CDZ Are Some Cultures Better Than Others?

[Asclepias]

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

Except they admitted as much and passed a congressional resolution documenting that fact. Sorry.

It took 10 seconds or a little more....

Viral meme says Constitution 'owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois'

The case against Iroquois influence

Despite this, many scholars have concluded that the evidence is short of convincing.

• The Iroquois government is in some ways radically different than the U.S. government.

For starters, the Iroquois’ federal system arguably bears more resemblance to the United Nations than the American federal system, focusing primarily on diplomacy.



The Iroquois council "was particularly concerned with matters of alliance, with the continuing firm alliance of the five member nations and alliances with other nations. It did not concern itself with the internal relations of the constituent nations," Tooker noted in a 1988 paper.

More important, the Iroquois system is based on hereditary positions and clan-based leadership -- elements that are entirely foreign to the United States’ system (and arguably seem more similar to the British system the colonists were trying to escape). The Iroquois League’s governmental power was vested in a council of 50 chiefs known as sachems. Each sachem had a title that was essentially hereditary, and each of these titles belonged to a particular clan within a particular tribe. (The meme does have a point about the role of women: The successor to a League chief was chosen by the "clan mother," the senior woman of the clan.)

The division of council seats was fixed, but without any relation to the member nation’s population size. Meanwhile, as the council’s "firekeepers," the Onondagas had the the responsibility of presenting the matter to be discussed, Tooker wrote. And the council acted based on consensus, rather than by majority rule, as became the system under the Constitution of 1787.

"There is little in this system of governance the Founding Fathers might have been expected to copy," Tooker wrote. "It is doubtful, for example, that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention meeting during the legendary long, hot Philadelphia summer of 1787 would have proposed a system under which only their relatives could become members of Congress, and a system under which each legislator was chosen by a close female relative of the previous holder of the office. Nor does it seem likely -- even if John Adams had heeded his wife's admonition to ‘remember the ladies’ -- that if such a hereditary system had been adopted, the Constitutional Convention would have opted for matrilineal inheritance of office, which by its very nature excludes a son from succeeding to his father's position."

• Even if there was some Iroquois influence, it wasn’t the primary shaper of the Constitution. This is where the Facebook meme really overplays its hand. You don’t have to be a total denier of Iroquois influence to acknowledge that the meme goes too far when it says "the U.S. Constitution owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois Tribes."

The traditionally cited sources of inspiration for the drafters, including ancient Greek and prior European thought, played a significant role -- almost certainly a decisive one.

"Even if the Iroquois Confederation was similar to the Constitution, which it was not, and even if some Americans admired aspects of Indian culture, that does not mean the Framers emulated Native American systems," said Stewart Jay, a University of Washington law professor and author of Mortal Words: A History of the U.S. Constitution: Volume 1, Origins to World War II.

Jay added that more broadly, the democratic nature of the U.S. Constitution was greatly refined and extended by the civil rights amendments adopted after the Civil War, which were hardly conceived with Iroquois principles in mind.

Gautham Rao, an American University historian and author of the forthcoming At The Water’s Edge: Commerce, Governance and the Origins of the American State, concurred. "It is a fairly important idea that a great many societies and networks influenced American constitutional thought, the Iroquois among them," Rao said. "But it is not true that the concept of ‘democracy’ embodied in the U.S. Constitution was directly suggested by the Iroquois."

I guess you should have taken more than 20 or 30 seconds.

The bad thing about the internet is that if you look for misinformation and ignorance, someone will be there to make you believe it. How did you let such an easily checked claim lead you to the misinformation? Thanks for being an excellent example of how searching for what you want to find instead of the facts can trip you up.

Great Law of Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Text of H.Con.Res. 331 (100th): A concurrent resolution to acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations ... (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

"
Whereas the original framers of the Constitution, including, most
notably, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, are known
to have greatly admired the concepts of the Six Nations of the
Iroquois Confederacy;
Whereas the confederation of the original Thirteen Colonies into
one republic was influenced by the political system developed by
the Iroquois Confederacy as were many of the democratic prin-
ciples which were incorporated into the Constitution itself; and.
Whereas, since the formation of the United States, the Congress has
recognized the sovereign status of Indian tribes and has, through....."

Really....you are going to cite a resolution passed by a bunch of politicians as a favor to the only indian American in congress in 1988........... as proof that the Founders used the stone age primitives as their guiding light....vs......the long history of governments and philosophical study of the west that they did.....


Yeah....not impressed........

Try actually reading the Federalist Papers.......

If the founding fathers hadnt wrote about it I wouldnt have given it a second thought. The fact that they did and congress passed the resolution makes your refusal to accept their words as mere spitefulness. You still didnt answer my question. How did you get tricked into looking up some blurb about a meme when the proof regarding the congressional resolution you claimed didnt exist was so easy to look up?

 

[OldLady]

That doesn't mean that it is better, which you still haven't defined.

Lots of people support Trump and that doesn't mean he is better.

I think we can easily measure the accomplishments of Western Civilization and compare them with the history of other cultures.

When will you define better?

"Better" meaning in comparison with other cultures. Islamic Arab culture, for example, is clearly inferior to Western Civilization. How many books are published in predominantly Islamic nations? Any idea about that?

Why is it necessary to you to be better? The West has focused on the individual as the most important focus. Others find society as a whole to be more important. The twain shall never meet.

In this post lies the truth.and the answer to the OP. Though I disagree the two shall never meet because they have existed before and still do in some parts of the world left untouched by western culture, the best societies are able to balance the needs of the individual and society.

I'm interested. Where?

 

[Asclepias]

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

But western civilisation burnt witches and kept slaves. Women couldnt vote , in fact in most countries voting was restricted due to property rights. Where does the superiority come from ?

Hundreds of years ago....every culture burnt witches, every culture had slavery.......and in every culture women were chatel.....except for the rare few......but Western Civilization developed the philosophies and the attitudes and the means to make men and women free and equal...

There is still slavery in Africa....

We ended all of those practices...do you realize that?

There is still slavery in the US. Matter of fact slavery is still legal in the US. I'm assuming you didnt realize that?

Really....and where would that be.......other than in democrat cities......

Use your thinking cap. Remember what happened the last time you didnt believe me.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

I was going to thank you for agreeing then I noticed you made up something no one else was talking about. We are talking about western culture not governments.

Governments do not mirror the cultures of its people?
OK then, people of Western Cultures openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
You are just too smart for me.

 

[Asclepias]

I think we can easily measure the accomplishments of Western Civilization and compare them with the history of other cultures.

When will you define better?

"Better" meaning in comparison with other cultures. Islamic Arab culture, for example, is clearly inferior to Western Civilization. How many books are published in predominantly Islamic nations? Any idea about that?

Why is it necessary to you to be better? The West has focused on the individual as the most important focus. Others find society as a whole to be more important. The twain shall never meet.

In this post lies the truth.and the answer to the OP. Though I disagree the two shall never meet because they have existed before and still do in some parts of the world left untouched by western culture, the best societies are able to balance the needs of the individual and society.

I'm interested. Where?

Pretty much every indigenous society on every continent. Lets start with the Americas. The NA's culture was great example of that. Each member excelled to the best of their ability with the belief that their individual greatness benefited the society.

 

[Asclepias]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

I was going to thank you for agreeing then I noticed you made up something no one else was talking about. We are talking about western culture not governments.

Governments do not mirror the cultures of its people?
OK then, people of Western Cultures openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
You are just too smart for me.

Its possible that they can but that wasnt the point. The point is that we were talking about cultures not governments.

 

[Liminal]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Because living in Sierra Leone is exactly the same as living in Denmark.

 

[2aguy]

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

Except they admitted as much and passed a congressional resolution documenting that fact. Sorry.

It took 10 seconds or a little more....

Viral meme says Constitution 'owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois'

The case against Iroquois influence

Despite this, many scholars have concluded that the evidence is short of convincing.

• The Iroquois government is in some ways radically different than the U.S. government.

For starters, the Iroquois’ federal system arguably bears more resemblance to the United Nations than the American federal system, focusing primarily on diplomacy.



The Iroquois council "was particularly concerned with matters of alliance, with the continuing firm alliance of the five member nations and alliances with other nations. It did not concern itself with the internal relations of the constituent nations," Tooker noted in a 1988 paper.

More important, the Iroquois system is based on hereditary positions and clan-based leadership -- elements that are entirely foreign to the United States’ system (and arguably seem more similar to the British system the colonists were trying to escape). The Iroquois League’s governmental power was vested in a council of 50 chiefs known as sachems. Each sachem had a title that was essentially hereditary, and each of these titles belonged to a particular clan within a particular tribe. (The meme does have a point about the role of women: The successor to a League chief was chosen by the "clan mother," the senior woman of the clan.)

The division of council seats was fixed, but without any relation to the member nation’s population size. Meanwhile, as the council’s "firekeepers," the Onondagas had the the responsibility of presenting the matter to be discussed, Tooker wrote. And the council acted based on consensus, rather than by majority rule, as became the system under the Constitution of 1787.

"There is little in this system of governance the Founding Fathers might have been expected to copy," Tooker wrote. "It is doubtful, for example, that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention meeting during the legendary long, hot Philadelphia summer of 1787 would have proposed a system under which only their relatives could become members of Congress, and a system under which each legislator was chosen by a close female relative of the previous holder of the office. Nor does it seem likely -- even if John Adams had heeded his wife's admonition to ‘remember the ladies’ -- that if such a hereditary system had been adopted, the Constitutional Convention would have opted for matrilineal inheritance of office, which by its very nature excludes a son from succeeding to his father's position."

• Even if there was some Iroquois influence, it wasn’t the primary shaper of the Constitution. This is where the Facebook meme really overplays its hand. You don’t have to be a total denier of Iroquois influence to acknowledge that the meme goes too far when it says "the U.S. Constitution owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois Tribes."

The traditionally cited sources of inspiration for the drafters, including ancient Greek and prior European thought, played a significant role -- almost certainly a decisive one.

"Even if the Iroquois Confederation was similar to the Constitution, which it was not, and even if some Americans admired aspects of Indian culture, that does not mean the Framers emulated Native American systems," said Stewart Jay, a University of Washington law professor and author of Mortal Words: A History of the U.S. Constitution: Volume 1, Origins to World War II.

Jay added that more broadly, the democratic nature of the U.S. Constitution was greatly refined and extended by the civil rights amendments adopted after the Civil War, which were hardly conceived with Iroquois principles in mind.

Gautham Rao, an American University historian and author of the forthcoming At The Water’s Edge: Commerce, Governance and the Origins of the American State, concurred. "It is a fairly important idea that a great many societies and networks influenced American constitutional thought, the Iroquois among them," Rao said. "But it is not true that the concept of ‘democracy’ embodied in the U.S. Constitution was directly suggested by the Iroquois."

I guess you should have taken more than 20 or 30 seconds.

The bad thing about the internet is that if you look for misinformation and ignorance, someone will be there to make you believe it. How did you let such an easily checked claim lead you to the misinformation? Thanks for being an excellent example of how searching for what you want to find instead of the facts can trip you up.

Great Law of Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Text of H.Con.Res. 331 (100th): A concurrent resolution to acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations ... (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

"
Whereas the original framers of the Constitution, including, most
notably, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, are known
to have greatly admired the concepts of the Six Nations of the
Iroquois Confederacy;
Whereas the confederation of the original Thirteen Colonies into
one republic was influenced by the political system developed by
the Iroquois Confederacy as were many of the democratic prin-
ciples which were incorporated into the Constitution itself; and.
Whereas, since the formation of the United States, the Congress has
recognized the sovereign status of Indian tribes and has, through....."

Really....you are going to cite a resolution passed by a bunch of politicians as a favor to the only indian American in congress in 1988........... as proof that the Founders used the stone age primitives as their guiding light....vs......the long history of governments and philosophical study of the west that they did.....


Yeah....not impressed........

Try actually reading the Federalist Papers.......

If the founding fathers hadnt wrote about it I wouldnt have given it a second thought. The fact that they did and congress passed the resolution makes your refusal to accept their words as mere spitefulness. You still didnt answer my question. How did you get tricked into looking up some blurb about a meme when the proof regarding the congressional resolution you claimed didnt exist was so easy to look up?

The resolution was passed in 1988 ...not 1776.......and they did it in an act of Politically Correct theater on the urging of the only Indian in congress......they wanted his support on something and he wanted this done...so it was done....

 

[2aguy]

When will you define better?

"Better" meaning in comparison with other cultures. Islamic Arab culture, for example, is clearly inferior to Western Civilization. How many books are published in predominantly Islamic nations? Any idea about that?

Why is it necessary to you to be better? The West has focused on the individual as the most important focus. Others find society as a whole to be more important. The twain shall never meet.

In this post lies the truth.and the answer to the OP. Though I disagree the two shall never meet because they have existed before and still do in some parts of the world left untouched by western culture, the best societies are able to balance the needs of the individual and society.

I'm interested. Where?

Pretty much every indigenous society on every continent. Lets start with the Americas. The NA's culture was great example of that. Each member excelled to the best of their ability with the belief that their individual greatness benefited the society.

You mean besides the canabilism, human sacrifice, the torture of prisoners the kidnapping and enslaving of women......please.......they were stone age primitive people as prone to stupidty as any other culture...........

 

[Liminal]

"Better" meaning in comparison with other cultures. Islamic Arab culture, for example, is clearly inferior to Western Civilization. How many books are published in predominantly Islamic nations? Any idea about that?

Why do you think the number of books published defines what is better?

Simply an indicator of which culture is more open to new ideas and differing opinions.

again, if you're discounting those other cultures and ideas then you are not indicative of being open to new ideas and differing opinions... which is where we started this exercise....

and you are still missing the irony

The real irony is that some people evidently believe they have objective opinions.

actually, the point is that your judgment is subjective so your judgment that one culture (your own in your opinion...meaning white christian culture) is superior than others.

XXXXXXX

It's your blatantly racist mentality that leads you to such superficial conclusions.

 

[Asclepias]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Because living in Sierra Leone is exactly the same as living in Denmark.

Your post fails as a logical fallacy. Trying to compare a place in turmoil with a peaceful place is a sure sign you have lost confidence in your ability to debate.

 

[Liminal]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Because living in Sierra Leone is exactly the same as living in Denmark.

Your post fails as a logical fallacy. Trying to compare a place in turmoil with a peaceful place is a sure sign you have lost confidence in your ability to debate.

Perhaps you should review the childish simplicity of the statement I was responding to. That might help you understand.

 

[Asclepias]

Except they admitted as much and passed a congressional resolution documenting that fact. Sorry.

It took 10 seconds or a little more....

Viral meme says Constitution 'owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois'

The case against Iroquois influence

Despite this, many scholars have concluded that the evidence is short of convincing.

• The Iroquois government is in some ways radically different than the U.S. government.

For starters, the Iroquois’ federal system arguably bears more resemblance to the United Nations than the American federal system, focusing primarily on diplomacy.



The Iroquois council "was particularly concerned with matters of alliance, with the continuing firm alliance of the five member nations and alliances with other nations. It did not concern itself with the internal relations of the constituent nations," Tooker noted in a 1988 paper.

More important, the Iroquois system is based on hereditary positions and clan-based leadership -- elements that are entirely foreign to the United States’ system (and arguably seem more similar to the British system the colonists were trying to escape). The Iroquois League’s governmental power was vested in a council of 50 chiefs known as sachems. Each sachem had a title that was essentially hereditary, and each of these titles belonged to a particular clan within a particular tribe. (The meme does have a point about the role of women: The successor to a League chief was chosen by the "clan mother," the senior woman of the clan.)

The division of council seats was fixed, but without any relation to the member nation’s population size. Meanwhile, as the council’s "firekeepers," the Onondagas had the the responsibility of presenting the matter to be discussed, Tooker wrote. And the council acted based on consensus, rather than by majority rule, as became the system under the Constitution of 1787.

"There is little in this system of governance the Founding Fathers might have been expected to copy," Tooker wrote. "It is doubtful, for example, that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention meeting during the legendary long, hot Philadelphia summer of 1787 would have proposed a system under which only their relatives could become members of Congress, and a system under which each legislator was chosen by a close female relative of the previous holder of the office. Nor does it seem likely -- even if John Adams had heeded his wife's admonition to ‘remember the ladies’ -- that if such a hereditary system had been adopted, the Constitutional Convention would have opted for matrilineal inheritance of office, which by its very nature excludes a son from succeeding to his father's position."

• Even if there was some Iroquois influence, it wasn’t the primary shaper of the Constitution. This is where the Facebook meme really overplays its hand. You don’t have to be a total denier of Iroquois influence to acknowledge that the meme goes too far when it says "the U.S. Constitution owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois Tribes."

The traditionally cited sources of inspiration for the drafters, including ancient Greek and prior European thought, played a significant role -- almost certainly a decisive one.

"Even if the Iroquois Confederation was similar to the Constitution, which it was not, and even if some Americans admired aspects of Indian culture, that does not mean the Framers emulated Native American systems," said Stewart Jay, a University of Washington law professor and author of Mortal Words: A History of the U.S. Constitution: Volume 1, Origins to World War II.

Jay added that more broadly, the democratic nature of the U.S. Constitution was greatly refined and extended by the civil rights amendments adopted after the Civil War, which were hardly conceived with Iroquois principles in mind.

Gautham Rao, an American University historian and author of the forthcoming At The Water’s Edge: Commerce, Governance and the Origins of the American State, concurred. "It is a fairly important idea that a great many societies and networks influenced American constitutional thought, the Iroquois among them," Rao said. "But it is not true that the concept of ‘democracy’ embodied in the U.S. Constitution was directly suggested by the Iroquois."

I guess you should have taken more than 20 or 30 seconds.

The bad thing about the internet is that if you look for misinformation and ignorance, someone will be there to make you believe it. How did you let such an easily checked claim lead you to the misinformation? Thanks for being an excellent example of how searching for what you want to find instead of the facts can trip you up.

Great Law of Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Text of H.Con.Res. 331 (100th): A concurrent resolution to acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations ... (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

"
Whereas the original framers of the Constitution, including, most
notably, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, are known
to have greatly admired the concepts of the Six Nations of the
Iroquois Confederacy;
Whereas the confederation of the original Thirteen Colonies into
one republic was influenced by the political system developed by
the Iroquois Confederacy as were many of the democratic prin-
ciples which were incorporated into the Constitution itself; and.
Whereas, since the formation of the United States, the Congress has
recognized the sovereign status of Indian tribes and has, through....."

Really....you are going to cite a resolution passed by a bunch of politicians as a favor to the only indian American in congress in 1988........... as proof that the Founders used the stone age primitives as their guiding light....vs......the long history of governments and philosophical study of the west that they did.....


Yeah....not impressed........

Try actually reading the Federalist Papers.......

If the founding fathers hadnt wrote about it I wouldnt have given it a second thought. The fact that they did and congress passed the resolution makes your refusal to accept their words as mere spitefulness. You still didnt answer my question. How did you get tricked into looking up some blurb about a meme when the proof regarding the congressional resolution you claimed didnt exist was so easy to look up?

The resolution was passed in 1988 ...not 1776.......and they did it in an act of Politically Correct theater on the urging of the only Indian in congress......they wanted his support on something and he wanted this done...so it was done....

The resolution was based on what the founding fathers wrote. Like I said before had they not written the admissions themselves you would have a point. However, since they did admit this way back in the 1700's your post fails as a valid rebuttal to the facts.

 

[Asclepias]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Because living in Sierra Leone is exactly the same as living in Denmark.

Your post fails as a logical fallacy. Trying to compare a place in turmoil with a peaceful place is a sure sign you have lost confidence in your ability to debate.

Perhaps you should review the childish simplicity of the statement I was responding to. That might help you understand.

I already understand. You couldnt come up with something to make your point so you pretended murder, genocide, animal sexual molestation, rape, wife beating, terrorism, war, etc etc is not part of western culture.

 

[Liminal]

It took 10 seconds or a little more....

Viral meme says Constitution 'owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois'

The case against Iroquois influence

Despite this, many scholars have concluded that the evidence is short of convincing.

• The Iroquois government is in some ways radically different than the U.S. government.

For starters, the Iroquois’ federal system arguably bears more resemblance to the United Nations than the American federal system, focusing primarily on diplomacy.



The Iroquois council "was particularly concerned with matters of alliance, with the continuing firm alliance of the five member nations and alliances with other nations. It did not concern itself with the internal relations of the constituent nations," Tooker noted in a 1988 paper.

More important, the Iroquois system is based on hereditary positions and clan-based leadership -- elements that are entirely foreign to the United States’ system (and arguably seem more similar to the British system the colonists were trying to escape). The Iroquois League’s governmental power was vested in a council of 50 chiefs known as sachems. Each sachem had a title that was essentially hereditary, and each of these titles belonged to a particular clan within a particular tribe. (The meme does have a point about the role of women: The successor to a League chief was chosen by the "clan mother," the senior woman of the clan.)

The division of council seats was fixed, but without any relation to the member nation’s population size. Meanwhile, as the council’s "firekeepers," the Onondagas had the the responsibility of presenting the matter to be discussed, Tooker wrote. And the council acted based on consensus, rather than by majority rule, as became the system under the Constitution of 1787.

"There is little in this system of governance the Founding Fathers might have been expected to copy," Tooker wrote. "It is doubtful, for example, that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention meeting during the legendary long, hot Philadelphia summer of 1787 would have proposed a system under which only their relatives could become members of Congress, and a system under which each legislator was chosen by a close female relative of the previous holder of the office. Nor does it seem likely -- even if John Adams had heeded his wife's admonition to ‘remember the ladies’ -- that if such a hereditary system had been adopted, the Constitutional Convention would have opted for matrilineal inheritance of office, which by its very nature excludes a son from succeeding to his father's position."

• Even if there was some Iroquois influence, it wasn’t the primary shaper of the Constitution. This is where the Facebook meme really overplays its hand. You don’t have to be a total denier of Iroquois influence to acknowledge that the meme goes too far when it says "the U.S. Constitution owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois Tribes."

The traditionally cited sources of inspiration for the drafters, including ancient Greek and prior European thought, played a significant role -- almost certainly a decisive one.

"Even if the Iroquois Confederation was similar to the Constitution, which it was not, and even if some Americans admired aspects of Indian culture, that does not mean the Framers emulated Native American systems," said Stewart Jay, a University of Washington law professor and author of Mortal Words: A History of the U.S. Constitution: Volume 1, Origins to World War II.

Jay added that more broadly, the democratic nature of the U.S. Constitution was greatly refined and extended by the civil rights amendments adopted after the Civil War, which were hardly conceived with Iroquois principles in mind.

Gautham Rao, an American University historian and author of the forthcoming At The Water’s Edge: Commerce, Governance and the Origins of the American State, concurred. "It is a fairly important idea that a great many societies and networks influenced American constitutional thought, the Iroquois among them," Rao said. "But it is not true that the concept of ‘democracy’ embodied in the U.S. Constitution was directly suggested by the Iroquois."

I guess you should have taken more than 20 or 30 seconds.

The bad thing about the internet is that if you look for misinformation and ignorance, someone will be there to make you believe it. How did you let such an easily checked claim lead you to the misinformation? Thanks for being an excellent example of how searching for what you want to find instead of the facts can trip you up.

Great Law of Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Text of H.Con.Res. 331 (100th): A concurrent resolution to acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations ... (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

"
Whereas the original framers of the Constitution, including, most
notably, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, are known
to have greatly admired the concepts of the Six Nations of the
Iroquois Confederacy;
Whereas the confederation of the original Thirteen Colonies into
one republic was influenced by the political system developed by
the Iroquois Confederacy as were many of the democratic prin-
ciples which were incorporated into the Constitution itself; and.
Whereas, since the formation of the United States, the Congress has
recognized the sovereign status of Indian tribes and has, through....."

Really....you are going to cite a resolution passed by a bunch of politicians as a favor to the only indian American in congress in 1988........... as proof that the Founders used the stone age primitives as their guiding light....vs......the long history of governments and philosophical study of the west that they did.....


Yeah....not impressed........

Try actually reading the Federalist Papers.......

If the founding fathers hadnt wrote about it I wouldnt have given it a second thought. The fact that they did and congress passed the resolution makes your refusal to accept their words as mere spitefulness. You still didnt answer my question. How did you get tricked into looking up some blurb about a meme when the proof regarding the congressional resolution you claimed didnt exist was so easy to look up?

The resolution was passed in 1988 ...not 1776.......and they did it in an act of Politically Correct theater on the urging of the only Indian in congress......they wanted his support on something and he wanted this done...so it was done....

The resolution was based on what the founding fathers wrote. Like I said before had they not written the admissions themselves you would have a point. However, since they did admit this way back in the 1700's your post fails as a valid rebuttal to the facts.

If the founding fathers had really been thinking they would have sent all the slaves to Africa, avoiding that nasty Civil War and subsequent unending racial strife. That would address all your socio/cultural concerns.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

I was going to thank you for agreeing then I noticed you made up something no one else was talking about. We are talking about western culture not governments.

Governments do not mirror the cultures of its people?
OK then, people of Western Cultures openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
You are just too smart for me.

Its possible that they can but that wasnt the point. The point is that we were talking about cultures not governments.

I can only bow to your vast knowledge and agree with you. Western Cultures do openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible. You see it everyday in every city of every Western culture.

 

[Asclepias]

I guess you should have taken more than 20 or 30 seconds.

The bad thing about the internet is that if you look for misinformation and ignorance, someone will be there to make you believe it. How did you let such an easily checked claim lead you to the misinformation? Thanks for being an excellent example of how searching for what you want to find instead of the facts can trip you up.

Great Law of Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Text of H.Con.Res. 331 (100th): A concurrent resolution to acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations ... (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

"
Whereas the original framers of the Constitution, including, most
notably, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, are known
to have greatly admired the concepts of the Six Nations of the
Iroquois Confederacy;
Whereas the confederation of the original Thirteen Colonies into
one republic was influenced by the political system developed by
the Iroquois Confederacy as were many of the democratic prin-
ciples which were incorporated into the Constitution itself; and.
Whereas, since the formation of the United States, the Congress has
recognized the sovereign status of Indian tribes and has, through....."

Really....you are going to cite a resolution passed by a bunch of politicians as a favor to the only indian American in congress in 1988........... as proof that the Founders used the stone age primitives as their guiding light....vs......the long history of governments and philosophical study of the west that they did.....


Yeah....not impressed........

Try actually reading the Federalist Papers.......

If the founding fathers hadnt wrote about it I wouldnt have given it a second thought. The fact that they did and congress passed the resolution makes your refusal to accept their words as mere spitefulness. You still didnt answer my question. How did you get tricked into looking up some blurb about a meme when the proof regarding the congressional resolution you claimed didnt exist was so easy to look up?

The resolution was passed in 1988 ...not 1776.......and they did it in an act of Politically Correct theater on the urging of the only Indian in congress......they wanted his support on something and he wanted this done...so it was done....

The resolution was based on what the founding fathers wrote. Like I said before had they not written the admissions themselves you would have a point. However, since they did admit this way back in the 1700's your post fails as a valid rebuttal to the facts.

If the founding fathers had really been thinking they would have sent all the slaves to Africa, avoiding that nasty Civil War and subsequent unending racial strife. That would address all your socio/cultural concerns.

That would have been best for Blacks but for the US it would have been bad news. The US would just be a penal outpost to this day. Without Blacks there would have been no way the US would have developed into an economic power. However, it seems your emotions have led you to deflect on your own thread again. Can you stay on point even though you are having a hard time convincing me.?

 

[Weatherman2020]

You couldnt come up with something to make your point so you pretended murder, genocide, animal sexual molestation, rape, wife beating, terrorism, war, etc etc is not part of western culture.

Yes, I am so thankful we can do these things openly and not fear retribution.

 

[Asclepias]

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

I was going to thank you for agreeing then I noticed you made up something no one else was talking about. We are talking about western culture not governments.

Governments do not mirror the cultures of its people?
OK then, people of Western Cultures openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
You are just too smart for me.

Its possible that they can but that wasnt the point. The point is that we were talking about cultures not governments.

I can only bow to your vast knowledge and agree with you. Western Cultures do openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible. You see it everyday in every city of every Western culture.

Sounds exactly like the video games the kids play nowdays. I am glad you agree.

 

[jillian]

Why do you think the number of books published defines what is better?

Simply an indicator of which culture is more open to new ideas and differing opinions.

again, if you're discounting those other cultures and ideas then you are not indicative of being open to new ideas and differing opinions... which is where we started this exercise....

and you are still missing the irony

The real irony is that some people evidently believe they have objective opinions.

actually, the point is that your judgment is subjective so your judgment that one culture (your own in your opinion...meaning white christian culture) is superior than others.

which is laughable bigotry

I'll bet you're a Clinton supporter. They've been real busy lately trying to imply that Bernie Sanders is somehow tacitly racist. Sounds familiar to you.....doesn't it.

I don't think I've ever said Bernie is a racist. You are.

Try again.