How to Define GENOCIDE?

[sparky]

You realize that is about new trade routes to avoid Houthi attacks right?

I realize all conflict on this rock has some economic agenda TN

& thx for making it official .......~S~

 

[sparky]

- The goal of Hamas is to gain freedom.

- The goal of Zionism is to prevent the Palestinians from attaining their freedom.

It's 'why' that is interesting Glas

~S~

 

[gipper]

I'm not sure how anyone could look at the massive destruction and leveling of almost an entire city and say that their actions don't match those statements. It seems to me they're trying to do exactly what they said they were going to do from the start.

Whether they finish what they said they were going to do remains to be seen. Maybe they won't. But if we're talking about intent alone, I haven't seen any reason to disbelieve the intent in those initial statements. The only reason I can think of that you would say their actions don't match is that maybe you're believing all of their subsequent words, since the whole thing started, for example, about "human shields" etc. Is that why?

Anyone who claims it’s not genocide is either uninformed or duped by corporate media.

When you displace over 2million people and destroy their land and mass murder thousands indiscriminately, forcing them into a small space with limited food and water, ITS A FUCKING GENOCIDE!

 

[gipper]

I realize all conflict on this rock has some economic agenda TN

& thx for making it official .......~S~

So true. We need a new system where war doesn’t result in economic benefits.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not sure how anyone could look at the massive destruction and leveling of almost an entire city and say that their actions don't match those statements. It seems to me they're trying to do exactly what they said they were going to do from the start.

Whether they finish what they said they were going to do remains to be seen. Maybe they won't. But if we're talking about intent alone, I haven't seen any reason to disbelieve the intent in those initial statements. The only reason I can think of that you would say their actions don't match is that maybe you're believing all of their subsequent words, since the whole thing started, for example, about "human shields" etc. Is that why?

This article gives a pretty good look at the rhetoric…and it is hard to sift through propaganda and fact.

Has Israel set out to demolish Gaza and make it unlivable…a vengeance worthy of the Bible? Targeting and attacking civilian infrastructure (such as farmland where it seems unlikely Hamas could be hiding) makes me wonder. But so far I don’t see them deliberately targeting civilians in the way Russia did in Ukraine and if it wanted to exterminate them, they easily could do so. 99% are still alive.

Genocide is also not the only war crime. I do think we will find some war crimes have beencommitted, certainly by Hamas but also by Israel.

 

[buttercup]

Anyone who claims it’s not genocide is either uninformed or duped by corporate media.

When you displace over 2million people and destroy their land and mass murder thousands indiscriminately, forcing them into a small space with limited food and water, ITS A FUCKING GENOCIDE!

I think one of the problems is that not everyone is on the same page when it comes to the definition of genocide.

I've heard people say things like, "How can it be genocide if 98% of the population is still alive?"

You might've already said this earlier on the thread, but for the sake of clarity, what is your definition of genocide, in your own words?

Because not everyone has the same definition in mind, I haven't been using that word. However, I WILL say this.... I think it's undeniable that the language that was used by Netanyahu and some other government officials about the Palestinians, is genocidal. Which I think shows intent.

But to what extent that intent translates to achieving that goal remains to be seen. Does that make sense?

Since it's a couple pages back, I'll just post the video again.

 

[Coyote]

Anyone who claims it’s not genocide is either uninformed or duped by corporate media.

When you displace over 2million people and destroy their land and mass murder thousands indiscriminately, forcing them into a small space with limited food and water, ITS A FUCKING GENOCIDE!

99% are still alive, how is that genocide?

 

[Coyote]

I realize all conflict on this rock has some economic agenda TN

& thx for making it official .......~S~

How much of our economy revolves around massive arms sales?

 

[Shusha]

Anyone who claims it’s not genocide is either uninformed or duped by corporate media.

When you displace over 2million people and destroy their land and mass murder thousands indiscriminately, forcing them into a small space with limited food and water, ITS A FUCKING GENOCIDE!

Evacuation of civilians from an area is not equivalent to a forced displacement for other purposes. Evacuation is a common and widely-accepted practice for preventing civilian deaths in conflict.

There is no evidence of indiscriminate actions, nor of targeting civilians by Israel.

Israel has fulfilled all requirements of IHL to permit access of humanitarian aide.

Your accusations are false and you are misusing the term genocide.

 

[Shusha]

... Targeting and attacking civilian infrastructure (such as farmland where it seems unlikely Hamas could be hiding) makes me wonder. ...

The articles I've read on the subject, specifically of farmland, claim military objectives or destruction in the normal course of, you know, driving tanks around and such, and NOT an intent to deliberately destroy food production.

 

[GLASNOST]

- The goal of Hamas is to gain freedom.

- The goal of Zionism is to prevent the Palestinians from attaining their freedom.

It's 'why' that is interesting Glas

~S~

As always.

 

[Coyote]

The articles I've read on the subject, specifically of farmland, claim military objectives or destruction in the normal course of, you know, driving tanks around and such, and NOT an intent to deliberately destroy food production.

I’m going to hold off on this until conflict is over and and any potential war crimes investigated. It is impossible for me to not be a little skeptical given remarks made by ranking ministers about making Gaza uninhabitable, as well the fact that they put Gaza under a siege blocking even food and water and for a long time humanitarian aid as well.

 

[GLASNOST]

When you displace over 2million people and destroy their land and mass murder thousands indiscriminately, forcing them into a small space with limited food and water, ITS A FUCKING GENOCIDE!

Yes.

99% are still alive ...

I'm sure that's not true.

 

[Coyote]

- The goal of Hamas is to gain freedom.

- The goal of Zionism is to prevent the Palestinians from attaining their freedom.

The goal of Hamas is not freedom certainly not for the Palestinians who experience very LITTLE freedom under Hamas.

”Freedom fighters“ who attack, torture and slaughter innocent civilians at a music festival are not about freedom, but terrorism. We normally put people like that in jail…assuming they don’t kill themselves first. Killing children and civilians is the act of a coward.

 

[Shusha]

... However, I WILL say this.... I think it's undeniable that the language that was used by Netanyahu and some other government officials about the Palestinians, is genocidal. Which I think shows intent.

Some of the language used is horrific and dehumanizing. I do not support it.

A couple of points, though.

1. It matters who is speaking. A random veteran spewing vile hatred does not suggest a legally sound argument for the intent necessary to prove genocide. Nor does any "former" member of random government agency. If the charge of genocide is against the STATE of Israel, then you would have to prove a systematic, deliberate intent by those in the current government of the STATE.

2. Some of those statements are reactionary, and understandably so, as the people and government of Israel were actively fighting in the first few days after the invasion and coming to understand the scale of the atrocities committed. Still not okay, and not something I would support, but understandable and not evidence of intent to commit genocide.

3. The Jewish, or at least my understanding of the Jewish, reference to Amalek is WAY more complicated than a simple and clear intent to commit genocide, especially as a legal argument. Yeah, I know that sounds like a shitty excuse, and yeah, I call people out when they try to excuse other religious terminology like "intifada" and "jihad". Still. Bibi's audience was a Jewish audience in that clip, and they would know the richer definition, especially the appeal to remember.

4. As you brought up, the actions do not suggest an intent.

 

[Coyote]

Yes.

I'm sure that's not true.

As of a couple of months ago, an estimated 1% of tbe population had been killed. Since then, the numbers have not increased enough (even given that many are likely still buried in the rubble) to alter that. Thus 99%.

 

[Shusha]

I’m going to hold off on this until conflict is over and and any potential war crimes investigated. It is impossible for me to not be a little skeptical given remarks made by ranking ministers about making Gaza uninhabitable, as well the fact that they put Gaza under a siege blocking even food and water and for a long time humanitarian aid as well.

That is fair and reasonable. I will also be interested in seeing investigations and reports when all this is done. Israel didn't control the Rafah crossing until just recently, though, yes?

 

[buttercup]

This article gives a pretty good look at the rhetoric…and it is hard to sift through propaganda and fact.

Has Israel set out to demolish Gaza and make it unlivable…a vengeance worthy of the Bible? Targeting and attacking civilian infrastructure (such as farmland where it seems unlikely Hamas could be hiding) makes me wonder. But so far I don’t see them deliberately targeting civilians in the way Russia did in Ukraine and if it wanted to exterminate them, they easily could do so. 99% are still alive.

Genocide is also not the only war crime. I do think we will find some war crimes have beencommitted, certainly by Hamas but also by Israel.

Like I said in my previous post to you, it depends on what you are believing. Keep in mind that in war, truth is the first casualty.

There have been conflicting reports on what has actually been happening there in the last 7 months. The MSM (which is controlled by the same people who want all these wars in the M.E) says one thing.... but there have been many times when independent media, individuals and various organizations who were actually there reported something very different. So who do you choose to believe?

I have been holding off on stating definitive conclusions one way or the other on things I may not be able to prove.

But I will say this... setting aside the "war" for now, when it comes to the event that started the whole thing, there is evidence it was a false flag. Evidence is not the same thing as proof, mind you. But there's enough evidence, in my view, to at the very least question what started this "war" in the first place and dig deeper.

Also keep in mind, historically, so many wars start based on lies and false pretenses.

I've posted this before, but here's something for you to watch:

 

[BackAgain]

Yep! The Zionist NAZIS definitely qualify for the definition of subjecting the Palestinians to GENOCIDE. There can be no doubt about it.

Nope. No intent

Your fail is highly public here on this fairly tiny Board. Especially since the stupid thread is yours.

Cool.

 

[gipper]

99% are still alive, how is that genocide?

Lol. I did not think you too were this uninformed. You like so many here think genocide only refers to deaths. It does not and it’s not hard to find out what it means. Here it is AGAIN.

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide​

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml