Can Christianity Stand By Itself?

[Delta4Embassy]

Could Christianity exist without Judaism? Could the Bible be the book of Christianity without the OT?

Since Judaism can exist without Christianity, and did until Christianity came along, why does Christianity (or Islam for that matter) need a previous religion to establish it's legitimacy? Isn't a derivitive religion just emphasizing it's illegitimacy by attaching itself to some previous religion?

 

[Taz]

A more appropriate question would be: Why do you obsessively start so many meaningless threads?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

A more appropriate question would be: Why do you obsessively start so many meaningless threads?

Odd isn't it. And on a discussion site too.

 

[Meriweather]

Could Christianity exist without Judaism? Could the Bible be the book of Christianity without the OT?

Since Judaism can exist without Christianity, and did until Christianity came along, why does Christianity (or Islam for that matter) need a previous religion to establish it's legitimacy? Isn't a derivitive religion just emphasizing it's illegitimacy by attaching itself to some previous religion?

Remember, for a short time Christians and Jews worshiped together. Some Jews recognized the more likely possibility of God sending a spiritual messiah than sending an earthly king to rule over the earth. Whether Jews and Christians like it or not, we are rooted in the same tree. Both can now stand alone, but I would not want to do without the Old Testament. Its our roots. May one day our branches intertwine more closely--but I think that will take a lot of time.

I'm not as familiar with Islam, but I understand they feel their branch of the tree formed back in the days of Abraham.

 

[Taz]

A more appropriate question would be: Why do you obsessively start so many meaningless threads?

Odd isn't it. And on a discussion site too.

Obsessive and meaningless don't belong on a discussion site like this. Please get it together.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

A more appropriate question would be: Why do you obsessively start so many meaningless threads?

Odd isn't it. And on a discussion site too.

Obsessive and meaningless don't belong on a discussion site like this. Please get it together.

If you were anyone worth annoying or thinking much about I'd say I'm gonna do it more now. But you're like 1/18th my posts so can't say you rate that highly in my thoughts.

 

[Taz]

A more appropriate question would be: Why do you obsessively start so many meaningless threads?

Odd isn't it. And on a discussion site too.

Obsessive and meaningless don't belong on a discussion site like this. Please get it together.

If you were anyone worth annoying or thinking much about I'd say I'm gonna do it more now. But you're like 1/18th my posts so can't say you rate that highly in my thoughts.

Do it more to annoy me? Shows what an asshole you are. Doesn't annoy me, but it is just a lot of clutter. Try not to litter to much around here please. That's all.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Could Christianity exist without Judaism? Could the Bible be the book of Christianity without the OT?

Since Judaism can exist without Christianity, and did until Christianity came along, why does Christianity (or Islam for that matter) need a previous religion to establish it's legitimacy? Isn't a derivitive religion just emphasizing it's illegitimacy by attaching itself to some previous religion?

Christianity has stood on its own for well over 2000 years, it broke off from Judaism via the Council of Jerusalem around 50 AD. It completely separated itself from the Jewish religion, and today you can tell how different they truly are.

1. Gentiles were released from Jewish custom

The divergence is clearly articulated in Acts 15 - at the "Council of Jerusalem," often pegged at 50 AD - roughly 20 years after the Crucifixion. Acts 15 sets up the situation as follows:

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. ... Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

In a nutshell - it's the old circumcision debate: Do converts need to go under the knife?

Prior to this disagreement, Christians were simply Jews that believed Jesus was the promised Messiah. When the Messiah came, however, he expanded His mission in such a way as to afford salvation to the Gentiles. (See Matthew 28:19-20)

Peter speaks to this issue, recalling the fact that the Gentiles were being added to the mission - first in Acts 10, and now again in Acts 15:

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

That they were included, however, necessarily raised the question of whether or not converts needed to follow all the practices of the Jews. Peter, Paul, Barnabas, and the other apostles were clear that the grace of God implied that Gentiles need not do Jewish custom.

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

It was even suggested that a letter should be written, in which they said:

Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

By exempting the Gentiles from the rest of Jewish practice, a separate identity began to form.

2. The Persecution of the Jews diminished their importance in the Church, and vice versa

With the destruction of the Temple 15 years later, it simply became much harder to become a Jew. As OzTorah writes:

In the post-destruction Jewish community, re-grouping and greater solidarity moved the Judeo-Christian group to the fringes. The earlier latitude towards separatist and fringe groups had become a luxury, especially when the Jesus party increasingly distanced themselves from their fellow Jews. The Judeo-Christians suffered a diminution in numbers and now, though not without an internal struggle, rebuilt and repositioned themselves as an increasingly gentile group, with new adherents directly coming to the new group without having to go through the old one first. They were not a monolithic community; they included at least four sub-groups (Ebionites A, Ebionites B, Nazarenes, Gnostic Sycretists and Elkesaites) – but they, like the Jews, needed to find sufficient unity to plan a secure future.

After much internal debate it became possible for an outsider to become a Christian without ever being part of Judaism, either through genealogy or choice. Could you be a Jew without the Sabbath, festivals, circumcision (Jews were not the only ancient people to view uncircumcision as shameful) and dietary laws? The answer was no – but you could become a Christian. Could you be a Jew without saying Sh’ma Yisra’el – “Hear, O Israel” and proclaiming the absolute invisibility and indivisibility of God? – again no: but you could become a Christian if you accepted the re-worked status of Jesus (developed and taught by Paul and his supporters though not necessarily required by a reading of Jesus’ own words) as messianic and part of divinity.

Sharper language than ever before began to be used in Judaism – it was a time of crisis when it was necessary to know where people stood – and heretics could no longer be treated with kid gloves. About the end of the century the Synagogue liturgy introduced a prayer which came to be known as Birkat HaMinim, the Blessing (Against) the Sectarians. ...

There was no authoritative decision to expel the Christians from Judaism but their exclusion came about gradually. The gentile Christians never were part of Judaism. The Jewish Christians still met halachic (Jewish legal) identity criteria but were excluded from officiating at Jewish worship because they regarded Birkat HaMinim as directed against them – whatever its motives at the time of its formulation – and their books were deemed to lack sanctity. In consequence they felt increasingly unwelcome. Christians were still found in the synagogues at least until the time of Jerome in the fifth century CE. In the second century CE Justin Martyr agreed that Jewish Christians who continued to follow Jewish usages were still to be considered “brethren” but as time went on, pressure was exerted to discourage the practice of Judaism by Christians.

The final break was due to the Romans when Jews (including Jewish Christians) were prohibited from entering Jerusalem; the re-established Jerusalem Church was thus an essentially gentile one

With this polarization, rapid growth outside of Israel (Paul's ministry, in particular, was centered in Turkey and Greece, as evidenced by the fact that Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Phillippi, Colossae, and Thessaly all got their own books of the Bible!), and the persecution of the Jews inside of Israel, led to an imbalance of population.

Basically, the "Jews" dwindled and the "Gentiles" grew. That, coupled with the freedom from the practices of the Jews eventually led to a situation where the church's early identity divested itself of its Jewishness.

3. By the second century, there was hostility

With the firm acceptance of Paul's letters by the end of the first, the anti-Judaizer faction became well entrenched. By the middle of the second Century, some heretics like Marcion were already trying to remove any vestigial Jewish influence. When Marcion produced his first canonical list, for example, the entire Old Testament was relegated to non-canonical status. (Note - Marcionism is considered heretical nowadays, and rejecting the Old Testament is considered heretical, but I point it as way of evidence that the split had already occurred.)

By this time, "Christ-killer" rhetoric and the like, along with regional chauvinism prevailed, and enmity between the Jews and the Christians was mainstream. Modern Judaism took root in the Pharisitcal and Essene movements and followed its own course thereafter.​

history - At what point did Judaism and Christianity diverge - Christianity Stack Exchange​

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Christianity is not autonomous from Judaism so long as the Jewish Bible, the OT is in every version of the Christian Bible, nor is it when Christians quote and use the OT.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Put it this way, how much sense doe sit make to you when Christians say Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and/or God, or a son of God, and if you don't believe that you'll go to hell. Then it their very next breath quote something from the OT, the Jewish religion's holy text which denies the divinity of Jesus?

It's insane.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Islam's even worse utilizing both Christianity and Judaism while saying if not Muslim you're an infidel and killable.

 

[foggedinn]

Could Christianity exist without Judaism? Could the Bible be the book of Christianity without the OT?

Since Judaism can exist without Christianity, and did until Christianity came along, why does Christianity (or Islam for that matter) need a previous religion to establish it's legitimacy? Isn't a derivitive religion just emphasizing it's illegitimacy by attaching itself to some previous religion?

No, and no.
The bible is a history of the alpha and omega preisthood. It began with Adam and ends with rev. 11, the story of the two witnesses. Christianity is just as meamingless

 

[Freewill]

the problem with responding to you is that you don't really want to understand nor do you have a very open mind.

I will give you the answer but not the explanation, something to do with pearls.

So here is your answer: "Do not think that I (Jesus) have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[foggedinn]

Could Christianity exist without Judaism? Could the Bible be the book of Christianity without the OT?

Since Judaism can exist without Christianity, and did until Christianity came along, why does Christianity (or Islam for that matter) need a previous religion to establish it's legitimacy? Isn't a derivitive religion just emphasizing it's illegitimacy by attaching itself to some previous religion?

Judaim is as meaningless without Christianity, as christianity is without the old testament. The alpha and omega preisthood is the same in both testaments. One way one path.

 

[Freewill]

Put it this way, how much sense doe sit make to you when Christians say Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and/or God, or a son of God, and if you don't believe that you'll go to hell. Then it their very next breath quote something from the OT, the Jewish religion's holy text which denies the divinity of Jesus?

It's insane.

Christians say it not because they made it up but because: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Now I am a bit open minded on this.

 

[I.P.Freely]

A more appropriate question would be: Why do you obsessively start so many meaningless threads?

Odd isn't it. And on a discussion site too.

Obsessive and meaningless don't belong on a discussion site like this. Please get it together.

fuck off and play with your toes you goy twerp

 

[Derideo_Te]

Christianity relies upon the "predictions" of the "coming of the messiah" in the OT to legitimize the divinity of Jesus. Without the OT Jesus is just another man who went around telling people to be good.

 

[Freewill]

Put it this way, how much sense doe sit make to you when Christians say Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and/or God, or a son of God, and if you don't believe that you'll go to hell. Then it their very next breath quote something from the OT, the Jewish religion's holy text which denies the divinity of Jesus?

It's insane.

JEWS deny, which was foretold, the OT does not.

44 Prophecies Jesus Christ Fulfilled Prophecies About JesusOld Testament
ScriptureNew Testament
Fulfillment1Messiah would be born of a woman.Genesis 3:15Matthew 1:20
Galatians 4:42
Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.Micah 5:2Matthew 2:1
Luke 2:4-63
Messiah would be born of a virgin.Isaiah 7:14Matthew 1:22-23
Luke 1:26-314
Messiah would come from the line of Abraham.Genesis 12:3
Genesis 22:18Matthew 1:1
Romans 9:55
Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac.Genesis 17:19
Genesis 21:12Luke 3:346
Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob.Numbers 24:17Matthew 1:27Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah.Genesis 49:10Luke 3:33
Hebrews 7:148
Messiah would be heir to King David's throne.2 Samuel 7:12-13
Isaiah 9:7Luke 1:32-33
Romans 1:39
Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal.Psalm 45:6-7
Daniel 2:44Luke 1:33
Hebrews 1:8-1210
Messiah would be called Immanuel.Isaiah 7:14Matthew 1:2311
Messiah would spend a season in Egypt.Hosea 11:1Matthew 2:14-1512A
massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace.Jeremiah 31:15Matthew 2:16-1813
A messenger would prepare the way for MessiahIsaiah 40:3-5Luke 3:3-614
Messiah would be rejected by his own people.Psalm 69:8
Isaiah 53:3John 1:11
John 7:515
Messiah would be a prophet.Deuteronomy 18:15Acts 3:20-2216
Messiah would be preceded by Elijah.Malachi 4:5-6Matthew 11:13-1417
Messiah would be declared the Son of God.Psalm 2:7Matthew 3:16-1718
Messiah would be called a Nazarene.Isaiah 11:1Matthew 2:2319
Messiah would bring light to Galilee.Isaiah 9:1-2Matthew 4:13-1620
Messiah would speak in parables.Psalm 78:2-4
Isaiah 6:9-10Matthew 13:10-15, 34-3521
Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted.Isaiah 61:1-2Luke 4:18-1922
Messiah would be a priest after the order ofMelchizedek.Psalm 110:4Hebrews 5:5-623
Messiah would be called King.Psalm 2:6
Zechariah 9:9Matthew 27:37
Mark 11:7-1124
Messiah would be praised by little children.Psalm 8:2Matthew 21:1625Messiah would be betrayed.Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 11:12-13Luke 22:47-48
Matthew 26:14-1626
Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field.Zechariah 11:12-13Matthew 27:9-1027Messiah would be falsely accused.Psalm 35:11Mark 14:57-5828
Messiah would be silent before his accusers.Isaiah 53:7Mark 15:4-529
Messiah would be spat upon and struck.Isaiah 50:6Matthew 26:6730
Messiah would be hated without cause.Psalm 35:19
Psalm 69:4John 15:24-2531
Messiah would be crucified with criminals.Isaiah 53:12Matthew 27:38
Mark 15:27-2832
Messiah would be given vinegar to drink.Psalm 69:21Matthew 27:34
John 19:28-3033
Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.Psalm 22:16
Zechariah 12:10John 20:25-2734Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed.Psalm 22:7-8Luke 23:3535
Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments.Psalm 22:18Luke 23:34
Matthew 27:35-3636
Messiah's bones would not be broken.Exodus 12:46
Psalm 34:20John 19:33-3637
Messiah would be forsaken by God.Psalm 22:1Matthew 27:4638
Messiah would pray for his enemies.Psalm 109:4Luke 23:3439
Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side.Zechariah 12:10John 19:3440
Messiah would be buried with the rich.Isaiah 53:9Matthew 27:57-6041
Messiah would resurrect from the dead.Psalm 16:10Psalm 49:15Matthew 28:2-7Acts 2:22-3242
Messiah would ascend to heaven.Psalm 24:7-10Mark 16:19
Luke 24:5143
Messiah would be seated at God's right hand.Psalm 68:18
Psalm 110:1Mark 16:19
Matthew 22:4444
Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin.Isaiah 53:5-12Romans 5:6-8

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Put it this way, how much sense doe sit make to you when Christians say Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and/or God, or a son of God, and if you don't believe that you'll go to hell. Then it their very next breath quote something from the OT, the Jewish religion's holy text which denies the divinity of Jesus?

It's insane.

Christians say it not because they made it up but because: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Now I am a bit open minded on this.

For starters Jesus didn't answer anything. Others claimed he did and spoke for him (since he was long dead.) Coulda made anything up and said "Jesus said this..." or Jesus did that. Not like anyone ever invented religion and pulled miracles out of their hat or anything...

 

[Delta4Embassy]

If prone to giving religious writers the benefit of the doubt and believing their writings, where do you stop giving them that benefit? If Jesus was this that and the other thing, then why isn't Islam credible? Or Mormonism, they talk about Jesus too.