CDZ Are Some Cultures Better Than Others?

[Asclepias]

Indoctrination? Oh I see, ordinary folks can't possibly view the world from your enlightened perspective.....you see through all that propaganda.

who says you're ordinary? or the norm?

This entire thread appears to be the logical fallacy of false presumption.

Seriously? You see no social development in the entire history of humanity? That's bizarre to me. The social evolution of the human race has been measured by the empowerment of the individual. The movement of power from the top. We have evolved from thinking leaders were gods to believing they ruled by divine right, to the Magna Carta, where the king was forced to share power, to the modern developments of the free press, which has lead to Gandhi and King and Biko and Walesa, putting true power into the hands of ordinary people.

Of course there is social development though I disagree with your conflicting examples. Where did I say different? The false presumption of the thread comes in when one use the logical fallacy that some cultures are better than others. The whole thing rests on amusing belief that one culture can decide what is superior and what is not.

A very confusing reply. Cultures develop but that development is irrelevant? All cultures do is decide what is superior and what is not. That's how they develop. Do you think North Korea has a bright and vibrant culture? They don't. How about Russia? What was the Arab Spring except yet another example of cultures yearning for what we have in the West?

The Enlightenment started in Europe, but they didn't adopt the principles developed by those philosophers until we showed them the way. Then they did. Why? Because the idea of a nation built on the principle of a social contract was clearly better. An important evolutionary step forward. One which I have no problem labeling as superior.

You managed to imply I said something again that I didnt say. You dont have to do that to make your point. Yes all cultures decide what they think is superior but that doesnt mean they know what they are talking about. Some cultures think eating monkey brains is superior food culture. Some dont. Who is correct and what makes them correct? I dont live in North Korea so how would I know if they have a bright and vibrant culture? Its possible they do since S. Korea does.. Same with Russia.

The Enlightenment was based on the teachings of the Moors that literally reeducated europeans to Greek history and their own history. If there were no Moors then europe is stuck in the dark ages where they thought water contained evil spirits and considered not bathing a good thing. Also the Enlightenment was not really so enlightening. This is the time period where the ideas of racial superiority for europeans were developed along with the rationalization for slavery. Practically everyone knows that isnt enlightening. In fact it shows that europeans had a hard time with comprehension.

 

[Asclepias]

There is no western tradition of acceptance of new and different ideas. Where did you get the idea that there was such a tradition? BTW to answer your question...no. Your culture is great if it achieves the goals you want. Those goals are different for each culture.

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

Except they admitted as much and passed a congressional resolution documenting that fact. Sorry.

 

[OldLady]

Seriously? You see no social development in the entire history of humanity? That's bizarre to me. The social evolution of the human race has been measured by the empowerment of the individual. The movement of power from the top. We have evolved from thinking leaders were gods to believing they ruled by divine right, to the Magna Carta, where the king was forced to share power, to the modern developments of the free press, which has lead to Gandhi and King and Biko and Walesa, putting true power into the hands of ordinary people.

You can tell how much the rest of the world eschews western culture by the way they're all trying to emulate it.

That doesn't mean that it is better, which you still haven't defined.

Lots of people support Trump and that doesn't mean he is better.

I think we can easily measure the accomplishments of Western Civilization and compare them with the history of other cultures.

When will you define better?

"Better" meaning in comparison with other cultures. Islamic Arab culture, for example, is clearly inferior to Western Civilization. How many books are published in predominantly Islamic nations? Any idea about that?

Why is it necessary to you to be better? The West has focused on the individual as the most important focus. Others find society as a whole to be more important. The twain shall never meet.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The Enlightenment started in Europe, but they didn't adopt the principles developed by those philosophers until we showed them the way. Then they did. Why? Because the idea of a nation built on the principle of a social contract was clearly better. An important evolutionary step forward. One which I have no problem labeling as superior.

That would depend upon your situation within that society.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

There is no western tradition of acceptance of new and different ideas. Where did you get the idea that there was such a tradition? BTW to answer your question...no. Your culture is great if it achieves the goals you want. Those goals are different for each culture.

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

But western civilisation burnt witches and kept slaves. Women couldnt vote , in fact in most countries voting was restricted due to property rights. Where does the superiority come from ?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, our western, liberal values are obviously superior to the knuckle-dragging ways of those whose societies have not advanced since the 7th century.

A funny thing happens in the western, liberal societies, however, in that those who are most predisposed to calling themselves "liberal" are the very least likely to stand up for these liberal values that are under assault by barbarians. Other than a few brave individuals like Bill Maher or the late, great Chistopher Hitchens, there are very few on the left who understand this these days.

 

[2aguy]

There is no western tradition of acceptance of new and different ideas. Where did you get the idea that there was such a tradition? BTW to answer your question...no. Your culture is great if it achieves the goals you want. Those goals are different for each culture.

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

But western civilisation burnt witches and kept slaves. Women couldnt vote , in fact in most countries voting was restricted due to property rights. Where does the superiority come from ?

Hundreds of years ago....every culture burnt witches, every culture had slavery.......and in every culture women were chatel.....except for the rare few......but Western Civilization developed the philosophies and the attitudes and the means to make men and women free and equal...

There is still slavery in Africa....

We ended all of those practices...do you realize that?

 

[2aguy]

There is no western tradition of acceptance of new and different ideas. Where did you get the idea that there was such a tradition? BTW to answer your question...no. Your culture is great if it achieves the goals you want. Those goals are different for each culture.

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

Except they admitted as much and passed a congressional resolution documenting that fact. Sorry.

Wrong......look it up....they did not base the American system on the indians....I have looked it up and posted about it in the past...the most they said is that even primitives like the indians can put something together....we can do a lot better.....

 

[2aguy]

There is no western tradition of acceptance of new and different ideas. Where did you get the idea that there was such a tradition? BTW to answer your question...no. Your culture is great if it achieves the goals you want. Those goals are different for each culture.

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

Except they admitted as much and passed a congressional resolution documenting that fact. Sorry.

It took 10 seconds or a little more....

Viral meme says Constitution 'owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois'

The case against Iroquois influence

Despite this, many scholars have concluded that the evidence is short of convincing.

• The Iroquois government is in some ways radically different than the U.S. government.

For starters, the Iroquois’ federal system arguably bears more resemblance to the United Nations than the American federal system, focusing primarily on diplomacy.

The Iroquois council "was particularly concerned with matters of alliance, with the continuing firm alliance of the five member nations and alliances with other nations. It did not concern itself with the internal relations of the constituent nations," Tooker noted in a 1988 paper.

More important, the Iroquois system is based on hereditary positions and clan-based leadership -- elements that are entirely foreign to the United States’ system (and arguably seem more similar to the British system the colonists were trying to escape). The Iroquois League’s governmental power was vested in a council of 50 chiefs known as sachems. Each sachem had a title that was essentially hereditary, and each of these titles belonged to a particular clan within a particular tribe. (The meme does have a point about the role of women: The successor to a League chief was chosen by the "clan mother," the senior woman of the clan.)

The division of council seats was fixed, but without any relation to the member nation’s population size. Meanwhile, as the council’s "firekeepers," the Onondagas had the the responsibility of presenting the matter to be discussed, Tooker wrote. And the council acted based on consensus, rather than by majority rule, as became the system under the Constitution of 1787.

"There is little in this system of governance the Founding Fathers might have been expected to copy," Tooker wrote. "It is doubtful, for example, that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention meeting during the legendary long, hot Philadelphia summer of 1787 would have proposed a system under which only their relatives could become members of Congress, and a system under which each legislator was chosen by a close female relative of the previous holder of the office. Nor does it seem likely -- even if John Adams had heeded his wife's admonition to ‘remember the ladies’ -- that if such a hereditary system had been adopted, the Constitutional Convention would have opted for matrilineal inheritance of office, which by its very nature excludes a son from succeeding to his father's position."

• Even if there was some Iroquois influence, it wasn’t the primary shaper of the Constitution. This is where the Facebook meme really overplays its hand. You don’t have to be a total denier of Iroquois influence to acknowledge that the meme goes too far when it says "the U.S. Constitution owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois Tribes."

The traditionally cited sources of inspiration for the drafters, including ancient Greek and prior European thought, played a significant role -- almost certainly a decisive one.

"Even if the Iroquois Confederation was similar to the Constitution, which it was not, and even if some Americans admired aspects of Indian culture, that does not mean the Framers emulated Native American systems," said Stewart Jay, a University of Washington law professor and author of Mortal Words: A History of the U.S. Constitution: Volume 1, Origins to World War II.

Jay added that more broadly, the democratic nature of the U.S. Constitution was greatly refined and extended by the civil rights amendments adopted after the Civil War, which were hardly conceived with Iroquois principles in mind.

Gautham Rao, an American University historian and author of the forthcoming At The Water’s Edge: Commerce, Governance and the Origins of the American State, concurred. "It is a fairly important idea that a great many societies and networks influenced American constitutional thought, the Iroquois among them," Rao said.

"But it is not true that the concept of ‘democracy’ embodied in the U.S. Constitution was directly suggested by the Iroquois."

 

[Asclepias]

You can tell how much the rest of the world eschews western culture by the way they're all trying to emulate it.

That doesn't mean that it is better, which you still haven't defined.

Lots of people support Trump and that doesn't mean he is better.

I think we can easily measure the accomplishments of Western Civilization and compare them with the history of other cultures.

When will you define better?

"Better" meaning in comparison with other cultures. Islamic Arab culture, for example, is clearly inferior to Western Civilization. How many books are published in predominantly Islamic nations? Any idea about that?

Why is it necessary to you to be better? The West has focused on the individual as the most important focus. Others find society as a whole to be more important. The twain shall never meet.

In this post lies the truth.and the answer to the OP. Though I disagree the two shall never meet because they have existed before and still do in some parts of the world left untouched by western culture, the best societies are able to balance the needs of the individual and society.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

There is no western tradition of acceptance of new and different ideas. Where did you get the idea that there was such a tradition? BTW to answer your question...no. Your culture is great if it achieves the goals you want. Those goals are different for each culture.

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

But western civilisation burnt witches and kept slaves. Women couldnt vote , in fact in most countries voting was restricted due to property rights. Where does the superiority come from ?

Hundreds of years ago....every culture burnt witches, every culture had slavery.......and in every culture women were chatel.....except for the rare few......but Western Civilization developed the philosophies and the attitudes and the means to make men and women free and equal...

There is still slavery in Africa....

We ended all of those practices...do you realize that?

What you are talking about is a very recent thing. In the UK women were not entitled to vote until 1929. Many other,albeit lesser, restrictions were in place after that. In the US black people were prevented from voting till the 60s.
These steps forward were not particularly offered up by a wise and benign state either. They were fought for and blood was spilt.

 

[Asclepias]

There is no western tradition of acceptance of new and different ideas. Where did you get the idea that there was such a tradition? BTW to answer your question...no. Your culture is great if it achieves the goals you want. Those goals are different for each culture.

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

Except they admitted as much and passed a congressional resolution documenting that fact. Sorry.

It took 10 seconds or a little more....

Viral meme says Constitution 'owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois'

The case against Iroquois influence

Despite this, many scholars have concluded that the evidence is short of convincing.

• The Iroquois government is in some ways radically different than the U.S. government.

For starters, the Iroquois’ federal system arguably bears more resemblance to the United Nations than the American federal system, focusing primarily on diplomacy.

The Iroquois council "was particularly concerned with matters of alliance, with the continuing firm alliance of the five member nations and alliances with other nations. It did not concern itself with the internal relations of the constituent nations," Tooker noted in a 1988 paper.

More important, the Iroquois system is based on hereditary positions and clan-based leadership -- elements that are entirely foreign to the United States’ system (and arguably seem more similar to the British system the colonists were trying to escape). The Iroquois League’s governmental power was vested in a council of 50 chiefs known as sachems. Each sachem had a title that was essentially hereditary, and each of these titles belonged to a particular clan within a particular tribe. (The meme does have a point about the role of women: The successor to a League chief was chosen by the "clan mother," the senior woman of the clan.)

The division of council seats was fixed, but without any relation to the member nation’s population size. Meanwhile, as the council’s "firekeepers," the Onondagas had the the responsibility of presenting the matter to be discussed, Tooker wrote. And the council acted based on consensus, rather than by majority rule, as became the system under the Constitution of 1787.

"There is little in this system of governance the Founding Fathers might have been expected to copy," Tooker wrote. "It is doubtful, for example, that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention meeting during the legendary long, hot Philadelphia summer of 1787 would have proposed a system under which only their relatives could become members of Congress, and a system under which each legislator was chosen by a close female relative of the previous holder of the office. Nor does it seem likely -- even if John Adams had heeded his wife's admonition to ‘remember the ladies’ -- that if such a hereditary system had been adopted, the Constitutional Convention would have opted for matrilineal inheritance of office, which by its very nature excludes a son from succeeding to his father's position."

• Even if there was some Iroquois influence, it wasn’t the primary shaper of the Constitution. This is where the Facebook meme really overplays its hand. You don’t have to be a total denier of Iroquois influence to acknowledge that the meme goes too far when it says "the U.S. Constitution owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois Tribes."

The traditionally cited sources of inspiration for the drafters, including ancient Greek and prior European thought, played a significant role -- almost certainly a decisive one.

"Even if the Iroquois Confederation was similar to the Constitution, which it was not, and even if some Americans admired aspects of Indian culture, that does not mean the Framers emulated Native American systems," said Stewart Jay, a University of Washington law professor and author of Mortal Words: A History of the U.S. Constitution: Volume 1, Origins to World War II.

Jay added that more broadly, the democratic nature of the U.S. Constitution was greatly refined and extended by the civil rights amendments adopted after the Civil War, which were hardly conceived with Iroquois principles in mind.

Gautham Rao, an American University historian and author of the forthcoming At The Water’s Edge: Commerce, Governance and the Origins of the American State, concurred. "It is a fairly important idea that a great many societies and networks influenced American constitutional thought, the Iroquois among them," Rao said. "But it is not true that the concept of ‘democracy’ embodied in the U.S. Constitution was directly suggested by the Iroquois."

I guess you should have taken more than 20 or 30 seconds.

The bad thing about the internet is that if you look for misinformation and ignorance, someone will be there to make you believe it. How did you let such an easily checked claim lead you to the misinformation? Thanks for being an excellent example of how searching for what you want to find instead of the facts can trip you up.

Great Law of Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Text of H.Con.Res. 331 (100th): A concurrent resolution to acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations ... (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

"
Whereas the original framers of the Constitution, including, most
notably, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, are known
to have greatly admired the concepts of the Six Nations of the
Iroquois Confederacy;
Whereas the confederation of the original Thirteen Colonies into
one republic was influenced by the political system developed by
the Iroquois Confederacy as were many of the democratic prin-
ciples which were incorporated into the Constitution itself; and.
Whereas, since the formation of the United States, the Congress has
recognized the sovereign status of Indian tribes and has, through....."

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Hundreds of years ago....every culture burnt witches, every culture had slavery.......and in every culture women were chatel.....except for the rare few......but Western Civilization developed the philosophies and the attitudes and the means to make men and women free and equal...

There is still slavery in Africa....

We ended all of those practices...do you realize that?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Too many in the west have lost the ability to believe in themselves, as they are so caught up in politically-correct cultural relativism that they have merely reversed earlier notions of supremacy. The other is now afforded greater respect than their own, even if this other is abysmally backwards in their customs -- thus this ridiculous need to assault their own through these tu quoque fallacies that compare apples to oranges.

THese attitudes will end up being the death of us all if they ever prevail.

 

[Asclepias]

There is no western tradition of acceptance of new and different ideas. Where did you get the idea that there was such a tradition? BTW to answer your question...no. Your culture is great if it achieves the goals you want. Those goals are different for each culture.

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

But western civilisation burnt witches and kept slaves. Women couldnt vote , in fact in most countries voting was restricted due to property rights. Where does the superiority come from ?

Hundreds of years ago....every culture burnt witches, every culture had slavery.......and in every culture women were chatel.....except for the rare few......but Western Civilization developed the philosophies and the attitudes and the means to make men and women free and equal...

There is still slavery in Africa....

We ended all of those practices...do you realize that?

There is still slavery in the US. Matter of fact slavery is still legal in the US. I'm assuming you didnt realize that?

 

[Weatherman2020]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

 

[Asclepias]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

 

[Weatherman2020]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

 

[Asclepias]

Do our western traditions of open discussion and acceptance of new and different ideas create the conditions for successful societies? Are the virtues and attributes of western culture inherently superior to others?

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

I was going to thank you for agreeing then I noticed you made up something no one else was talking about. We are talking about western culture not governments.

 

[2aguy]

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

Except they admitted as much and passed a congressional resolution documenting that fact. Sorry.

It took 10 seconds or a little more....

Viral meme says Constitution 'owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois'

The case against Iroquois influence

Despite this, many scholars have concluded that the evidence is short of convincing.

• The Iroquois government is in some ways radically different than the U.S. government.

For starters, the Iroquois’ federal system arguably bears more resemblance to the United Nations than the American federal system, focusing primarily on diplomacy.



The Iroquois council "was particularly concerned with matters of alliance, with the continuing firm alliance of the five member nations and alliances with other nations. It did not concern itself with the internal relations of the constituent nations," Tooker noted in a 1988 paper.

More important, the Iroquois system is based on hereditary positions and clan-based leadership -- elements that are entirely foreign to the United States’ system (and arguably seem more similar to the British system the colonists were trying to escape). The Iroquois League’s governmental power was vested in a council of 50 chiefs known as sachems. Each sachem had a title that was essentially hereditary, and each of these titles belonged to a particular clan within a particular tribe. (The meme does have a point about the role of women: The successor to a League chief was chosen by the "clan mother," the senior woman of the clan.)

The division of council seats was fixed, but without any relation to the member nation’s population size. Meanwhile, as the council’s "firekeepers," the Onondagas had the the responsibility of presenting the matter to be discussed, Tooker wrote. And the council acted based on consensus, rather than by majority rule, as became the system under the Constitution of 1787.

"There is little in this system of governance the Founding Fathers might have been expected to copy," Tooker wrote. "It is doubtful, for example, that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention meeting during the legendary long, hot Philadelphia summer of 1787 would have proposed a system under which only their relatives could become members of Congress, and a system under which each legislator was chosen by a close female relative of the previous holder of the office. Nor does it seem likely -- even if John Adams had heeded his wife's admonition to ‘remember the ladies’ -- that if such a hereditary system had been adopted, the Constitutional Convention would have opted for matrilineal inheritance of office, which by its very nature excludes a son from succeeding to his father's position."

• Even if there was some Iroquois influence, it wasn’t the primary shaper of the Constitution. This is where the Facebook meme really overplays its hand. You don’t have to be a total denier of Iroquois influence to acknowledge that the meme goes too far when it says "the U.S. Constitution owes its notion of democracy to the Iroquois Tribes."

The traditionally cited sources of inspiration for the drafters, including ancient Greek and prior European thought, played a significant role -- almost certainly a decisive one.

"Even if the Iroquois Confederation was similar to the Constitution, which it was not, and even if some Americans admired aspects of Indian culture, that does not mean the Framers emulated Native American systems," said Stewart Jay, a University of Washington law professor and author of Mortal Words: A History of the U.S. Constitution: Volume 1, Origins to World War II.

Jay added that more broadly, the democratic nature of the U.S. Constitution was greatly refined and extended by the civil rights amendments adopted after the Civil War, which were hardly conceived with Iroquois principles in mind.

Gautham Rao, an American University historian and author of the forthcoming At The Water’s Edge: Commerce, Governance and the Origins of the American State, concurred. "It is a fairly important idea that a great many societies and networks influenced American constitutional thought, the Iroquois among them," Rao said. "But it is not true that the concept of ‘democracy’ embodied in the U.S. Constitution was directly suggested by the Iroquois."

I guess you should have taken more than 20 or 30 seconds.

The bad thing about the internet is that if you look for misinformation and ignorance, someone will be there to make you believe it. How did you let such an easily checked claim lead you to the misinformation? Thanks for being an excellent example of how searching for what you want to find instead of the facts can trip you up.

Great Law of Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Text of H.Con.Res. 331 (100th): A concurrent resolution to acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations ... (Passed Congress/Enrolled Bill version) - GovTrack.us

"
Whereas the original framers of the Constitution, including, most
notably, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, are known
to have greatly admired the concepts of the Six Nations of the
Iroquois Confederacy;
Whereas the confederation of the original Thirteen Colonies into
one republic was influenced by the political system developed by
the Iroquois Confederacy as were many of the democratic prin-
ciples which were incorporated into the Constitution itself; and.
Whereas, since the formation of the United States, the Congress has
recognized the sovereign status of Indian tribes and has, through....."

Really....you are going to cite a resolution passed by a bunch of politicians as a favor to the only indian American in congress in 1988........... as proof that the Founders used the stone age primitives as their guiding light....vs......the long history of governments and philosophical study of the west that they did.....


Yeah....not impressed........

Try actually reading the Federalist Papers.......

 

[2aguy]

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

But western civilisation burnt witches and kept slaves. Women couldnt vote , in fact in most countries voting was restricted due to property rights. Where does the superiority come from ?

Hundreds of years ago....every culture burnt witches, every culture had slavery.......and in every culture women were chatel.....except for the rare few......but Western Civilization developed the philosophies and the attitudes and the means to make men and women free and equal...

There is still slavery in Africa....

We ended all of those practices...do you realize that?

There is still slavery in the US. Matter of fact slavery is still legal in the US. I'm assuming you didnt realize that?

Really....and where would that be.......other than in democrat cities......