Are You For Increasing The Debt Limit?

[Epsilon Delta]

Wait, wait, really, before we go any further, I'm kinda wondering- do any of you on the "no" side have any, you know, any idea of what can happen if they freeze the debt ceiling? I mean, repeating fancy slogans like "live within our means" and talking about "future generations" is all fine and dandy and, but I'm talking about what actually will happen to the economy, to the the unemployment rate, to the financial markets, you know to those sort of things? I mean, all this time I thought the GOP was the party of business...

Personally, I don't see it as a question of 'for' or 'against,' I mean, it's something that has to happen, for all of our sakes. But I must admit, the evil part of me is agreeing with the LiberalNut here, I almost want to see them freeze it just to see the total chaos unfold.

 

[LiberalNut]

You got it Epsilon. Though they don't understand, they are advocating imediate and total meltdown. I can advocate that they try it only because I know that none of the people sent to washington are as insane as the idiots who take their brainwashing rhetoric as gospel. The debt ceiling will be raised. It HAS TO BE.

 

[McDowell's]

What a ridiculous premise. There is absolutely no way to overcome a $1+ trillion deficit in one budget cycle. Part of Obama's hope and change was fiscal responsibility. How many times did we hear pay/go? The problem was the deficit skyrocketed. Whether that is his fault or not did not matter with the electorate. If Republicans make a good faith effort to reduce the deficit, the contrast will be noticeable. Rational people know the deficit will not disappear overnight, and will be satisfied that progress is being made. As long as there is a significant reduction in the deficit, increasing the debt ceiling is acceptable to me. There really is no other choice.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

What do you propose to do about the $1T+ of debt Obama has already booked for this fiscal year?

Print another $1T at the Fed?

Idiot alert!

 

[Flopper]

If the debt limit is not increased, most of the federal government would shutdown and we would have the much dreaded double dip in the economy. Although it may not seem the case sometimes, most Congressman have not gone off the deep end. But not to worry, Congress will extend the debt limit. If they didn't the administration would see to it that they would be the first ones not to get a paycheck.

You assume that there is no room to compromise toward a solution. Anything Congress makes it can unmake, budgets included.

What is wrong with forcing congress and the president to remake the budget?

Time.
Getting an agreement on cutting 1.2 trillion dollars out of the budget would take forever. Even if Congress did agree, it would take the government 6 months to implement the agreement. By then financial markets would have collapsed.

 

[loosecannon]

You got it Epsilon. Though they don't understand, they are advocating imediate and total meltdown. I can advocate that they try it only because I know that none of the people sent to washington are as insane as the idiots who take their brainwashing rhetoric as gospel. The debt ceiling will be raised. It HAS TO BE.

You are an idiot and can't think outside of your partisan box.

The deficit can be cut by 30% without hurting anything except the two wars and the repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

If you had half a brain you would have already recognized that the Bush tax cuts are the primary target.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I love it. I hope, dearly, that Rand Paul or some other whacked-out Tea Partier fillibusters a raising of the debt ceiling. OOOoooo, I hope they do it. Let the public actually see what happens when the lunatics are in charge.

Bingo!!!!​

"Paul and other Tea Party politicians’ error-filled, inherently inconsistent fascination with Jefferson provides the perfect metaphor for political hurdles to come.

“Thomas Jefferson wrote, ‘That government is best that governs least,’” Paul told supporters this week, after trouncing Democrat Jack Conway in the Kentucky Senate race.

The crowd went wild for Paul’s remark, and no one including the Senator-elect, realized that Paul’s Jefferson “quote” actually comes from Henry David Thoreau.

As Michael Scherer points out, Paul isn’t the first Tea Party politico to misquote Jefferson: failed Senate candidate Christine O’Donnell did the same thing following her primary win, when she mistakenly attributed the phrase “When the government fears the people, there is liberty” to Jefferson, despite the fact that official historians believe its more of a proverb than a presidential proclamation.

Though amusing, these gaffes point to larger problems among the Tea Party sect.

The fact that Paul and his peers not only misquote, but clearly oppose the icon they invoke illustrates how little they understand the political game they’re playing, a fact that could send the entire world spinning into disaster. (Fuckin' rookies!)

One of Congress’s first assignments will be voting on our nation’s debt ceiling. If that ceiling isn’t raised, the United States goes into default, thus sparking an international global downturn that could doom us all. Tea Party candidates, however, have again and again said that they will take a hard line on foreign debt, yet often don’t fully comprehend the mechanisms at play behind the economic scenes.

The lack of depth seen in the Jefferson contradictions—he’s both a hero and reviled—foreshadows the ideological and practical incongruities Tea Party Congressmen and women will have to unravel to rule effectively. Let’s hope they’re aware of the job ahead, for, as Jefferson truly did say, “He who knows best knows how little he knows.”

 

[Flopper]

What do you propose to do about the $1T+ of debt Obama has already booked for this fiscal year?

Print another $1T at the Fed?

Idiot alert!

Issue a combination of intra government loans and treasury bills, same thing they do every years.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Hell no. Our politicians havent even shown themselves reliable with the debt they have. It's like giving someone who has overcharged their credit cards a higher limit.

....And, who knows that, better than Republicans??!!!

 

[loosecannon]

What do you propose to do about the $1T+ of debt Obama has already booked for this fiscal year?

Print another $1T at the Fed?

Idiot alert!

Issue a combination of intra government loans and treasury bills, same thing they do every years.

That IS the deficit!

 

[Revere]

If the Fed printing money it has is not debt, then what is it?

 

[loosecannon]

If the Fed printing money it has is not debt, then what is it?

It is their debt not ours, the Fed is fully privately owned.

 

[Revere]

If the Fed printing money it has is not debt, then what is it?

It is their debt not ours, the Fed is fully privately owned.

But the currency is backed by the full faith and credit of the US Treasury.

If it's not debt, or an obligation, then what it it?

 

[Londoner]

It's too late. The money has already been spent. If America defaults on her debt -- which would result from not raising the debt ceiling -- the consequence will be economic chaos, which will lead to an even deeper hole. Best thing we can do is start cutting spending right now. No more tax breaks and subsidies to the Stateless transnationals who own government.

After the fiscally sane Carter, Reagan had to go to the congress twice, hat in hand, to raise the debt level. He said he needed the money to escalate the Cold War and give tax breaks to corporations who were shipping jobs to freedom-hating Asian sweat shops.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

The righties have no answers.

....Which would pretty-much explain John Boner yellin' "NO!!"....for two years.​

 

[Epsilon Delta]

You got it Epsilon. Though they don't understand, they are advocating imediate and total meltdown. I can advocate that they try it only because I know that none of the people sent to washington are as insane as the idiots who take their brainwashing rhetoric as gospel. The debt ceiling will be raised. It HAS TO BE.

You are an idiot and can't think outside of your partisan box.

The deficit can be cut by 30% without hurting anything except the two wars and the repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

If you had half a brain you would have already recognized that the Bush tax cuts are the primary target.

Hold on, are you suggesting that the Tea Partiers are going to support repealing the Bush tax cuts? Or that freezing the deficit would hurt the effort to repeal the Bush tax cuts?

In any case, your last point doesn't make any sense. Neither party has any interest in repealing the Bush tax cuts, the Democrats wanted to repeal the tax cuts for the "rich" but they've already shown they'll compromise (in any case, they'll likely extend all of them in the short term, and they probably should; the Republicans/Tea Partiers will vote against any other tax raises). The only option left is to borrow.

And you know what the problem is? The problem is that of course it would be incredibly stupid to raise taxes right now in the middle of the recession; THIS is the exact moment that those tax cuts were needed. Both parties are right about that. But with this kind of insane deficit, people ARE right to be going nuts about the deficit. It's just a damn shame that Bush had to put in place these taxes which were unnecessary (especially the 2003 Tax Cuts). NOW is that "rainy day" that surpluses are good for. And then a double whammy of War... It's not about blaming Bush for the recession or anything, but I mean, in terms of the deficit it's just a shame.

But there's nothing to do about that now. If the budget is frozen, or even if tax rates increase, we're gonna dip right in and this time it's going to get much uglier.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that most important part - that cutting spending will likely also lead us into a double or dip, or most likely, maintain the current state of affairs for a long time (i.e. ~10% unemployment). I guess it depends where, I'm sure there's places that can be cut but.... yeah

 

[Flopper]

If the Fed printing money it has is not debt, then what is it?

Printing money is not necessarily the best way for the government to pay their bills because it increase the money supply which might not be desirable. Borrow the money has much less effect on the money supply.

 

[Revere]

If the Fed printing money it has is not debt, then what is it?

Printing money is not necessarily the best way for the government to pay their bills because it increase the money supply which might not be desirable. Borrow the money has much less effect on the money supply.

But another trillion in debt on top of the 13 trillion you already have doesn't weaken the currency the same way increasing the money supply does?

 

[Flopper]

If the Fed printing money it has is not debt, then what is it?

Printing money is not necessarily the best way for the government to pay their bills because it increase the money supply which might not be desirable. Borrow the money has much less effect on the money supply.

But another trillion in debt on top of the 13 trillion you already have doesn't weaken the currency the same way increasing the money supply does?

Not directly. The value of the dollar is determined by free market trading where the advantages of holding the US dollar are weighted against the advantages of holding other currencies. Yes, increasing the debt makes the currency less desirable, however there are many other factors. Whenever there is a worldwide financial crisis, war, or disasters, money pours into the US because it's considered to be one of the safest place to put your money in a crises. That's why the world is gobbling up our debt. When good times return then, the rest of the world might not be as interested in loaning us money and that could be a big problem because it would mean higher interest rates and thus a higher deficit. Hopefully the country will have recovered by then and got some control of the deficit.

 

[loosecannon]

You got it Epsilon. Though they don't understand, they are advocating imediate and total meltdown. I can advocate that they try it only because I know that none of the people sent to washington are as insane as the idiots who take their brainwashing rhetoric as gospel. The debt ceiling will be raised. It HAS TO BE.

You are an idiot and can't think outside of your partisan box.

The deficit can be cut by 30% without hurting anything except the two wars and the repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

If you had half a brain you would have already recognized that the Bush tax cuts are the primary target.

Hold on, are you suggesting that the Tea Partiers are going to support repealing the Bush tax cuts? Or that freezing the deficit would hurt the effort to repeal the Bush tax cuts?

In any case, your last point doesn't make any sense. Neither party has any interest in repealing the Bush tax cuts, the Democrats wanted to repeal the tax cuts for the "rich" but they've already shown they'll compromise (in any case, they'll likely extend all of them in the short term, and they probably should; the Republicans/Tea Partiers will vote against any other tax raises). The only option left is to borrow.

And you know what the problem is? The problem is that of course it would be incredibly stupid to raise taxes right now in the middle of the recession; THIS is the exact moment that those tax cuts were needed. Both parties are right about that. But with this kind of insane deficit, people ARE right to be going nuts about the deficit. It's just a damn shame that Bush had to put in place these taxes which were unnecessary (especially the 2003 Tax Cuts). NOW is that "rainy day" that surpluses are good for. And then a double whammy of War... It's not about blaming Bush for the recession or anything, but I mean, in terms of the deficit it's just a shame.

But there's nothing to do about that now. If the budget is frozen, or even if tax rates increase, we're gonna dip right in and this time it's going to get much uglier.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that most important part - that cutting spending will likely also lead us into a double or dip, or most likely, maintain the current state of affairs for a long time (i.e. ~10% unemployment). I guess it depends where, I'm sure there's places that can be cut but.... yeah

No serious discussion of eliminating the deficit can include extension of the tax cuts.

Make up your mind: are you for the deficit and the tax cuts or not.