Cassius Clay An Icon?

[Tom Horn]

I could easily make the same argument that the cowards were those too afraid to stand up to the government for what was right.

Sure, you can dream up anything you please but the fact of the matter was not taking the step forward would land you in Leavenworth for 5 years and if you survived that (draft-dodgers got jumped and rightfully so), your life on the outside would be ruined. Clay would have gotten the same kind of duty as Elvis did....a gig in Germany putting on boxing exhibits. Instead he spit in his country's face. I'm a codger and lived through all that somehow....I don't forget and I don't forgive what he did.

 

[Pogo]

I could easily make the same argument that the cowards were those too afraid to stand up to the government for what was right.

Sure, you can dream up anything you please but the fact of the matter was not taking the step forward would land you in Leavenworth for 5 years and if you survived that (draft-dodgers got jumped and rightfully so), your life on the outside would be ruined. Clay would have gotten the same kind of duty as Elvis did....a gig in Germany putting on boxing exhibits. Instead he spit in his country's face. I'm a codger and lived through all that somehow....I don't forget and I don't forgive what he did.

Actually the fact of the matter is that if enough guys refused the same way --- there wouldn't have been a Leavenworth big enough. They would have had no choice but to back down.

Perhaps you can explain this: "draft-dodgers got jumped and rightfully so"

Perhaps not.

 

[Harry Dresden]

I'll see your black eyes and raise ya a broken jaw....Clay's.

and that happened early in the fight.....Ali proved he could take a punch....including Ernie Shavers....

 

[Fenton Lum]

We have. And nothing changed. The beast learned a lot from that episode. That's why there's no draft, the public wouldn't tolerate what we're up to now with endless war of capitalist colonial aggression. That's also why you see no body bags coming back on TV every night these days. Out of sight out of mind. Meawhile, 22 vets commit suicide daily.

Those COMBAT Vets end their lives because leftist trash has labeled them "losers" or "psychos" and left them little alternatives to once again be regular Americans. I'm sure you're proud of yourself spouting leftist garbage while knowing you'd never be man enough to wear the uniform or cock a rifle in defense of the nation you claim is your heritage.

Actually no, those COMBAT Vets lost their lives because civilian government officials elected from “both” parties sent them out into a place they had no real need to be other than empire, ostensibly to “free” people from “communism” where people are allegedly unable to freely criticize their govt, which you’re extremely uncomfortable with Americans doing. If questioning the govt is “leftist”, then you can sneer names around all you like, many don’t give a fuck about your labels, they’re meaningless. I’m sorry your manhood got connected to uniforms and guns, but somehow that got all wrapped up in your heritage apparently. Viet Nam had absolutely nothing to do with defense. As for what vets experience upon returning home? Yeah, that should be a national shame, 22 a day commit suicide at the moment. But in your mind, that’s all on “leftists”, which is a cop out on your part. But ultimately you’re right, I will not “defend” the aristocracy just because they send folks off to die to protect corporate access to global markets and resources, that ain’t defense. And in America we’re allegedly free to disagree with our govt, no? Ain’t that a large part of why we’re so very special?

 

[Snouter]

The dude was overrated. He would have been killed by Mike Tyson. His political bullshit was just that, bullshit.

 

[Fenton Lum]

We have. And nothing changed. The beast learned a lot from that episode. That's why there's no draft, the public wouldn't tolerate what we're up to now with endless war of capitalist colonial aggression. That's also why you see no body bags coming back on TV every night these days. Out of sight out of mind. Meawhile, 22 vets commit suicide daily.

Those COMBAT Vets end their lives because leftist trash has labeled them "losers" or "psychos" and left them little alternatives to once again be regular Americans. I'm sure you're proud of yourself spouting leftist garbage while knowing you'd never be man enough to wear the uniform or cock a rifle in defense of the nation you claim is your heritage.

You seem to be incapable of assigning responsibility. Or perhaps like to play loosely with it.

When Ali conscientiously objects to a war, somehow you want to assign "sending somebody else in his place" to the CO (Ali) -- instead of the government actually responsible for it.
-- When that same government grinds up its blood and treasure and tosses them on the scrap heap to be neglected after their sacrifice, you want to blame "leftists".

Seems you want to blame everybody except the entity that actually took those actions --- the government.

What are you, some kind of Statist?

"Leftists", "minorties"/"blacks", "commies", "socialists", just neveer question america and american society, or the white male power structure.

 

[Fenton Lum]

The dude was overrated. He would have been killed by Mike Tyson. His political bullshit was just that, bullshit.

Ha ha ha ha, Tyson? Jesus.

 

[Fenton Lum]

You seem to be incapable of assigning responsibility. Or perhaps like to play loosely with it.

When Ali conscientiously objects to a war, somehow you want to assign "sending somebody else in his place" to the CO (Ali) -- instead of the government actually responsible for it.
-- When that same government grinds up its blood and treasure and tosses them on the scrap heap to be neglected after their sacrifice, you want to blame "leftists".

Seems you want to blame everybody except the entity that actually took those actions --- the government.

What are you, some kind of Statist?

Playing possum are we? Of course somebody else went in his place...that's how numbers work or did for your hero LBJ who made his buddy a fortune years in advance of his buildup for dredging Cam Ranh Bay so US ships could port there. Draftees don't get to choose what war they're willing to sign up for...not how it works...even an old draft-dodging hippie like you knows that or should. Clay was hardly a CO considering he was willing to beat a man half to death inside the turnbuckles. Your rant about our government and war is typical leftist trash...why do you continue to live in a country you revile....can't afford passage to Cuba?

He was willing to earn his own living inside the turnbuckels and never killed someone he didn't know on a rich man's fool's errand. Had his politics been different you'd be here foaming at the mouth to defend him. That's all this is about. He wouldn't stay in his place.

 

[Pogo]

The dude was overrated. He would have been killed by Mike Tyson. His political bullshit was just that, bullshit.

It was in effect the same thing this guy did, exactly 27 years ago today:

 

[whitehall]

Ali was perhaps the greatest boxer in history and all the low information left wants to remember is the fact that he dodged the draft and converted to Islam. Pretty strange.

 

[Pogo]

Ali was perhaps the greatest boxer in history and all the low information left wants to remember is the fact that he dodged the draft and converted to Islam. Pretty strange.

And here they are now, this "low information left" ......

Was he still a member of the nation of islam? If he was he was a racist and a hater.....

Post number three.

And he was a yellow, draft-dodging coward who we may forget got somebody else sent to Vietnam in his place.

Post number one. The OP.

Well, you had the 'low information' part right anyway. For you that's progress.

 

[georgephillip]

Larry Holmes gave him the beating he'd had coming for his whole life and gave him the brain damage that finally shut his mouth. While I took no pleasure in seeing him turned into a vegetable, it didn't make me sad either because I had no respect for him.....none. Was he an icon?....for what?

For speaking truth to power, Fool
"At that point in Ali’s career, he was virtually unbeatable.

"Ali-Folley would be his seventh championship defence in less than a year and his final bout before a three-and-a-half-year exile from boxing.

"The war in Vietnam was at its peak.

"The National Selective Service Presidential Appeal Board had voted unanimously to maintain Muhammad’s eligibility for the military draft, and he’d been ordered to report for induction in April.

"The assumption was that he would refuse induction.

"Ali himself had hinted as much when he said, 'Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on brown people in Vietnam, while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs?'”

Muhammad Ali: the man behind the towering social and political figure | Thomas Hauser

btw, he would've punched your lights out before your boot left the ground.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

'Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on brown people in Vietnam, while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs?'”

But in the meantime, it was OK for him to beat the brains out of other black people.

 

[georgephillip]

'Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on brown people in Vietnam, while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs?'”

But in the meantime, it was OK for him to beat the brains out of other black people.

Only if he agreed to ducking women and kids???

 

[Snouter]

Anyone know the percentage of whitey in Mr. Ali's ancestry? Not to be racist but he would have looked and talked like George Frazier if he didn't, who he called a "gorilla."

 

[georgephillip]

Anyone know the percentage of whitey in Mr. Ali's ancestry? Not to be racist but he would have looked and talked like George Frazier if he didn't, who he called a "gorilla."

"In a matchup of two undefeated future hall-of-famers, undisputed heavyweight champion Joe Frazier and the number one ranked heavyweight George Foreman reached an agreement in November 1972 for a January title fight in Jamaica's National Stadium. Frazier was 29–0 and had won 11 consecutive heavyweight title fights at the time of his match with Foreman, first winning the NYSAC heavyweight title in 1968 and defending that title six times before knocking out Jimmy Ellis to claim the vacant WBA and WBC titles in 1970 that had been stripped fromMuhammad Ali."
Joe Frazier vs. George Foreman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tyroneweaver]

I've never called him "Ali" and never will. He says that Clay was his "slave name" which must have made his parents bust with pride. What he was and wasn't carry equal weight. He was a great fighter, a fighter like the world had never seen before. And he was a yellow, draft-dodging coward who we may forget got somebody else sent to Vietnam in his place. Was he the greatest ever? Who knows....many think Rocky Marciano would have knocked his block off . His claim to fame was most of the white world wanted to see him get his block knocked off to shut his mouth whether we admit it or not.

Was he sane? Hard to say....He threw his Olympic gold medal into a river because somebody called him a "n1gger". He converted to islam and devoted himself to Elijah Muhammed, the man who had Malcolm X assassinated and despised the white man. And took a princely sum of Clay's fight purses. And somehow, unlike other traitors, never had to serve a prison sentence for refusing the step forward to serve the country that made him rich and famous.

I saw Clay once here in Phoenix back in 1976. Drove past some mosque downtown in my white Coup deVille and there he was outside with a bunch of little muslims wearing blue suits, standing at attention. We made eye-contact briefly. He was bigger than I'd suspected having only seen him on TV....I wondered if I could boot him in the chest before he landed a punch on me was one recollection of that moment. He may have been a muslim but he still appreciated a fine Cadillac was the other.

Larry Holmes gave him the beating he'd had coming for his whole life and gave him the brain damage that finally shut his mouth. While I took no pleasure in seeing him turned into a vegetable, it didn't make me sad either because I had no respect for him.....none. Was he an icon?....for what?

Tyson is his prime and Ali in his prime
Could have been epic.

 

[tyroneweaver]

when Ali fought holmes he was 38....you could have probably beat him...if he was 10 years younger it probably would have been a different story or at least larry's age at the time....

Clay went in the ring with Holmes because the leaches that were his entourage got most of his money over the years. Larry Holmes hated Clay and could have taken him out in the second or third round...but didn't to punish him. Kenny Norton whipped his ass too as did Frazier and so would have George Foreman if his water bottle hadn't been laced with a sedative in Zaire.

I don't believe anything in this paragraph.

 

[Harry Dresden]

when Ali fought holmes he was 38....you could have probably beat him...if he was 10 years younger it probably would have been a different story or at least larry's age at the time....

Clay went in the ring with Holmes because the leaches that were his entourage got most of his money over the years. Larry Holmes hated Clay and could have taken him out in the second or third round...but didn't to punish him. Kenny Norton whipped his ass too as did Frazier and so would have George Foreman if his water bottle hadn't been laced with a sedative in Zaire.

I don't believe anything in this paragraph.

tom is just another who cant separate boxing from the guys personal life.....so he doesnt like Ali so that means he wasnt a great fighter and all these guys kicked his ass....same shit happened with Ty Cobb....Joe Jackson and Pete Rose.....

 

[Vigilante]

He was a fucking RACIST, a WHITE HATER, and an ignorant asswipe with this statement!