Both Sides of the Gun Debate Need to Listen to This

[2aguy]

But my owning a gun does not infringe on your right to life or any of your other rights.
The fact that I own guns in no way affects you and there is no proof that you can give to the contrary

Untrue:

• About 1.4 million firearms were stolen during household burglaries and other property crimes over the six-year period from 2005 through 2010, according to a report released by the Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).
• Guns kill nearly 1,300 US children each year
• According to the CDC, in 2011†, of 32,351 deaths due to firearms, 591 deaths were due to "accidental discharge"
• Last year, CityLab took a brief look at the disturbingly high number of accidental firearm discharges that take place in public bathroomsacross the United States. There were reports of accidental gunfire in bathrooms at a Walmart, a hotel, a grocery store, an Internet cafe, and a Carl's Jr. (The roundup somehow missed this one at an Irish pub in Florida.) In most cases, the self-inflicted victims were pulling up or lowering their pants when their concealed weapon fell out, hit the floor, and fired.

No...guns do not kill 1,300 children each year, that is a lie......I link to the CDC WISQARs site.....where they provide death statistics...tell me where they get 1,300 from those statistics......

From the actual CDC, not an anti-gun propaganda site.......

Children murdered with guns....versus other methods..

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
2016....
Murder with guns...kids, 238
<1.......11
1-4.......64
5-9......68
10-14....95

Other means........674
<1-14
674

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
2016:

2016: Kids ( <1 to age 14)
Total guns: ......74
Total Cars: 1,261




Suffocation: 1,215

Drowning: 713

Poisoning: 84

Traffic: 1,261

Guns: 74

<1......1
1-4.....34
5-9.....16
10-14....23

Under age drinking:

Underage Drinking-Why Do Adolescents Drink, What Are the Risks, and How Can Underage Drinking Be Prevented?

Each year, approximately 5,000 young people under the age of 21 die as a result of underage drinking; this includes about 1,900 deaths from motor vehicle crashes, 1,600 as a result of homicides, 300 from suicide, as well as hundreds from other injuries such as falls, burns, and drownings (1–5).

 

[alang1216]

I don't guess you realize that in many circumstances you don't have to determine if someone could pass a background check before legally selling them a gun.

If you are speaking of the gun show loophole, that’s been proven a myth.

Yes and no. I have it on good authority that:
"There is a huge loophole in federal law, but it isn't for gun shows," UCLA law professor Adam Winkler said. "What is called the gun-show loophole is misnamed. It should be the ‘private sale loophole’ or the ‘background check loophole.’ ... The reason people talk about gun shows is that they are easily accessible marketplaces for people who don't want to be subject to a background check to find non-licensed gun sellers."

And yet it isn't a loophole....guns are private property and you are free to sell your private, Constitutionally Protected, property without government monitoring you...should they also monitor what books you write and sell, or how you vote....?

Also, we already can arrest any felon who buys, owns or carries any gun, purchased anywhere, at any time...that isn't the problem..the problem is that after they are arrested for illegal gun possession as convicted felons....democrat judges let them out of jail on light sentences over and over again....if we stopped that, we would reduce our gun crime rates even more than we already have...

Why don't you focus on the real problem...democrats letting repeat, violent gun offenders out of jail over and over?

And, of course, since universal background checks will be gotten around the same way current federal background checks are gotten around by felons....using straw buyers......the only reason the anti-gun leadership wants universal background checks is because it gives them the power to demand gun registration.....that is the only reason they want UBCs.....

And no....felons get their guns using friends and family with clean records who can already pass background checks....

If you want to do more security theater...have police conduct undercover sales at gun shows.....that is how you do it without bothering law abiding gun owners...but since your goal is to bother law abiding gun owners, you won't focus on actual criminals.

It doesn't seem to be such a burden on the gun seller to require him to verify that the buyer is eligible to be a gun owner.

 

[2aguy]

But my owning a gun does not infringe on your right to life or any of your other rights.
The fact that I own guns in no way affects you and there is no proof that you can give to the contrary

Untrue:

• About 1.4 million firearms were stolen during household burglaries and other property crimes over the six-year period from 2005 through 2010, according to a report released by the Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).
• Guns kill nearly 1,300 US children each year
• According to the CDC, in 2011†, of 32,351 deaths due to firearms, 591 deaths were due to "accidental discharge"
• Last year, CityLab took a brief look at the disturbingly high number of accidental firearm discharges that take place in public bathroomsacross the United States. There were reports of accidental gunfire in bathrooms at a Walmart, a hotel, a grocery store, an Internet cafe, and a Carl's Jr. (The roundup somehow missed this one at an Irish pub in Florida.) In most cases, the self-inflicted victims were pulling up or lowering their pants when their concealed weapon fell out, hit the floor, and fired.

You are comparing suicide by gun, murder with gun to car accidents.....that is the only way you can get the number for gun deaths...when the actual murder number for guns is 11,004 in 2016......accidental car deaths 2016.....38,748

To compare accidental death to accidental death? Gun accidental death....495 Car accidental death...38,748

This is why we don't trust you guys....you lie.....about every aspect of gun ownership in this country.

Accidental gun death number while over 17 million people carry guns for self defense....2016...495.

Accidental car death....38,748

It isn't the death that bothers you, it is the fact that people own and carry guns...since the death rate of so many other things in life are so much higher than gun deaths...


Your number from 2011........591 It would be nice if you linked to your source......notice it has gone down since 2011....

How about after millions more people own and carry guns...

2016....from the CDC

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748

 

[2aguy]

I don't guess you realize that in many circumstances you don't have to determine if someone could pass a background check before legally selling them a gun.

If you are speaking of the gun show loophole, that’s been proven a myth.

Yes and no. I have it on good authority that:
"There is a huge loophole in federal law, but it isn't for gun shows," UCLA law professor Adam Winkler said. "What is called the gun-show loophole is misnamed. It should be the ‘private sale loophole’ or the ‘background check loophole.’ ... The reason people talk about gun shows is that they are easily accessible marketplaces for people who don't want to be subject to a background check to find non-licensed gun sellers."

And yet it isn't a loophole....guns are private property and you are free to sell your private, Constitutionally Protected, property without government monitoring you...should they also monitor what books you write and sell, or how you vote....?

Also, we already can arrest any felon who buys, owns or carries any gun, purchased anywhere, at any time...that isn't the problem..the problem is that after they are arrested for illegal gun possession as convicted felons....democrat judges let them out of jail on light sentences over and over again....if we stopped that, we would reduce our gun crime rates even more than we already have...

Why don't you focus on the real problem...democrats letting repeat, violent gun offenders out of jail over and over?

And, of course, since universal background checks will be gotten around the same way current federal background checks are gotten around by felons....using straw buyers......the only reason the anti-gun leadership wants universal background checks is because it gives them the power to demand gun registration.....that is the only reason they want UBCs.....

And no....felons get their guns using friends and family with clean records who can already pass background checks....

If you want to do more security theater...have police conduct undercover sales at gun shows.....that is how you do it without bothering law abiding gun owners...but since your goal is to bother law abiding gun owners, you won't focus on actual criminals.

It doesn't seem to be such a burden on the gun seller to require him to verify that the buyer is eligible to be a gun owner.

Yes...it is.....if you live in a place where there are few gun stores...like Chicago where there are none....you have to travel 30 miles to get to a gun store to do a background check......and then you will have to pay for that check....

And since we can already arrest felons who buy guns, or carry them or use them in crime, this is an unnecessary burden on law abiding people.......the only reason is to force gun registration.

 

[alang1216]

while you ignore the 38,000 people accidentally killed in cars...

Who is ignoring? Cars are MUCH safer today than when I was a kid and I think most of that was gov't regulation. I've given up my right to smash into unpadded, metal dashboard but I'm fine with that.

 

[2aguy]

while you ignore the 38,000 people accidentally killed in cars...

Who is ignoring? Cars are MUCH safer today than when I was a kid and I think most of that was gov't regulation. I've given up my right to smash into unpadded, metal dashboard but I'm fine with that.

So are guns. and guns kill fewer people than cars do....

 

[Flash]

But my owning a gun does not infringe on your right to life or any of your other rights.
The fact that I own guns in no way affects you and there is no proof that you can give to the contrary

Untrue:

• About 1.4 million firearms were stolen during household burglaries and other property crimes over the six-year period from 2005 through 2010, according to a report released by the Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).
• Guns kill nearly 1,300 US children each year
• According to the CDC, in 2011†, of 32,351 deaths due to firearms, 591 deaths were due to "accidental discharge"
• Last year, CityLab took a brief look at the disturbingly high number of accidental firearm discharges that take place in public bathroomsacross the United States. There were reports of accidental gunfire in bathrooms at a Walmart, a hotel, a grocery store, an Internet cafe, and a Carl's Jr. (The roundup somehow missed this one at an Irish pub in Florida.) In most cases, the self-inflicted victims were pulling up or lowering their pants when their concealed weapon fell out, hit the floor, and fired.

You are comparing suicide by gun, murder with gun to car accidents.....that is the only way you can get the number for gun deaths...when the actual murder number for guns is 11,004 in 2016......accidental car deaths 2016.....38,748

To compare accidental death to accidental death? Gun accidental death....495 Car accidental death...38,748

This is why we don't trust you guys....you lie.....about every aspect of gun ownership in this country.

Accidental gun death number while over 17 million people carry guns for self defense....2016...495.

Accidental car death....38,748

It isn't the death that bothers you, it is the fact that people own and carry guns...since the death rate of so many other things in life are so much higher than gun deaths...


Your number from 2011........591 It would be nice if you linked to your source......notice it has gone down since 2011....

How about after millions more people own and carry guns...

2016....from the CDC

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748

You always give the Moon Bats facts and they always ignore the facts.

 

[Flash]

while you ignore the 38,000 people accidentally killed in cars...

Who is ignoring? Cars are MUCH safer today than when I was a kid and I think most of that was gov't regulation. I've given up my right to smash into unpadded, metal dashboard but I'm fine with that.

So are guns. and guns kill fewer people than cars do....

Not to be flippant to your excellent point but guns don't kill anybody. Gang bankers, druggies, illegals, thugs and crazies kill people, mostly each other.

 

[Pop23]

I don't guess you realize that in many circumstances you don't have to determine if someone could pass a background check before legally selling them a gun.

If you are speaking of the gun show loophole, that’s been proven a myth.

Yes and no. I have it on good authority that:
"There is a huge loophole in federal law, but it isn't for gun shows," UCLA law professor Adam Winkler said. "What is called the gun-show loophole is misnamed. It should be the ‘private sale loophole’ or the ‘background check loophole.’ ... The reason people talk about gun shows is that they are easily accessible marketplaces for people who don't want to be subject to a background check to find non-licensed gun sellers."

And yet it isn't a loophole....guns are private property and you are free to sell your private, Constitutionally Protected, property without government monitoring you...should they also monitor what books you write and sell, or how you vote....?

Also, we already can arrest any felon who buys, owns or carries any gun, purchased anywhere, at any time...that isn't the problem..the problem is that after they are arrested for illegal gun possession as convicted felons....democrat judges let them out of jail on light sentences over and over again....if we stopped that, we would reduce our gun crime rates even more than we already have...

Why don't you focus on the real problem...democrats letting repeat, violent gun offenders out of jail over and over?

And, of course, since universal background checks will be gotten around the same way current federal background checks are gotten around by felons....using straw buyers......the only reason the anti-gun leadership wants universal background checks is because it gives them the power to demand gun registration.....that is the only reason they want UBCs.....

And no....felons get their guns using friends and family with clean records who can already pass background checks....

If you want to do more security theater...have police conduct undercover sales at gun shows.....that is how you do it without bothering law abiding gun owners...but since your goal is to bother law abiding gun owners, you won't focus on actual criminals.

It doesn't seem to be such a burden on the gun seller to require him to verify that the buyer is eligible to be a gun owner.

Good lord. Do you think criminals care?

Really?

 

[Pop23]

while you ignore the 38,000 people accidentally killed in cars...

Who is ignoring? Cars are MUCH safer today than when I was a kid and I think most of that was gov't regulation. I've given up my right to smash into unpadded, metal dashboard but I'm fine with that.

You realize that your are making an argument that doesn’t work, right?

We are talking gun registration and licensing.

As pointed out many times. Gun purchases are exponentially more regulated.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I pose no risk to you at all.
And it's not my obligation to make you safer.
It's your obligation to protect yourself.
The only way you would be in danger from me or my actions is if you assaulted me or my wife.

I do not carry a weapon to save other people. I'm not a cop. I do not want to be a cop.

There is a 0% chance your guns will be stolen?
There is a 0% chance you will have some kind of accident with one of your guns?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in the mistaken idea that you are in danger?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in self defense and an innocent bystander will accidentally be shot?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in self defense and shoot the wrong person in a case of mistaken identity?

Unless you are perfect and can answer "yes" to all these questions, you pose a very small but very real threat to me and my family.

I can answer yes

I have 3+ decades handling and shooting guns of many types.

My guns when not in use are stored in a 600 lb safe that is anchored into 4 feet of concrete in my basement. I actually had the safe put in before the foundation was poured and it's not coming out without jackhammers. And if anyone does get it out of the concrete it will not fit in the stairway and did I mention it weighs 600 lbs ?

When I'm not home I have a monitored alarm set. I also set it at night when I'm in bed.

There is no way in hell anyone is going to steal my firearms.

And if I ever do draw my weapon in self defense I will shoot the right person. I am a dead shot at 40 feet with my carry gun and any self defense situation will be much much closer than that. I carry a 10 mm these days and it will only take 1 shot to the body to stop anyone.

And I have more of a chance getting killed by one of your kids or grandkids texting while driving that you do of me shooting you.

Is it reasonable for me to deny them all driving privileges until that chance is 0%

 

[alang1216]

It doesn't seem to be such a burden on the gun seller to require him to verify that the buyer is eligible to be a gun owner.

Yes...it is.....if you live in a place where there are few gun stores...like Chicago where there are none....you have to travel 30 miles to get to a gun store to do a background check......and then you will have to pay for that check....

And since we can already arrest felons who buy guns, or carry them or use them in crime, this is an unnecessary burden on law abiding people.......the only reason is to force gun registration.

I'm OK with UBCs and registration. I don't think either is or should be a burden.
I'm OK with guns for hunting, recreation, and self-defense provided the user is not a criminal or incompetent.
I'm OK with concealed carry but it should be a local decision.

I'm not OK with open carry but I think it should be a local decision.
I'm not OK with large capacity magazines, automatic weapons, or bumpstocks.

 

[alang1216]

As pointed out many times. Gun purchases are exponentially more regulated.

More regulated than cars? How so?

 

[alang1216]

I pose no risk to you at all.
And it's not my obligation to make you safer.
It's your obligation to protect yourself.
The only way you would be in danger from me or my actions is if you assaulted me or my wife.

I do not carry a weapon to save other people. I'm not a cop. I do not want to be a cop.

There is a 0% chance your guns will be stolen?
There is a 0% chance you will have some kind of accident with one of your guns?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in the mistaken idea that you are in danger?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in self defense and an innocent bystander will accidentally be shot?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in self defense and shoot the wrong person in a case of mistaken identity?

Unless you are perfect and can answer "yes" to all these questions, you pose a very small but very real threat to me and my family.

I can answer yes

I have 3+ decades handling and shooting guns of many types.

My guns when not in use are stored in a 600 lb safe that is anchored into 4 feet of concrete in my basement. I actually had the safe put in before the foundation was poured and it's not coming out without jackhammers. And if anyone does get it out of the concrete it will not fit in the stairway and did I mention it weighs 600 lbs ?

When I'm not home I have a monitored alarm set. I also set it at night when I'm in bed.

There is no way in hell anyone is going to steal my firearms.

And if I ever do draw my weapon in self defense I will shoot the right person. I am a dead shot at 40 feet with my carry gun and any self defense situation will be much much closer than that. I carry a 10 mm these days and it will only take 1 shot to the body to stop anyone.

And I have more of a chance getting killed by one of your kids or grandkids texting while driving that you do of me shooting you.

Is it reasonable for me to deny them all driving privileges until that chance is 0%

I think being overconfident is a danger but you're right about the chance of getting killed by a car is a bigger risk. I'm happy to entertain solutions short of banning them from driving. That is not a solution I've supported for guns.

 

[alang1216]

and guns kill fewer people than cars do....

And cribs kill fewer babies than guns do but I still support regulations to make cribs as safe as practically possible.

 

[alang1216]

No...guns do not kill 1,300 children each year, that is a lie......I link to the CDC WISQARs site.....where they provide death statistics...tell me where they get 1,300 from those statistics.......

I was unable to confirm your numbers but here is where I got mine.

 

[Pop23]

As pointed out many times. Gun purchases are exponentially more regulated.

More regulated than cars? How so?

Gun Purchases require a background check. Cars require none.

Gun purchases require a license. Cars require none

Many localities (if not all) have an age limit to buy a gun, there is no such limit on guns

Felons cannot buy a gun, they can buy a car

so now you agree, I take it?

 

[Skull Pilot]

I pose no risk to you at all.
And it's not my obligation to make you safer.
It's your obligation to protect yourself.
The only way you would be in danger from me or my actions is if you assaulted me or my wife.

I do not carry a weapon to save other people. I'm not a cop. I do not want to be a cop.

There is a 0% chance your guns will be stolen?
There is a 0% chance you will have some kind of accident with one of your guns?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in the mistaken idea that you are in danger?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in self defense and an innocent bystander will accidentally be shot?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in self defense and shoot the wrong person in a case of mistaken identity?

Unless you are perfect and can answer "yes" to all these questions, you pose a very small but very real threat to me and my family.

I can answer yes

I have 3+ decades handling and shooting guns of many types.

My guns when not in use are stored in a 600 lb safe that is anchored into 4 feet of concrete in my basement. I actually had the safe put in before the foundation was poured and it's not coming out without jackhammers. And if anyone does get it out of the concrete it will not fit in the stairway and did I mention it weighs 600 lbs ?

When I'm not home I have a monitored alarm set. I also set it at night when I'm in bed.

There is no way in hell anyone is going to steal my firearms.
fatal accident
And if I ever do draw my weapon in self defense I will shoot the right person. I am a dead shot at 40 feet with my carry gun and any self defense situation will be much much closer than that. I carry a 10 mm these days and it will only take 1 shot to the body to stop anyone.

And I have more of a chance getting killed by one of your kids or grandkids texting while driving that you do of me shooting you.

Is it reasonable for me to deny them all driving privileges until that chance is 0%

I think being overconfident is a danger but you're right about the chance of getting killed by a car is a bigger risk. I'm happy to entertain solutions short of banning them from driving. That is not a solution I've supported for guns.

If you're going to set your standard at a 0% accident rate you might as well buy a bullet, rent a gun and kill yourself now because there is not a zero chance that getting out of bed won't result in a fatal accident

 

[Pop23]

I pose no risk to you at all.
And it's not my obligation to make you safer.
It's your obligation to protect yourself.
The only way you would be in danger from me or my actions is if you assaulted me or my wife.

I do not carry a weapon to save other people. I'm not a cop. I do not want to be a cop.

There is a 0% chance your guns will be stolen?
There is a 0% chance you will have some kind of accident with one of your guns?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in the mistaken idea that you are in danger?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in self defense and an innocent bystander will accidentally be shot?
There is a 0% chance you will use a gun in self defense and shoot the wrong person in a case of mistaken identity?

Unless you are perfect and can answer "yes" to all these questions, you pose a very small but very real threat to me and my family.

I can answer yes

I have 3+ decades handling and shooting guns of many types.

My guns when not in use are stored in a 600 lb safe that is anchored into 4 feet of concrete in my basement. I actually had the safe put in before the foundation was poured and it's not coming out without jackhammers. And if anyone does get it out of the concrete it will not fit in the stairway and did I mention it weighs 600 lbs ?

When I'm not home I have a monitored alarm set. I also set it at night when I'm in bed.

There is no way in hell anyone is going to steal my firearms.
fatal accident
And if I ever do draw my weapon in self defense I will shoot the right person. I am a dead shot at 40 feet with my carry gun and any self defense situation will be much much closer than that. I carry a 10 mm these days and it will only take 1 shot to the body to stop anyone.

And I have more of a chance getting killed by one of your kids or grandkids texting while driving that you do of me shooting you.

Is it reasonable for me to deny them all driving privileges until that chance is 0%

I think being overconfident is a danger but you're right about the chance of getting killed by a car is a bigger risk. I'm happy to entertain solutions short of banning them from driving. That is not a solution I've supported for guns.

If you're going to set your standard at a 0% accident rate you might as well buy a bullet, rent a gun and kill yourself now because there is not a zero chance that getting out of bed won't result in a fatal accident

Are their really people in the world that are this paranoid?

His chances of getting killed by a family member hopped up on an antidepressant (by dozens of means) are exponentially higher than from a stolen gun.

 

[alang1216]

As pointed out many times. Gun purchases are exponentially more regulated.

More regulated than cars? How so?

Gun Purchases require a background check. Cars require none.

Gun purchases require a license. Cars require none

Many localities (if not all) have an age limit to buy a gun, there is no such limit on guns

Felons cannot buy a gun, they can buy a car

so now you agree, I take it?

Not all gun purchases require a background check or a a license but yes, you're correct that gun purchases are more regulated. Exponentially though I don't know about that.

On the other hand the use of cars is exponentially more regulated.