Anyone have Noahide / Noachide Questions?

[midcan5]

I attempted to answer, but it got really long & it took me a long time, so I think I "timed out" or something. I got automatically logged out without finishing my post.

I'll try again, but can someone tell me what the limits are so it doesn't happen again?

Just go back in browser or log back in. If you go back copy/paste as suggested, and I would definitely advise using a text editor, if you have something long you want to share.

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Seems we have enough religions but not enough goodness imho. And these vary a bit.

Noahide.org - Home Page

A robust and healthy legal system, administering justice fairly, creates a society worthy of G-d’s blessings. Establishing a system of judges, courts, and officials to maintain and enforce the law is a far-reaching responsibility. This precept translates the ideals of our personal life into a formal order for society at large. It is the extension and guarantee of all the preceding laws.

1. BELIEF IN G-D - Do not worship Idols
2. RESPECT G-D AND PRAISE HIM - Do Not Blaspheme His Name
3. RESPECT HUMAN LIFE - Do not Murder
4. RESPECT THE FAMILY - Do Not Commit Immoral Sexual Acts
5. RESPECT FOR OTHERS’ RIGHTS AND PROPERTY - Do Not Steal
6. CREATION OF A JUDICIAL SYSTEM - Pursue Justice
7. RESPECT ALL CREATURES - Do not be cruel to animals.

 

[midcan5]

1) What if a gay person wants to be a Noahide

That's depends on how they interpret number 4 above, see nothing really is simple.

 

[random3434]

That's depends on how they interpret number 4 above, see nothing really is simple.

But gay couples can have/be a family too.



*And as we know, there are a lot of immoral straight couples/familes.

 

[Kim]

1) What if a gay person wants to be a Noahide?

2) Still not sure, are Noahide's considered "Christians?" Do they believe Jesus is their savior?

I'll take your second question in a separate post. As to a gay person wanting to be a Noahide, that's a good question.

Progression:
If a person is not Jewish, they are automatically a Noahide (Gentile). So no one has to "become" a Noahide. If a person believes in God, they probably pray and eventually, want to know more about God. A progression begins at this point. Which God do you believe in? Do you create a god in your mind that fits your perception of what you think God should be? Are you curious enough to read the Bible?

Noahides believe that the God revealed in the Bible is the only "real" God and that the Bible (Tanach / Christian Old Testament) is the main vehicle God uses to communicate with us. So, this is how we get to know God - how God interacts with humanity, including instructions that will help us live a better life than we can live without God's help.

Yes, the Bible teaches that a man having sex with a man is illicit intercourse. But it also teaches us that gossip (evil speech) about another is harmful human behavior. Yet, do you know anyone who does not gossip, anyone who does not say unkind things about other people? Both are "prohibited" biblically, and to overcome these behaviors takes conviction.

In order to change any behavior, I have to be convinced that it is harmful either to myself or to another or to society in general. Since I believe in God and believe that the Bible comes (one way or another) from this same God, then I look to the Bible to help me sort out what is good (beneficial / serves the purpose for which it was created) or not good.

Once a person reaches this stage of progression towards God, they will begin to discover what behaviors they want to change, why, and at their own pace, they will be able to change them.

 

[dilloduck]

I'll take your second question in a separate post. As to a gay person wanting to be a Noahide, that's a good question.

Progression:
If a person is not Jewish, they are automatically a Noahide (Gentile). So no one has to "become" a Noahide. If a person believes in God, they probably pray and eventually, want to know more about God. A progression begins at this point. Which God do you believe in? Do you create a god in your mind that fits your perception of what you think God should be? Are you curious enough to read the Bible?

Noahides believe that the God revealed in the Bible is the only "real" God and that the Bible (Tanach / Christian Old Testament) is the main vehicle God uses to communicate with us. So, this is how we get to know God - how God interacts with humanity, including instructions that will help us live a better life than we can live without God's help.

Yes, the Bible teaches that a man having sex with a man is illicit intercourse. But it also teaches us that gossip (evil speech) about another is harmful human behavior. Yet, do you know anyone who does not gossip, anyone who does not say unkind things about other people? Both are "prohibited" biblically, and to overcome these behaviors takes conviction.

In order to change any behavior, I have to be convinced that it is harmful either to myself or to another or to society in general. Since I believe in God and believe that the Bible comes (one way or another) from this same God, then I look to the Bible to help me sort out what is good (beneficial / serves the purpose for which it was created) or not good.

Once a person reaches this stage of progression towards God, they will begin to discover what behaviors they want to change, why, and at their own pace, they will be able to change them.

Point of order here, Kim. Since one is just a Noahide by default, it can't be said that Noahides believe this or that. Noahides are simply non-jews. No dogma needed to accomplish that.

 

[Kim]

1) What if a gay person wants to be a Noahide?

2) Still not sure, are Noahide's considered "Christians?" Do they believe Jesus is their savior?

The short answer is "no" to both questions, but this is a huge topic all by itself.

Most people who are involved in the Noahide Movement are ex-Chistians. Most of us studied the Bible, including the New Testament and eventually came to the conclusion that the Christian religion is not compatible with biblical (Tanach / Old Testament) teachings. This was a long, difficult, and emotional journey for most of us. And when each of us came to this conclusion, we felt totally alone. Eventually, we began finding other people who believed as we did - which is how the modern-day Noahide Movement began.

For instance, the Noahide "law" that idolatry is prohibited includes not only making an idol and praying or bowing down to it, but it also includes not considering any thing or anyone to be God, or equal to God. That includes Caesar in Roman times, the Pharoah in Egyptian times, and also Jesus.

Personally, I don't believe Jesus believed he was God or equal with God; after all, he prayed to God just as we do. I think there are a lot of Christian teachings and doctrines today that Jesus, himself, would have condemned.

On with the discussion...

 

[Kim]

Point of order here, Kim. Since one is just a Noahide by default, it can't be said that Noahides believe this or that. Noahides are simply non-jews. No dogma needed to accomplish that.

It's true that, according to my belief, all Gentiles are Noahides. But those who call themselves Noahide today, are those people who are attempting to live according to how the Bible teaches us to live - the reason that Noah was called "righteous" in his generation. So, it's a matter or whether or not a person strives to "observe" those teachings or not.

I guess the term becomes important for those people who want to distance themselves from religious labels that promote teachings or doctrines that we don't agree with.

 

[Kim]

But gay couples can have/be a family too.



*And as we know, there are a lot of immoral straight couples/familes.

I can definitely understand your response to the above post.

The list of Noahide "laws" quoted in the above post, #4 "respecting families", is someone's way of simplifying (interpreting) the illicit intercourse prohibition. But this category of instruction is NOT "respecting families"; the category is illicit intercourse - regarding sexual behavior.

 

[dilloduck]

It's true that, according to my belief, all Gentiles are Noahides. But those who call themselves Noahide today, are those people who are attempting to live according to how the Bible teaches us to live - the reason that Noah was called "righteous" in his generation. So, it's a matter or whether or not a person strives to "observe" those teachings or not.

I guess the term becomes important for those people who want to distance themselves from religious labels that promote teachings or doctrines that we don't agree with.

HUH ? It's particulary important to be called an observant Noahide so that you are mistaken as what ?

 

[Kim]

HUH ? It's particulary important to be called an observant Noahide so that you are mistaken as what ?

Personally, I used to be bothered by given any label, including Noahide, and preferred to just say I believe in God and the Bible. But that could mean just about anything, including things I don't agree with. And, yes, there are websites where people are calling themselves Noahides, when they are actually promoting Christianity.

Those who today consider themselves to be part of the Noahide Movement take the Noahide label to show that we believe in and try to observe the 7 Noahide laws (teachings). We don't want to be mistaken as adherants to other religions.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Kim]

OK, are they (you) considered Christians? This is fascinating, since I've never heard of it before.
Is it a religion, or a movement?

Gotta love the message board!

Personally, I consider it more of a movement than a religion. But since we all do believe in the God of the Bible (Tanach / Old Testament) and pray, I guess you could call it a religion or a religious movement. But we don't have religious rituals or emotional practices of what we normally think of as "religious."

We did not create a new religion (which is actually forbidden in the Bible). We have the same God and strive to adhere to the same way of life that caused Noah to be termed "righteous" in his generation. And based on my studies, I believe this to be permanent. In other words, what God instructed Gentiles to do & not to do in the Bible did not change when the nation of Israel emerged; though that nation (people) were given additional "laws" for a specific purpose; but those additional laws did not pertain to the rest of humanity (Gentiles). And I believe that the Bible did not change its teachings to Gentiles when Christianity, Islam, or other religions came into being. In my belief, these are man-made religions with all the inherant shortcomings that entails.

 

[dilloduck]

Personally, I consider it more of a movement than a religion. But since we all do believe in the God of the Bible (Tanach / Old Testament) and pray, I guess you could call it a religion or a religious movement. But we don't have religious rituals or emotional practices of what we normally think of as "religious."

We did not create a new religion (which is actually forbidden in the Bible). We have the same God and strive to adhere to the same way of life that caused Noah to be termed "righteous" in his generation. And based on my studies, I believe this to be permanent. In other words, what God instructed Gentiles to do & not to do in the Bible did not change when the nation of Israel emerged; though that nation (people) were given additional "laws" for a specific purpose; but those additional laws did not pertain to the rest of humanity (Gentiles). And I believe that the Bible did not change its teachings to Gentiles when Christianity, Islam, or other religions came into being. In my belief, these are man-made religions with all the inherant shortcomings that entails.

Why does God discriminate between Jews and Noahides ?

 

[Kim]

Why does God discriminate between Jews and Noahides ?

That is a really good question. Based on years of conversations with others, I believe that most people don’t know the answer. First, I want to remind you that I am not Jewish.

Millions of people share two foundational beliefs: 1) a belief in God, and 2) that this God is the God revealed in the pages of the Bible (specifically, the Tanakh / Old Testament). Logically, you would think that this would unify all these people into one single religion.

Instead, we ended up with the “Three Monotheistic Faiths” of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (which developed in that order), and multiple denominations within each of them. We all believe in the same God. We all started with the same texts called the Tanakh in Judaism (the Old Testament in Christianity). Christians misunderstood the Tanakh, so they added the New Testament. Islam’s Koran begins with the text of the Tanakh, but then, the authors made changes to some of the text and then added texts of their own, just as Christians had done.

I think there are two main reasons for this: 1) Most people read a translation of the Bible (filled with translation errors) instead of the original language of the text, and 2) Most people don’t understand why God differentiates between Israel (Jews) and the rest of humanity.

Starting with Abraham, God begins to give specific commandments that He/she tells Abraham to obey, but does not require of all other people on earth – starting with male circumcision. Every male living with Abraham had to be circumcised, too. At this point, Abraham was already pretty old and Ishmael (his son by Hagar, his wife Sarah’s servant) was 13 years old. Starting that day, any male born of Abraham’s household was to be circumcised on the 8th day after birth. The Bible states that circumcision is to be a sign of the everlasting (permanent) covenant (agreement) between God and Abraham, a physical sign that because Abraham agreed to obey God (no matter how difficult), God would make Abraham’s physical line a “great” nation that would serve as a blessing to all of humanity, aka “a light unto the nations”.

The commandments given to Abraham (and later, to a specified portion of his physical lineage, Israel/Jews) would be difficult to obey – too difficult to expect of all humanity. Abraham’s household was large for a single household, but small enough for Abraham to ensure that every male was circumcised. Israel has always been a small nation, compared to other nations. Logically, the smaller the group of people, the easier it is to unite them for a single purpose. Commandments that were difficult and specific only to this group of people would not only differentiate them from others but would also serve to unite them. Otherwise, human nature being what it is, these people would eventually go off in all directions and blend into other nations instead of remaining one single nation.

So, the purpose of differentiating Israel (Jews) from the rest of humanity (Gentiles) was so that God could prepare them and maintain this group’s ability to fulfill a specific purpose for the benefit of all humanity. The purpose God gave them was to be the “people of the book”, the caretakers of the Bible – the information God gave us via Israel that would help all of us to live more fulfilling, less destructive, more compassionate lives. This is what is meant by giving Israel the job of being a “light to the nations.”

This action of God, to differentiate (not discriminate) between Jews and Gentiles is akin to a software company forming a department whose sole purpose is to write an instruction manual. All the employees were hired by the company; so obviously, all the people were “chosen” / considered worthy of being employees. But it only takes a few people – a small department – to get the instruction manual written. This department’s people are neither superior nor inferior to the rest of the employees. They were simply given a task to do, so they do it, because that’s what their boss asked them to do.

So, the commandments specific to Israel have served to set them apart, like a committee or department. The task they are given is to keep the text of the Bible (Tanakh) and all copies made of it as free of error as humanly possible so that it is a reliable source available to all humanity in all generations. Because of how seriously they have taken this charge, the 2,000 year old Hebrew-language scroll of the biblical book of Isaiah – on display in a museum in Israel – is 99.99 % identical to the Hebrew text I have in my home today. So, I’d say they do a very good job as the “people of the book.” In comparison, Christians and Muslims throughout the centuries have not shown this level of respect for the same texts. That’s understandable because they were not enabled to perform this task; it wasn’t their job. The Bible states that the “law” (Bible) shall come forth from Zion (Israel/Jews), not from anyone else.

But to serve as a “light to the nations” Israel would have to go a step further, to read, study the intricacies, and form solid textual-based hypotheses that stand up to scrutiny by other scholars of the text. Then, they must be able to apply this knowledge to new situations as they present themselves, or to newly discovered information not previously available for discussion. Not all Jewish people have this level of knowledge, so those who cannot reach this level help support capable scholars in each generation. A great deal of this study and scholarly debate and decision making has been recorded and is available today in text known as the “Oral Law.” In order to become an (Orthodox) rabbi, a person must learn both the Tanakh and the Oral Law, so that they can answer questions and teach others…including Gentiles (Noahides) like me, regarding biblical instructions and wisdom that apply to me.

I think a big reason that so many people are bothered about God differentiating between Jews and Gentiles is that they feel “slighted” as if God is saying that Jews are superior to Gentiles. But there is no favoritism, here. The “laws” God gave only to Israel are difficult to observe; I’m not jealous that they don’t apply to me; I’m relieved. And due to the common “fear of the stranger,” Jews have suffered immensely over the centuries at the hands of others simply because the way of life God gave them renders them “different” or “strange” to others. The common English translation of a biblical passage calls Israel God’s “special treasure.” No wonder some people get angry or jealous when they read that passage. But the correct translation is actually that Israel is God’s “peculiar” treasure. That means that, although all of humanity is God’s treasure, Israel is “peculiar” which means odd or different. It does not say Israel is superior in any way. And there are other passages that send a clear message to Israel that they are not better people than anyone else. Incorrect translations of biblical texts – and there are many – continue to cause great harm to the Jewish people and continue to cause division.

 

[Nemo Securus]

This seems like a good thing you people are doing but one thing i dont really get is...why still a need for a figurehead? Anyone with any morals can follow the 7 rules, without Noah. That part almost seems a bit silly to me. I could do the exact same thing and call it Adamide. Just an observation.

 

[Nemo Securus]

Personally, I consider it more of a movement than a religion. But since we all do believe in the God of the Bible (Tanach / Old Testament) and pray, I guess you could call it a religion or a religious movement. But we don't have religious rituals or emotional practices of what we normally think of as "religious."

We did not create a new religion (which is actually forbidden in the Bible). We have the same God and strive to adhere to the same way of life that caused Noah to be termed "righteous" in his generation. And based on my studies, I believe this to be permanent. In other words, what God instructed Gentiles to do & not to do in the Bible did not change when the nation of Israel emerged; though that nation (people) were given additional "laws" for a specific purpose; but those additional laws did not pertain to the rest of humanity (Gentiles). And I believe that the Bible did not change its teachings to Gentiles when Christianity, Islam, or other religions came into being. In my belief, these are man-made religions with all the inherant shortcomings that entails.

If I write a song but call it a poem, but clearly it has music and a melody, am I really being honest with myself?

 

[Kim]

This seems like a good thing you people are doing but one thing i dont really get is...why still a need for a figurehead? Anyone with any morals can follow the 7 rules, without Noah. That part almost seems a bit silly to me. I could do the exact same thing and call it Adamide. Just an observation.

Figurehead? Do you mean Noah as the figurehead? Originally, (20 years ago) I did not call myself a Noahide, but rather just a person who believes in God and the Bible. I chose to take on the Noahide label as the movement grew and more people knew what it meant to be an observant Noahide (observing the 7 "laws".

I think this label originated from Noah being called "righteous" in his generation in the Bible. The 7 "laws" are found or logically derived from the passages regarding Noah, not Adam.

Any person with any morals could observe some of the 7. Some seem logical methods of maintaining a peaceful society, like the prohibition against theft. But the prohibitions against idolatry and blasphemy are not necessarily logical; in order to observe these two, a person must read the Bible to understand what it teaches about how to view God.

The way a person views God effects society too. Those who believe that there is a "devil" that "makes them" do something bad, operate with an unbiblical view of God. That view results in people not taking responsibility for their own actions. If that were true that the devil is responsible and not people, then what would be the point of judges, courts, or jails.

 

[Kim]

If I write a song but call it a poem, but clearly it has music and a melody, am I really being honest with myself?

Sorry, I tend to take things too literally, so I don't understand what you mean here. Could you explain?

 

[Nemo Securus]

Figurehead? Do you mean Noah as the figurehead? Originally, (20 years ago) I did not call myself a Noahide, but rather just a person who believes in God and the Bible. I chose to take on the Noahide label as the movement grew and more people knew what it meant to be an observant Noahide (observing the 7 "laws".

I think this label originated from Noah being called "righteous" in his generation in the Bible. The 7 "laws" are found or logically derived from the passages regarding Noah, not Adam.

Any person with any morals could observe some of the 7. Some seem logical methods of maintaining a peaceful society, like the prohibition against theft. But the prohibitions against idolatry and blasphemy are not necessarily logical; in order to observe these two, a person must read the Bible to understand what it teaches about how to view God.

The way a person views God effects society too. Those who believe that there is a "devil" that "makes them" do something bad, operate with an unbiblical view of God. That view results in people not taking responsibility for their own actions. If that were true that the devil is responsible and not people, then what would be the point of judges, courts, or jails.

Yes a figurehead. Noah's the poster boy. Job was also righteous, the most righteous if im not mistaken. If G-d really is going to judge everyone in the end, devil or not there is no need for a judicial system, but wow this would be a wild place if all murderers and rapists were free. A lot of people look at Jesus as an example of how to live, not a god, how is this different?

 

[Nemo Securus]

Sorry, I tend to take things too literally, so I don't understand what you mean here. Could you explain?

It's a metaphor, If I write a book, but call it a stack of paper, would it fool you? Just think how this thought would apply to what all you have said.

 

[dilloduck]

Figurehead? Do you mean Noah as the figurehead? Originally, (20 years ago) I did not call myself a Noahide, but rather just a person who believes in God and the Bible. I chose to take on the Noahide label as the movement grew and more people knew what it meant to be an observant Noahide (observing the 7 "laws".

I think this label originated from Noah being called "righteous" in his generation in the Bible. The 7 "laws" are found or logically derived from the passages regarding Noah, not Adam.

Any person with any morals could observe some of the 7. Some seem logical methods of maintaining a peaceful society, like the prohibition against theft. But the prohibitions against idolatry and blasphemy are not necessarily logical; in order to observe these two, a person must read the Bible to understand what it teaches about how to view God.

The way a person views God effects society too. Those who believe that there is a "devil" that "makes them" do something bad, operate with an unbiblical view of God. That view results in people not taking responsibility for their own actions. If that were true that the devil is responsible and not people, then what would be the point of judges, courts, or jails.

a person must read the Bible to understand what it teaches about how to view God.

Not according to what you have said. People must interpret it correctly which can only be done by " the keepers of the book ".