of this particular journey.

If there is but one God, then someone who experiences God and calls it Allah, or Jehovah or Enlightenment, is simply attempting to express that experience in terms familiar to them. In a manner which makes sense to them, not necessarily as an accurate portrayal of God. If there is but one God, then all religions are correct in the generality and wrong in the specific.

 

[sealybobo]

Don't you understand that the men of that time were very uneducated, superstitious and curious? For thousands of years they debated this stuff. And what you wrote above was the best those guys could come up with. Today if we started all over, we would be asking the same questions but using science to find the answers, not some ancient made up holy books. You are no different than every other organized/made up religion that came before or after you. The Greeks were very devoted to their gods. Look at how much thought they put into gods. How many gods did they have? One for every occasion. Sort of like an Xman movie. So all this Divine Providence was initially made up and the people who swallowed it passed it on just like a parent passes on a bad genetic gene. Time to change.

If God is real then so is Zeus and the Wolverine because someone made them up in their head too. I even know what the Wolverine looks like.

A god for every occasion, a god for every individual is how ancient people perceived God. Then along comes Abraham (whose family is in the idol making business), and he realizes that there are not many gods for each, but one God of all. Mankind has always looked to the sciences for information as well. Thankfully, what they did not do is throw away all knowledge and wisdom that did not meet scientific method standards. I do not understand the fear some who love religion have of science. Nor do I understand the fear that some who love science have with religion.

At one time science was enthralled with trying to turn lead into gold, but additional information us away from this. Likewise, at one time belief in a god for every purpose/every person was once embraced...but additional information led us away from this as well.

What scientific knowledge made us come to the conclusion that there is only one god?

Even God said there were other Gods. Remember? He said don't worship any other gods but me. See God gets jealous. So you know what he did? He killed every other god and sent one to hell and took over their territories and so now Jews in Israel, Christians here and Muslims are all praying to him weather they know it or not. He's the Scarface of Gods.

 

[sealybobo]

You've had an experience with him? Ok, I give up, you win.

And since the earth revolves around the sun, shall I say that you win?

The point is that all through history, even up to the present day, people have had experiences with the supernatural. Science doesn't deal with the supernatural, or with anything that does not have evidential proof. Just as "God" is not the answer to all questions humans have, neither is "Science" the answer to all our questions.

And Bigfoots, and UFO's, and Ghosts, and Witches and Angels and Demons.

If any of these things want to come visit me tonight, bring it! Pussy ghosts!

 

[sealybobo]

Don't you understand that the men of that time were very uneducated, superstitious and curious? For thousands of years they debated this stuff. And what you wrote above was the best those guys could come up with. Today if we started all over, we would be asking the same questions but using science to find the answers, not some ancient made up holy books. You are no different than every other organized/made up religion that came before or after you. The Greeks were very devoted to their gods. Look at how much thought they put into gods. How many gods did they have? One for every occasion. Sort of like an Xman movie. So all this Divine Providence was initially made up and the people who swallowed it passed it on just like a parent passes on a bad genetic gene. Time to change.

If God is real then so is Zeus and the Wolverine because someone made them up in their head too. I even know what the Wolverine looks like.

A god for every occasion, a god for every individual is how ancient people perceived God. Then along comes Abraham (whose family is in the idol making business), and he realizes that there are not many gods for each, but one God of all. Mankind has always looked to the sciences for information as well. Thankfully, what they did not do is throw away all knowledge and wisdom that did not meet scientific method standards. I do not understand the fear some who love religion have of science. Nor do I understand the fear that some who love science have with religion.

At one time science was enthralled with trying to turn lead into gold, but additional information us away from this. Likewise, at one time belief in a god for every purpose/every person was once embraced...but additional information led us away from this as well.

I would agree. I just don't think we have reached the end of this particular journey.

If there is but one God, then someone who experiences God and calls it Allah, or Jehovah or Enlightenment, is simply attempting to express that experience in terms familiar to them. In a manner which makes sense to them, not necessarily as an accurate portrayal of God. If there is but one God, then all religions are correct in the generality and wrong in the specific.

Then why did god/Jesus say only through Christianity can you go to heaven and why did God tell Mohammad to kill infidels and why did God tell Joseph Smith that traditional Christianity was bad and to start a new church, which is the only true church according to the Mormons.

Did they each lie? Because god told each of them they were his favorite. Did he lie to 2 of the 3? I bet you think you are his favorite. LOL.

 

[sealybobo]

Don't you understand that the men of that time were very uneducated, superstitious and curious? For thousands of years they debated this stuff. And what you wrote above was the best those guys could come up with. Today if we started all over, we would be asking the same questions but using science to find the answers, not some ancient made up holy books. You are no different than every other organized/made up religion that came before or after you. The Greeks were very devoted to their gods. Look at how much thought they put into gods. How many gods did they have? One for every occasion. Sort of like an Xman movie. So all this Divine Providence was initially made up and the people who swallowed it passed it on just like a parent passes on a bad genetic gene. Time to change.

If God is real then so is Zeus and the Wolverine because someone made them up in their head too. I even know what the Wolverine looks like.

A god for every occasion, a god for every individual is how ancient people perceived God. Then along comes Abraham (whose family is in the idol making business), and he realizes that there are not many gods for each, but one God of all. Mankind has always looked to the sciences for information as well. Thankfully, what they did not do is throw away all knowledge and wisdom that did not meet scientific method standards. I do not understand the fear some who love religion have of science. Nor do I understand the fear that some who love science have with religion.

At one time science was enthralled with trying to turn lead into gold, but additional information us away from this. Likewise, at one time belief in a god for every purpose/every person was once embraced...but additional information led us away from this as well.

If there is but one God, then all religions are correct in the generality and wrong in the specific.

If? Don't sound so sure all of the sudden. And your statement is false. OR, you are saying that Christians lied when they said that Jesus/God told them he was the ONLY way. Did God/Jesus tell them that or did they make it up? Or is that another allegory or something you guys can explain away. This I gotta hear.

 

[Meriweather]

What scientific knowledge made us come to the conclusion that there is only one god?

We did not get this information from science, but through non-scientific revelation and experience.

Even God said there were other Gods. Remember? He said don't worship any other gods but me. See God gets jealous. So you know what he did? He killed every other god and sent one to hell and took over their territories and so now Jews in Israel, Christians here and Muslims are all praying to him weather they know it or not. He's the Scarface of Gods.

There are gods (idols) and there is God. If we begin with the premise that God is love, then we can see why God would advise us against worshiping other gods. Focus on love, not on money, or power, or beauty or possessions. If we see something other than love, then we are not seeing God clearly.

 

[sealybobo]

What scientific knowledge made us come to the conclusion that there is only one god?

We did not get this information from science, but through non-scientific revelation and experience.

Even God said there were other Gods. Remember? He said don't worship any other gods but me. See God gets jealous. So you know what he did? He killed every other god and sent one to hell and took over their territories and so now Jews in Israel, Christians here and Muslims are all praying to him weather they know it or not. He's the Scarface of Gods.

There are gods (idols) and there is God. If we begin with the premise that God is love, then we can see why God would advise us against worshiping other gods. Focus on love, not on money, or power, or beauty or possessions. If we see something other than love, then we are not seeing God clearly.

Please pass the word on to your Christian friends. When I start seeing them practicing what you preach, maybe I'll change my mind about you all, your religion and your god.

 

[Meriweather]

Then why did god/Jesus say only through Christianity can you go to heaven

Paraphrasing, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except by the way, the truth, and the life." Jesus way was obedience to the Father. He walked in truth. He lived this way of life to the hilt.

This is a bit different than stating one MUST be of the Christian faith.

 

[PratchettFan]

Don't you understand that the men of that time were very uneducated, superstitious and curious? For thousands of years they debated this stuff. And what you wrote above was the best those guys could come up with. Today if we started all over, we would be asking the same questions but using science to find the answers, not some ancient made up holy books. You are no different than every other organized/made up religion that came before or after you. The Greeks were very devoted to their gods. Look at how much thought they put into gods. How many gods did they have? One for every occasion. Sort of like an Xman movie. So all this Divine Providence was initially made up and the people who swallowed it passed it on just like a parent passes on a bad genetic gene. Time to change.

If God is real then so is Zeus and the Wolverine because someone made them up in their head too. I even know what the Wolverine looks like.

A god for every occasion, a god for every individual is how ancient people perceived God. Then along comes Abraham (whose family is in the idol making business), and he realizes that there are not many gods for each, but one God of all. Mankind has always looked to the sciences for information as well. Thankfully, what they did not do is throw away all knowledge and wisdom that did not meet scientific method standards. I do not understand the fear some who love religion have of science. Nor do I understand the fear that some who love science have with religion.

At one time science was enthralled with trying to turn lead into gold, but additional information us away from this. Likewise, at one time belief in a god for every purpose/every person was once embraced...but additional information led us away from this as well.

I would agree. I just don't think we have reached the end of this particular journey.

If there is but one God, then someone who experiences God and calls it Allah, or Jehovah or Enlightenment, is simply attempting to express that experience in terms familiar to them. In a manner which makes sense to them, not necessarily as an accurate portrayal of God. If there is but one God, then all religions are correct in the generality and wrong in the specific.

Then why did god/Jesus say only through Christianity can you go to heaven and why did God tell Mohammad to kill infidels and why did God tell Joseph Smith that traditional Christianity was bad and to start a new church, which is the only true church according to the Mormons.

Did they each lie? Because god told each of them they were his favorite. Did he lie to 2 of the 3? I bet you think you are his favorite. LOL.

I have no idea. Why do you insist in adhering to beliefs you claim you don't have?

 

[PratchettFan]

Don't you understand that the men of that time were very uneducated, superstitious and curious? For thousands of years they debated this stuff. And what you wrote above was the best those guys could come up with. Today if we started all over, we would be asking the same questions but using science to find the answers, not some ancient made up holy books. You are no different than every other organized/made up religion that came before or after you. The Greeks were very devoted to their gods. Look at how much thought they put into gods. How many gods did they have? One for every occasion. Sort of like an Xman movie. So all this Divine Providence was initially made up and the people who swallowed it passed it on just like a parent passes on a bad genetic gene. Time to change.

If God is real then so is Zeus and the Wolverine because someone made them up in their head too. I even know what the Wolverine looks like.

A god for every occasion, a god for every individual is how ancient people perceived God. Then along comes Abraham (whose family is in the idol making business), and he realizes that there are not many gods for each, but one God of all. Mankind has always looked to the sciences for information as well. Thankfully, what they did not do is throw away all knowledge and wisdom that did not meet scientific method standards. I do not understand the fear some who love religion have of science. Nor do I understand the fear that some who love science have with religion.

At one time science was enthralled with trying to turn lead into gold, but additional information us away from this. Likewise, at one time belief in a god for every purpose/every person was once embraced...but additional information led us away from this as well.

If there is but one God, then all religions are correct in the generality and wrong in the specific.

If? Don't sound so sure all of the sudden. And your statement is false. OR, you are saying that Christians lied when they said that Jesus/God told them he was the ONLY way. Did God/Jesus tell them that or did they make it up? Or is that another allegory or something you guys can explain away. This I gotta hear.

You have claimed you understand, or at least follow, science. The fact that you don't does not make you a liar. It just means you don't know what you are talking about. Do you see the difference?

 

[amrchaos]

In order to understand Christian beliefs about Jesus, one should understand how the concept of the Messiah developed in the Old Testament. As part of the coronation ceremony of Israelite kings olive oil was poured on the head of the man being coronated. Thus the king who sat on the throne in Jerusalem was the "anointed one." In Hebrew this is pronounced "Mašíaḥ."

King Saul was the first Mašíaḥ. King David was the second. During his reign David conquered Syria, and three nations in what is now Jordan. These were from north to south, the Ammonites, the Moabites, and the Edomites.

King Solomon was the third Mašíaḥ. However, during the reign of Solomon Syria became independent. During the reign of Solomon's son Rehoboam, ten Israelite tribes seceded from the rule of Rehoboam, and became the Northern Kingdom, henceforth called "Israel." What remained was the Southern Kingdom, henceforth called "Judah."

The three nations in what is now Jordan also became independent. While this was happening, Israel and Judah were threatened by the growing power of Assyria. Assyria was a large Semitic nation in what is now northern Iraq. Assyria eventually destroyed Israel, deported the Israelites who lived there to various parts of the Assyrian Empire, and subjugated Judah.

The concept of the Mašíaḥ began to change. Jews began to want a king who would restore the empire of King David. King Hezekiah tried, and failed, although II Chronicles tries to spin things to make the failure of the Assyrian Army to take Jerusalem seem like a victory.

Finally the Babylonians revolted against Assyria, defeated Assyria, and conquered the same nations that had been part of the Assyrian Empire. Thus began the Babylonian Captivity, and the end of the dynasty established by David.

But the hope for a Mašíaḥ lived on. The Mašíaḥ would be a descendant of King David who would restore his empire.

During his ministry most of Jesus' followers probably hoped that he would liberate them from Roman rule. Instead, Jesus was executed.

Doctrines like the substitutionary atonement are ways to make sense out of the Crucifixion, but they are not reasons for the appeal of Christianity. The appeal of Christianity is the doctrine that Jesus rose from the dead, and that those who believe in him will live with him eternally in Heaven.

Interesting. Nowadays, it seems that most Jews prefer a democracy ver a monarch. Add in the possibility that the majority of Jews could trace their ancestry back to King David or one f his descendants and we could argue that Netanyahu is the latest Messiah--he was chosen to lead Israel?

Then again, maybe the jewish Mašíaḥ is Ben-Gurion? Or any of the other Israeli represents that fought to establish the country.

Look at that--the end times has come and gone and Christians are still looking fr Jesus.

 

[Darlene]

I consider myself irreligious. There are too many "Christian" bigots and hypocrites. Too much judgment passed.
For those who aren't familiar with irreligion: Irreligion - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Irreligion (adjective form: non-religious or irreligious) is the absence of religion, an indifference towards religion, a rejection of religion, or hostility towards religion.[1] When characterized as the rejection of religious belief, it includes explicit atheism, religious dissidence, and secular humanism. When characterized as hostility towards religion, it includes anticlericalism, antireligion, and antitheism. When characterized as indifference to religion, it includes apatheism. When characterized as the absence of religious belief, it may also include deism, implicit atheism, spiritual but not religious, agnosticism, pandeism, ignosticism, nontheism, pantheism, panentheism, religious skepticism, and freethought. Irreligion may include forms of theism, depending on the religious context it is defined against. In 18th-century Europe, the epitome of irreligion was deism.[2]

Big difference between believing in god(s) and being anti religion and not believing any gods exist.

I went from being a Christian to believing in a generic god. But if I don't believe any organized religions, what makes me think the god they tell me exists is even real?

It took meeting a group of atheists and watching the Cosmos every Sunday for me to give up the idea that I had a personal relationship with god. That's why I laugh when people say they had an experience with a loving and powerful being. Sure they did.

I'm not anti religion. I'm just indifferent to religion.

 

[sealybobo]

I consider myself irreligious. There are too many "Christian" bigots and hypocrites. Too much judgment passed.
For those who aren't familiar with irreligion: Irreligion - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Irreligion (adjective form: non-religious or irreligious) is the absence of religion, an indifference towards religion, a rejection of religion, or hostility towards religion.[1] When characterized as the rejection of religious belief, it includes explicit atheism, religious dissidence, and secular humanism. When characterized as hostility towards religion, it includes anticlericalism, antireligion, and antitheism. When characterized as indifference to religion, it includes apatheism. When characterized as the absence of religious belief, it may also include deism, implicit atheism, spiritual but not religious, agnosticism, pandeism, ignosticism, nontheism, pantheism, panentheism, religious skepticism, and freethought. Irreligion may include forms of theism, depending on the religious context it is defined against. In 18th-century Europe, the epitome of irreligion was deism.[2]

Big difference between believing in god(s) and being anti religion and not believing any gods exist.

I went from being a Christian to believing in a generic god. But if I don't believe any organized religions, what makes me think the god they tell me exists is even real?

It took meeting a group of atheists and watching the Cosmos every Sunday for me to give up the idea that I had a personal relationship with god. That's why I laugh when people say they had an experience with a loving and powerful being. Sure they did.

I'm not anti religion. I'm just indifferent to religion.

Did you watch the PBS special last night on ISIS? Are you indifferent to them? What if they started car bombing here in America?

I don't think you are indifferent to religion. I think you are indifferent to religions you feel don't affect your personal life. I disagree I think that ignorance does affect all of us. Maybe not as bad as if you were trying to just live your life in Iraq but certainly this god affects how people vote. Are you pro science, choice or pro gay or pro stem cell research? If you were any of these things you wouldn't be indifferent.

 

[GreatestIam]

So he had a plan but you will not call it predestination, even though it is just that.

There is at least one Christian denomination that centers on this one verse of Paul's. They believe that for each individual God created, He predestined some to hell and some to eternal life. This became known as predestination.

Catholic theology has a different perspective, one that is known as Divine Providence. Divine Providence teaches that God has a plan for humanity, and that He will work with mankind on this pre-planned journey to the ultimate perfection. Divine Providence takes into account free will--that each individual can choose to conform to the predestined plan, or the individual can choose to reject it.

I am sure you can see the difference in the two theologies.

Yes and they are both idiotic.

You can play your semantic garbage games all you like. Intelligent people can see right through you.

Do get on topic and give us an argument showing how good it is to punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

I consider myself irreligious. There are too many "Christian" bigots and hypocrites. Too much judgment passed.
]

+ 1

Religion can kill the spirituality within us.

I hope they did not kill yours. If not then please see these links.

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, then you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. It is to become fully human.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

No predestination then. Good.

That makes this a lie then. Right?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This is not predestination as you understand it, but Divine Providence. No one scriptural verse stands alone, but works with every other one. Paul's point is God's overall vision/plan as well--not that God chooses and condemns specific individuals. Those who enter into God's plan will be conformed according to God's original plan; those who reject God's plan cannot be conformed.

Paul is pointing out that when things seem to be at their worst, God can step in and create something good of it. That was His plan from the beginning.

So he had a plan but you will not call it predestination, even though it is just that.

When you do not want to screw up the English language to suit you beliefs, I am here for you.

Regards
DL

You might be surprised to know you are talking to a teacher. Please give others the benefit of the doubt- yes, us Christians too.

Any teacher that teaches a doctrine that begins with human sacrifice and the notion that it is good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty should lose his or her job for corrupting the morals of minors.

That is child abuse.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

What scientific knowledge made us come to the conclusion that there is only one god?

We did not get this information from science, but through non-scientific revelation and experience.

Even God said there were other Gods. Remember? He said don't worship any other gods but me. See God gets jealous. So you know what he did? He killed every other god and sent one to hell and took over their territories and so now Jews in Israel, Christians here and Muslims are all praying to him weather they know it or not. He's the Scarface of Gods.

There are gods (idols) and there is God. If we begin with the premise that God is love, then we can see why God would advise us against worshiping other gods. Focus on love, not on money, or power, or beauty or possessions. If we see something other than love, then we are not seeing God clearly.

Please pass the word on to your Christian friends. When I start seeing them practicing what you preach, maybe I'll change my mind about you all, your religion and your god.

Now you go too far. How dare you ask that Christians walk their talk?

+ 1

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

[
I'm not anti religion. I'm just indifferent to religion.

In the hopes of changing your indifference to a desire to make a difference I give you the following.

For the evils of religion to grow, read any scripture literally.

Any and all harmless beliefs are allowed by Gnostic Christians. We know that any myth can be internalized for good results and as esoteric ecumenists, we enjoy knowledge of all the myths that man has created about Gods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

When there is a victim is when that view changes. Then you see why Christianity annihilated Gnostic Christianity. We do not let the evils of forced literalism go unopposed. To a tyrant like Constantine, we were poison. One of his first commands to his new Church was to kill off the free thinkers and of course, his new tool, his Church, did as bid. It was quite a ride for free thought for the next 1,000 years.

How can a Gnostic Christian, --- and any other free thinking moral person, --- not judge other's morals when seeing someone hurt other because of the same Church's teachings today?

Can you ignore such things if you have decent morals? Impossible. Especially with Islam pulling the same murderous, freedom stifling ****.

We must discriminate and judge constantly. Every law is a compulsion on all of us to judge.

It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe.

Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2zhlDbMfDg

They also do much harm to their own fellow adherents.
African witches and Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI
Jesus Camp 1of 3
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493
Death to Gays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE

For evil to grow my friend, all good people need do is nothing. Fight literalism when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL