CDZ Another Question for Gun Owners

[Skull Pilot]

you're more likely to have a gun taken from you than use it to defend your family.

This is a lie.

and you're certainly statistically more likely to shoot a family member or friend or have one of them shoot themselves or you.

This is also a lie.

my statements are true. but please go with the NRA party line.

The “Good Guy With a Gun” Is a Myth

my problem is not with guns, per se. it's with people who shouldn't have guns getting them

The argument you are using in bunk.

No CCW holder is obligated in anyway to draw his weapon to stop a criminal.

Quite frankly unless my or my wife's life is in jeopardy I will not draw my weapon and that is how it should be.

IMO if you're getting mugged or assaulted and you have chosen not to arm yourself and to let the police protect you then if my or my wife's life is not in danger I will call the cops for you and hope you don't get killed or permanently maimed before they show up.

See that's me respecting your choice. All you have to do is respect mine

Wow. Some of that is right in every way. Some of it is acceptable if not unequivocally virtuous. Some of it is ethically tolerable more so than acceptable. Some of it is ineffably turpitudinous morally. I don't often see such a spectrum of expressions from one person in so few words. Indeed, I can't honestly say I've seen that before.

I see nothing turpitudinous about my stance.

I have no moral, legal or ethical obligation to come to anyone's defense.

I have absolutely no right to tell other people what to do which also means I respect their personal choices.

If a person chooses to go unarmed then he is choosing to either rely on his martial arts skills or the police to come to his aid if his safety or life is ever threatened by a criminal.

If that person saw me getting assaulted all they could do is call the cops so why should I do more for them they they are willing to do for themselves or anyone else?

 

[FA_Q2]

you're more likely to have a gun taken from you than use it to defend your family.

This is a lie.

and you're certainly statistically more likely to shoot a family member or friend or have one of them shoot themselves or you.

This is also a lie.

my statements are true. but please go with the NRA party line.

The “Good Guy With a Gun” Is a Myth

my problem is not with guns, per se. it's with people who shouldn't have guns getting them

There were about 20 good guys with guns in Dallas. They ran like rabbits when the shooting started.

You complain that if guns are in an area the people carrying them will carelessly fire them killing innocents and harming the ability for the police to respond. Then, as this scenario essentially never seems to happen, you complain that they are running away.

You need to make up your mind.

Naw, I'll just stick with what happened in Dallas. About twenty Rambo wannabees march down the street with long guns, and when a single person fires at them, they all run like rabbits, and cause the police to waste time trying to figure out if they are the shooters.

They did exactly what they should have done - retreat and protect themselves and let the police take care of the situation as they are not vigilantes.


The only reason that you are upset is because all those bullshit scenarios that would help your gun control argument simply did not happen.

 

[M14 Shooter]

[
as for power...I have the same power as every other voter. and I'm certainly entitled to my opinions which are far more well-thought out than NRA shills'

 

[M14 Shooter]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

How many rounds should a person be allowed to defend their family with?

All of them.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

First of all you ignoramus, no one has to defend their reasoning for wanting a 100 round magazine. They only have to defend themselves if they commit a crime with such.

Second of all, no serious gun person is going to use a 100 round magazine. They are unwieldy and anyone knows that the larger the magazine the more likely a jam will occur.

Even in a fully automatic weapon such as my M16A1, a 30 rounder is all you want because well they jam up too often as it is, and a sustained 30 round burst will heat a barrel like crazy and the time taken to reload allows some of that heat to bleed off.

 

[Hiryuu]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

How many rounds should a person be allowed to defend their family with?

All of them.

Well, it is hard to argue with that. Perhaps I was just a tad bit optimistic, since Vandalshandle was so inclined as to mock or ridicule what anyone else may have to defend their family with, he/she would be willing to express what they thought was a more appropriate amount. It is quite interesting Vandalshandle isn't actually willing to express what they think is a better option.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

It's not up to you to tell other people what they need

I disagree. You not only do not need a 100 round magazine, you don't need a grenade, or a mortar, for self defence, or any other reason.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

How many rounds should a person be allowed to defend their family with?

I'm guess that if you need 100 rounds, you would spend your money more effectively investing in a pair of glasses that 100 bullets.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

How many rounds should a person be allowed to defend their family with?

All of them.

Well, it is hard to argue with that. Perhaps I was just a tad bit optimistic, since Vandalshandle was so inclined as to mock or ridicule what anyone else may have to defend their family with, he/she would be willing to express what they thought was a more appropriate amount. It is quite interesting Vandalshandle isn't actually willing to express what they think is a better option.

Trolls are like that.

 

[Vandalshandle]

This is a lie.

This is also a lie.

my statements are true. but please go with the NRA party line.

The “Good Guy With a Gun” Is a Myth

my problem is not with guns, per se. it's with people who shouldn't have guns getting them

There were about 20 good guys with guns in Dallas. They ran like rabbits when the shooting started.

You complain that if guns are in an area the people carrying them will carelessly fire them killing innocents and harming the ability for the police to respond. Then, as this scenario essentially never seems to happen, you complain that they are running away.

You need to make up your mind.

Naw, I'll just stick with what happened in Dallas. About twenty Rambo wannabees march down the street with long guns, and when a single person fires at them, they all run like rabbits, and cause the police to waste time trying to figure out if they are the shooters.

They did exactly what they should have done - retreat and protect themselves and let the police take care of the situation as they are not vigilantes.


The only reason that you are upset is because all those bullshit scenarios that would help your gun control argument simply did not happen.

The Orlando shooter tried to buy bulletproof armor from a gun dealer who routinely sold such items to the police. The gun dealer refused to sell, because he figured something was up. he did not report the shooter to the FBI, because he did not even have his name, since no background check was run. What this dealer did, because he was a responsible citizen, should be codified into law, because too many people would have simply said, 'Well, I don't know what he wants with this stuff, but it is not illegal, so, it is not my problem". I would remind you that john Hinckley has been released, and it is not against the law for me to sell him anything he wants, since i am not a licensed gun dealer.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

First of all you ignoramus, no one has to defend their reasoning for wanting a 100 round magazine. They only have to defend themselves if they commit a crime with such.

Second of all, no serious gun person is going to use a 100 round magazine. They are unwieldy and anyone knows that the larger the magazine the more likely a jam will occur.

Even in a fully automatic weapon such as my M16A1, a 30 rounder is all you want because well they jam up too often as it is, and a sustained 30 round burst will heat a barrel like crazy and the time taken to reload allows some of that heat to bleed off.

Yet, it is perfectly legal to order it from Bud's Gun Shop, and when the 2016 version of Oswald orders it, and uses it the next presidential appearance, everyone will say, "Who could have known?"

 

[2aguy]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

How many rounds should a person be allowed to defend their family with?

I enjoy it when anti gunners put ammunition limits on normal, law abiding people. It would be the same thing as telling the fire department that they have to determine before hand, how much water it takes to put out a fire...and then they can only use that much and no more......

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

First of all you ignoramus, no one has to defend their reasoning for wanting a 100 round magazine. They only have to defend themselves if they commit a crime with such.

Second of all, no serious gun person is going to use a 100 round magazine. They are unwieldy and anyone knows that the larger the magazine the more likely a jam will occur.

Even in a fully automatic weapon such as my M16A1, a 30 rounder is all you want because well they jam up too often as it is, and a sustained 30 round burst will heat a barrel like crazy and the time taken to reload allows some of that heat to bleed off.

Yet, it is perfectly legal to order it from Bud's Gun Shop, and when the 2016 version of Oswald orders it, and uses it the next presidential appearance, everyone will say, "Who could have known?"

And yet , it is NOT legal to use a gun so equipped to murder people. DO YOU GET THAT?

 

[2aguy]

my statements are true. but please go with the NRA party line.

The “Good Guy With a Gun” Is a Myth

my problem is not with guns, per se. it's with people who shouldn't have guns getting them

There were about 20 good guys with guns in Dallas. They ran like rabbits when the shooting started.

You complain that if guns are in an area the people carrying them will carelessly fire them killing innocents and harming the ability for the police to respond. Then, as this scenario essentially never seems to happen, you complain that they are running away.

You need to make up your mind.

Naw, I'll just stick with what happened in Dallas. About twenty Rambo wannabees march down the street with long guns, and when a single person fires at them, they all run like rabbits, and cause the police to waste time trying to figure out if they are the shooters.

They did exactly what they should have done - retreat and protect themselves and let the police take care of the situation as they are not vigilantes.


The only reason that you are upset is because all those bullshit scenarios that would help your gun control argument simply did not happen.

The Orlando shooter tried to buy bulletproof armor from a gun dealer who routinely sold such items to the police. The gun dealer refused to sell, because he figured something was up. he did not report the shooter to the FBI, because he did not even have his name, since no background check was run. What this dealer did, because he was a responsible citizen, should be codified into law, because too many people would have simply said, 'Well, I don't know what he wants with this stuff, but it is not illegal, so, it is not my problem". I would remind you that john Hinckley has been released, and it is not against the law for me to sell him anything he wants, since i am not a licensed gun dealer.

No.......gun dealers do this all the time.........I know gun store people and they refuse to sell guns to people all the time....this is not an unusual occurrence....

If you know he is John Hinkley you can't sell to him....and since criminals and mass shooters already get around federal background checks at gun stores using straw buyers, he could simply have a relative buy a gun from a gun store or from you as a private seller even if you insisted on a background check...........

Background checks do not stop criminals....

The only reason anti gun activists want them is to get gun registration, which is what they will say they need next to make universal background check work........

And genius.....you can get as many background checks as you want........no one is stopping you.

 

[2aguy]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

It's not up to you to tell other people what they need

I disagree. You not only do not need a 100 round magazine, you don't need a grenade, or a mortar, for self defence, or any other reason.

And how often are 100 round drums used in any sort of crime genius...?

knives kill over 1,500 people just about every single year....are they used to kill at least that many people a year?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

It's not up to you to tell other people what they need

I disagree. You not only do not need a 100 round magazine, you don't need a grenade, or a mortar, for self defence, or any other reason.

A grenade or a mortar is not a self defense weapon

 

[Skull Pilot]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

How many rounds should a person be allowed to defend their family with?

I'm guess that if you need 100 rounds, you would spend your money more effectively investing in a pair of glasses that 100 bullets.

WHat do you care if a person has a 100 round magazine?

How on earth does that mean one Iota of diddlyshit to your life?

 

[320 Years of History]

you're more likely to have a gun taken from you than use it to defend your family.

This is a lie.

and you're certainly statistically more likely to shoot a family member or friend or have one of them shoot themselves or you.

This is also a lie.

my statements are true. but please go with the NRA party line.

The “Good Guy With a Gun” Is a Myth

my problem is not with guns, per se. it's with people who shouldn't have guns getting them

The argument you are using in bunk.

No CCW holder is obligated in anyway to draw his weapon to stop a criminal.

Quite frankly unless my or my wife's life is in jeopardy I will not draw my weapon and that is how it should be.

IMO if you're getting mugged or assaulted and you have chosen not to arm yourself and to let the police protect you then if my or my wife's life is not in danger I will call the cops for you and hope you don't get killed or permanently maimed before they show up.

See that's me respecting your choice. All you have to do is respect mine

Wow. Some of that is right in every way. Some of it is acceptable if not unequivocally virtuous. Some of it is ethically tolerable more so than acceptable. Some of it is ineffably turpitudinous morally. I don't often see such a spectrum of expressions from one person in so few words. Indeed, I can't honestly say I've seen that before.

I see nothing turpitudinous about my stance.

I have no moral, legal or ethical obligation to come to anyone's defense.

I have absolutely no right to tell other people what to do which also means I respect their personal choices.

If a person chooses to go unarmed then he is choosing to either rely on his martial arts skills or the police to come to his aid if his safety or life is ever threatened by a criminal.

If that person saw me getting assaulted all they could do is call the cops so why should I do more for them they they are willing to do for themselves or anyone else?

Red:
That's obvious. Not for any particular reason other than that by dint of the benefit of the doubt alone I presume you, or any other individual, aren't so depraved that you would willfully espouse ideas or perform acts that you recognize as being worthy of disdain. My presumption to that effect won't survive one's displaying unequivocal evidence that it's not deserved, but prior to that happening, I will accord anyone the favor due them, if for no other reason, existential uncertainty.

Blue:
One of the classic moral problems is the issue of whether or not we have moral obligations to people we do not know. If we do have such obligations, then there are also questions about the foundation, nature and extent of these obligations. If we do not have such obligations, then there is the obvious question about why there are no such obligations. I will start by considering some stock arguments regarding our obligations to others.

One approach to the matter of moral obligations to others is to ground them on religion. This requires two main steps. The first is establishing that the religion imposes such obligations. The second is making the transition from the realm of religion to the domain of ethics.

Many religions do impose such obligations on their followers. For example, John 15:12 conveys God’s command: “This is my commandment, That you love one another, as I have loved you.” If love involves obligations (which it seems to), then this would certainly seem to place us under these obligations. Other faiths also include injunctions to assist others.

In terms of transitioning from religion to ethics, one easy way is to appeal to divine command theory—the moral theory that what God commands is right because He commands it. This does raise the classic Euthyphro problem: is something good because God commands it, or is it commanded because it is good? If the former, goodness seems arbitrary. If the latter, then morality would be independent of God and divine command theory would be false.

Using religion as the basis for moral obligation is also problematic because doing so would require proving that the religion is correct—this would be no easy task. There is also the practical problem that people differ in their faiths and this would make a universal grounding for moral obligations difficult.

Another approach is to argue for moral obligations by using the moral method of reversing the situation. This method is based on the Golden Rule (“do unto others as you would have them do unto you”) and the basic idea is that consistency requires that a person treat others as she would wish to be treated.

To make the method work, a person would need to want others to act as if they had obligations to her and this would thus obligate the person to act as if she had obligations to them. For example, if I would want someone to help me if I were struck by a car and bleeding out in the street, then consistency would require that I accept the same obligation on my part. That is, if I accept that I should be helped, then consistency requires that I must accept I should help others.

This approach is somewhat like that taken by Immanuel Kant. He argues that because a person necessarily regards herself as an end (and not just a means to an end), then she must also regard others as ends and not merely as means. He endeavors to use this to argue in favor of various obligations and duties, such as helping others in need.

There are, unfortunately, at least two counters to this sort of approach. The first is that it is easy enough to imagine a person who is willing to forgo the assistance of others and as such can consistently refuse to accept obligations to others. So, for example, a person might be willing to starve rather than accept assistance from other people. While such people might seem a bit crazy, if they are sincere then they cannot be accused of inconsistency.

The second is that a person can argue that there is a relevant difference between himself and others that would justify their obligations to him while freeing him from obligations to them. For example, a person of a high social or economic class might assert that her status obligates people of lesser classes while freeing her from any obligations to them. Naturally, the person must provide reasons in support of this alleged relevant difference.

A third approach is to present a utilitarian argument. For a utilitarian, like John Stuart Mill, morality is assessed in terms of consequences: the correct action is the one that creates the greatest utility (typically happiness) for the greatest number. A utilitarian argument for obligations to people we do not know would be rather straightforward. The first step would be to estimate the utility generated by accepting a specific obligation to people we do not know, such as rendering aid to an intoxicated person who is about to become the victim of sexual assault. The second step is to estimate the disutility generated by imposing that specific obligation. The third step is to weigh the utility against the disutility. If the utility is greater, then such an obligation should be imposed. If the disutility is greater, then it should not.

This approach, obviously enough, rests on the acceptance of utilitarianism. There are numerous arguments against this moral theory and these can be employed against attempts to ground obligations on utility. Even for those who accept utilitarianism, there is the open possibility that there will always be greater utility in not imposing obligations, thus undermining the claim that we have obligations to others.

A fourth approach is to consider the matter in terms of rational self-interest and operate from the assumption that people should act in their self-interest. In terms of a moral theory, this would be ethical egoism: the moral theory that a person should act in her self-interest rather than acting in an altruistic manner.

While accepting that others have obligations to me would certainly be in my self-interest, it initially appears that accepting obligations to others would be contrary to my self-interest. That is, I would be best served if others did unto me as I would like to be done unto, but I was free to do unto them as I wished. If I could get away with this sort of thing, it would be ideal (assuming that I am selfish). However, as a matter of fact people tend to notice and respond negatively to a lack of reciprocation. So, if having others accept that they have some obligations to me were in my self-interest, then it would seem that it would be in my self-interest to pay the price for such obligations by accepting obligations to them.

For those who like evolutionary just-so stories in the context of providing foundations for ethics, the tale is easy to tell: those who accept obligations to others would be more successful than those who do not.

The stock counter to the self-interest argument is the problem of Glaucon’s unjust man and Hume’s sensible knave. While it certainly seems rational to accept obligations to others in return for getting them to accept similar obligations, it seems preferable to exploit their acceptance of obligations while avoiding one’s supposed obligations to others whenever possible. Assuming that a person should act in accord with self-interest, then this is what a person should do.

It can be argued that this approach would be self-defeating: if people exploited others without reciprocation, the system of obligations would eventually fall apart. As such, each person has an interest in ensuring that others hold to their obligations. Humans do, in fact, seem to act this way—those who fail in their obligations often get a bad reputation and are distrusted. From a purely practical standpoint, acting as if one has obligations to others would thus seem to be in a person’s self-interest because the benefits would generally outweigh the costs.

The counter to this is that each person still has an interest in avoiding the cost of fulfilling obligations and there are various practical ways to do this by the use of deceit, power and such. As such, a classic moral question arises once again: why act on your alleged obligations if you can get away with not doing so? Aside from the practical reply given above, there seems to be no answer from self-interest.

A fifth option is to look at obligations to others as a matter of debts. A person is born into an established human civilization built on thousands of years of human effort. Since each person arrives as a helpless infant, each person’s survival is dependent on others. As the person grows up, she also depends on the efforts of countless other people she does not know. These include soldiers that defend her society, the people who maintain the infrastructure, firefighters who keep fire from sweeping away the town or city, the taxpayers who pay for all this, and so on for all the many others who make human civilization possible. As such, each member of civilization owes a considerable debt to those who have come before and those who are here now.

If debt imposes an obligation, then each person who did not arise ex-nihilo owes a debt to those who have made and continue to make their survival and existence in society possible. At the very least, the person is obligated to make contributions to continue human civilization as a repayment to these others.

One objection to this is for a person to claim that she owes no such debt because her special status obligates others to provide all this for her with nothing owed in return. The obvious challenge is for a person to prove such an exalted status.

Another objection is for a person to claim that all this is a gift that requires no repayment on the part of anyone and hence does not impose any obligation. The challenge is, of course, to prove this implausible claim.

A final option I will consider is that offered by virtue theory. Virtue theory, famously presented by thinkers like Aristotle and Confucius, holds that people should develop their virtues. These classic virtues include generosity, loyalty and other virtues that involve obligations and duties to others. Confucius explicitly argued in favor of duties and obligations as being key components of virtues.

In terms of why a person should have such virtues and accept such obligations, the standard answer is that being virtuous will make a person happy. Virtue theory is not without its detractors and the criticism of the theory can be employed to undercut it, thus undermining its role in arguing that we have obligations to people we do not know.


By all means, respect another's choice not to own a firearm; however do not misconstrue that, by inapt conflation, as being a willful choice to have their well being compromised by a gun wielding other. Surely, for example, you don't think that conscientious objectors actively choose to prefer to have their homeland invaded by another sovereign power.


When you have some time, I suggest reading the following:

• Kant's Moral Philosophy (the whole chapter, including the "sublinks" -- there is a higher level summary here, but I suspect the more detailed variant is better suited to your situation)
  
• Special Obligations (the whole chapter, including the "sublinks")
  
• MORAL OBLIGATIONS TO DISTANT OTHERS
• A RIGHT/DUTY PERSPECTIVE ON THE LEGAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL FOUNDATIONS OF THE NO-DUTY-TO-RESCUE RULE
  
• Three Duties to Rescue: Moral, Civil, and Criminal
  
• The Extension and Limits of the Duty to Rescue

The context of your ideas is that your using your personal ranged weapon, a gun, to aid (or not) someone else who is in imminent danger, that can be averted by your using your gun to aid the other individual. After reading the ideas expressed at the links above, if not the essay in this post, I would hope that you come to understand the depravity of your refraining from delivering that mode of assistance.

 

[Hiryuu]

I'm guess that if you need 100 rounds, you would spend your money more effectively investing in a pair of glasses that 100 bullets.

I didn't ask you what you thought about what anyone else has or needs. I asked you how many round would be appropriate in your opinion to defend your family. Now if you cannot understand the question, or are incapable of answering with anything definitive, then just say so.

 

[Hiryuu]

Well, if you need a 100 round magazine to protect your home, I hope that I am never on the gun range when you show up to practice.

How many rounds should a person be allowed to defend their family with?

I enjoy it when anti gunners put ammunition limits on normal, law abiding people. It would be the same thing as telling the fire department that they have to determine before hand, how much water it takes to put out a fire...and then they can only use that much and no more......

Well, I don't think what Vandalsahandle stated was meant to be much more than glib response. It would be nice if Vandalshandle could at least put something out there that was worth listening to. I still have my fingers crossed, because you cannot debate someone who offers nothing within reason to debate. Perhaps I set my expectation for this Zone a little too high, my bad.