America, The Stupid

[Oddball]

The increasing need (which, although lacks supporting evidence, I'll agree with) for college freshman to take remedial classes is not necessarily a function of poor preparation. It could also be because in the past, every ding-dong that thought they should go to college was not given a government low-interest loan.

The recent increased need for remedial courses for college freshmen is now almost as common knowledge that the sun rises in the east. But, since you asked, here's one source:
Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college - Chicago Sun-Times

That every ding-dong who can get a loan is being admitted to college speaks more to the people taking the money than those spending it.

Like most issues in education, the topic of students' needing remedial college classes is not as simple as some might assume....

Right...It's all complicated and stuff, so we need the same people who've been fucking up the system for at least the last 50 years to fix it.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The recent increased need for remedial courses for college freshmen is now almost as common knowledge that the sun rises in the east. But, since you asked, here's one source:
Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college - Chicago Sun-Times

That every ding-dong who can get a loan is being admitted to college speaks more to the people taking the money than those spending it.

Like most issues in education, the topic of students' needing remedial college classes is not as simple as some might assume....

Right...It's all complicated and stuff, so we need the same people who've been fucking up the system for at least the last 50 years to fix it.

yes, in reality American kids score the highest on international tests, the liberal status quo is what we should protect most, and under no circumstances should a school or business be able to fire someone just because they are failing at their job !!

Statement of Pascal D. Forgione, Jr., Ph.D.,
U.S. Commissioner of Education Statistics
National Center for Education Statistics (NCES)

Today feels like graduation day for all of us who have spent the last few years working on the TIMSS study. The results of schooling in America are now in. Our most significant finding is that U.S. 12th grade students do not do well. When our graduating seniors are compared to the students graduating secondary school in other countries, our students rank near the bottom. This holds true in both science and math, and for both our typical and our top-level students.
How do we know this? Our 12th graders along with students in their last year of school in more than 20 countries were tested in 1995 as part of the Third International Mathematics and Science Study, better known as TIMSS. The results are included in this report, Pursuing Excellence: A Study of U.S. Twelfth-Grade Mathematics and Science Achievement in International Context. This is the third report from the study. Previous reports covered international comparisons of 4th graders and 8th graders.

In sheer quantitative terms, TIMSS is the world's largest, most comprehensive, and most rigorous international education comparison ever.

 

[initforme]

What all of you have purposely forgotten is where the blame really lies, with the parents. Dumb kids come from Dumb parents. top that off with america is a country that really doesnt believe that much in education. In the US eachers are looked upon as "indoctrinators" and "overpaid" and dont deserve what they earn. What do you expect? Secondly, you cant build a well working machine with DEFECTIVE parts. If my kid struggles in school, I have to look no further than in the mirror to discover the problem. And that folks is purely inarguable.

 

[Oddball]

What all of you have purposely forgotten is where the blame really lies, with the parents. Dumb kids come from Dumb parents. top that off with america is a country that really doesnt believe that much in education. In the US eachers are looked upon as "indoctrinators" and "overpaid" and dont deserve what they earn. What do you expect? Secondly, you cant build a well working machine with DEFECTIVE parts. If my kid struggles in school, I have to look no further than in the mirror to discover the problem. And that folks is purely inarguable.

Sure...Blame the customer.

American kids are forcibly (in many cases) institutionalized for 13+ years, with the parents completely insulated from any financial burden for the "service" received, and it's all their fault.

Dickweed.

BTW, nice spelling, structure and syntax...You must've been educated in a gubmint school...

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

What all of you have purposely forgotten is where the blame really lies, with the parents.

too stupid!! If schools have to succeed despite parents that is what they have to do. THere are many great examples in Harlem for example. The only issue is the resistence faced from liberal unions that want to protect the failed status quo.

Get it now??

See "Waiting for Superman" if you want to see what charter voucher schools can do even in the ghetto and if you want to see how many ghetto parents desperately want their kids to succeed.

 

[initforme]

"Sure...Blame the customer.

American kids are forcibly (in many cases) institutionalized for 13+ years, with the parents completely insulated from any financial burden for the "service" received, and it's all their fault.

Dickweed.

I do in fact blame the customer because when you take a step back and look at america and the ugly nasty rotten rat race it is you see how messed up our culture is. Call it liberalism, call it whatever but we worship violence, sex, money, greed, and top that off with the fact that many kids come from broken homes you have what you have, a mess. If you dont like it then its on YOU. Quit your job and teach your own kid. I wouldnt be a teacher at those wages to put up with the ilk of the country. Why anyone does I really dont know.

 

[initforme]

I rank waiting with superman with Michael Moore productions. Just dont buy into them, AT ALL.

 

[Annika55]

Like most issues in education, the topic of students' needing remedial college classes is not as simple as some might assume....

Right...It's all complicated and stuff, so we need the same people who've been fucking up the system for at least the last 50 years to fix it.

yes, in reality American kids score the highest on international tests, the liberal status quo is what we should protect most, and under no circumstances should a school or business be able to fire someone just because they are failing at their job !!

Statement of Pascal D. Forgione, Jr., Ph.D.,
U.S. Commissioner of Education Statistics
National Center for Education Statistics (NCES)

Today feels like graduation day for all of us who have spent the last few years working on the TIMSS study. The results of schooling in America are now in. Our most significant finding is that U.S. 12th grade students do not do well. When our graduating seniors are compared to the students graduating
secondary school in other countries, our students rank near the bottom. This holds true in both science and math, and for both our typical and our top-level students.
How do we know this? Our 12th graders along with students in their last year of school in more than 20 countries were tested in 1995 as part of the Third International Mathematics and Science Study, better known as TIMSS. The results are included in this report, Pursuing Excellence: A Study of U.S. Twelfth-Grade Mathematics and Science Achievement in International Context. This is the third report from the study. Previous reports covered international comparisons of 4th graders and 8th graders.
In sheer quantitative terms, TIMSS is the world's largest, most comprehensive, and most rigorous international education comparison ever.

I am glad you find the TIMSS an excellent measure for comparing US students to their global peers because you can examine real data from the 2011 tests.

Apparently, in 1995 US students didnt fare well. In fact, US students were at the bottom of international testing when comparisons began in 1960's. Fortunately, great progress has been made.

The grades of US twelfth graders in 1995 are not comparable to international scores because most Asian and European schools divide their students into TWO tracks when they start HS. About half the students go into a vocational/technical track and the top students go into an academic track. The US includes ALL its students in the testing program. In comparison to other countries, the US curriculum has emphasized creative problem solving. While you may find that amusing, it explains why the US is at the forefront in new product and technology innovations. Some Asian countries are trying to incorporate American educational programs into their systems which tend to develop conformity and convergent thinking.

The more recent TIMSS scores show the progress US have made since 1995.

"Exclusive! Pasi Sahlberg on TIMSS and PIRLS (Guest Post by Pasi Sahlberg) | National Education Policy Center

"This week educators around the world got a new opportunity to benchmark their students’ performance to their international competitors when The International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement (IEA) released the results of TIMSS (Trends in Mathematics and Science Study) mathematics and science of 63 countries and PIRLS (Progress in Reading Literacy Study) in 48 countries. The United States took part in both of these studies that tested how well 4th grade children can read and what 4th and 8th grade students know about mathematics and science in school.
...But a glance at participating countries’ national averages reveals some interesting aspects of American students performance in the 2011 TIMSS and PIRLS studies. 4th grade Americans scored high in science and reading and a bit lower in mathematics (7th, 6th and 11th respectively). Ahead were only East Asian countries (South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and Japan) and Finland.*
American 4th graders did better than most of their European peers in all tested areas."

"In 2011, the average mathematics score of U.S. 4th-graders (541) was higher than the international TIMSS scale average, which is set at 500.

"At grade 4, the United States was among the top 15 education systems in mathematics (8 education systems had higher averages (including *N. Carolina which was scored as a country) and 6 were not measurably different) and (the US) scored higher, on average, than 42 education systems.

The 8 education systems with average mathematics scores above the U.S. score were Singapore, Korea, Hong Kong-CHN, Chinese Taipei-CHN, Japan, Northern Ireland-GBR, North Carolina-USA, and Belgium (Flemish)-BEL."

"The percentage of 4th-graders performing at or above the Advanced international mathematics benchmark in 2011 was higher than in the United States in 7 education systems, was not different in 4 education systems, and was lower than in the United States in 45 education systems."

"Eighth grade American students also did well, hitting 9th in mathematics and 10th in science. Here again, before the U.S. came East Asians, Finns and, perhaps against the odds, Russians.*

"Another interesting revelation in TIMSS 2011 is amazingly high performance of some U.S. states that took part in that study as ‘countries’. For example, 4th grade pupils in Florida performed above Canadian provinces of Alberta, Ontario and Quebec in reading, science and mathematics and were on par with Finland, except in science.*

Furthermore, 8th grade students in Massachusetts, Minnesota and Colorado were better than high performing Hong Kong in science. If Massachusetts, Minnesota, North Carolina, Indiana and Colorado were countries, they would all fit into top ten in 8th grade mathematics."

"At grade 8, the United States was among the top 24 education systems in mathematics (11 education systems had higher averages*
( included in the 11 higher averages are the scores from the states of Massachusetts, Minnesota, N. Carolina, and Indiana) and 12 were not measurably different) and scored higher, on average, than 32 education systems.
The 11 education systems with average mathematics scores above the U.S. score were Korea, Singapore, Chinese Taipei, Hong Kong-CHN, Japan, Massachusetts-USA, Minnesota-USA, the Russian Federation, North Carolina-USA, Quebec-CAN, and Indiana-USA."

American students scores are not at the top, but there has been improvement.
If you believe our students are doing more poorly now, you will probably be interested in these specific TIMSS scores over time:

"Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) - Mathematics Achievement of Fourth- and Eighth-Graders in 2011

"Compared with 1995, the U.S. average mathematics score at grade 4 was 23 score points higher in 2011 (541 v. 518)."

"Compared with 2007, the U.S. average mathematics score at grade 4 was 12 score points higher in 2011 (541 v. 529)."

8th Grade
"Compared with 1995, the U.S. average mathematics score at grade 8 was 17 score points higher in 2011 (509 v. 492)."

"There was no measurable difference between the U.S. average mathematics score at grade 8 in 2007 (508) and in 2011 (509)."

Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) - Mathematics Achievement of Fourth- and Eighth-Graders in 2011

 

[Oddball]

I do in fact blame the customer because when you take a step back and look at america and the ugly nasty rotten rat race it is you see how messed up our culture is. Call it liberalism, call it whatever but we worship violence, sex, money, greed, and top that off with the fact that many kids come from broken homes you have what you have, a mess. If you dont like it then its on YOU. Quit your job and teach your own kid. I wouldnt be a teacher at those wages to put up with the ilk of the country. Why anyone does I really dont know.

A lot of people have taken to educating their own kids (ever heard of home schooling?)...Only to then be run into the ground by hand wringing, blame-the-customer, illiterate, we're-all-victims-of-society dickweeds like you.

Grow the hell up.

 

[Annika55]

What all of you have purposely forgotten is where the blame really lies, with the parents.

too stupid!! If schools have to succeed despite parents that is what they have to do. THere are many great examples in Harlem for example. The only issue is the resistence faced from liberal unions that want to protect the failed status quo.

Get it now??

See "Waiting for Superman" if you want to see what charter voucher schools can do even in the ghetto and if you want to see how many ghetto parents desperately want their kids to succeed.

A Review of WAITING FOR SUPERMAN
The Myth of Charter Schools by Diane Ravitch | The New York Review of Books

"Some fact-checking is in order, and the place to start is with the film’s quiet acknowledgment that only one in five charter schools is able to get the “amazing results” that it celebrates. Nothing more is said about this astonishing statistic. It is drawn from a national study of charter schools by Stanford economist Margaret Raymond (the wife of Hanushek). Known as the CREDO study, it evaluated student progress on math tests in half the nation’s five thousand charter schools and concluded that 17 percent were superior to a matched traditional public school; 37 percent were worse than the public school; and the remaining 46 percent had academic gains no different from that of a similar public school. The proportion of charters that get amazing results is far smaller than 17 percent.Why did Davis Guggenheim pay no attention to the charter schools that are run by incompetent leaders or corporations mainly concerned to make money? Why propound to an unknowing public the myth that charter schools are the answer to our educational woes, when the filmmaker knows that there are twice as many failing charters as there are successful ones? Why not give an honest accounting?
The propagandistic nature of Waiting for “Superman” is revealed by Guggenheim’s complete indifference to the wide variation among charter schools. There are excellent charter schools, just as there are excellent public schools. Why did he not also inquire into the charter chains that are mired in unsavory real estate deals, or take his camera to the charters where most students are getting lower scores than those in the neighborhood public schools? Why did he not report on the charter principals who have been indicted for embezzlement, or the charters that blur the line between church and state? Why did he not look into the charter schools whose leaders are paid $300,000–$400,000 a year to oversee small numbers of schools and students?

Guggenheim seems to believe that teachers alone can overcome the effects of student poverty, even though there are countless studies that demonstrate the link between income and test scores. He shows us footage of the pilot Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier, to the amazement of people who said it couldn’t be done. Since Yeager broke the sound barrier, we should be prepared to believe that able teachers are all it takes to overcome the disadvantages of poverty, homelessness, joblessness, poor nutrition, absent parents, etc.
The movie asserts a central thesis in today’s school reform discussion: the idea that teachers are the most important factor determining student achievement. But this proposition is false. Hanushek has released studies showing that teacher quality accounts for about 7.5–10 percent of student test score gains. Several other high-quality analyses echo this finding, and while estimates vary a bit, there is a relative consensus: teachers statistically account for around 10–20 percent of achievement outcomes. Teachers are the most important factor within schools.

But the same body of research shows that nonschool factors matter even more than teachers. According to University of Washington economist Dan Goldhaber, about 60 percent of achievement is explained by nonschool factors, such as family income. So while teachers are the most important factor within schools, their effects pale in comparison with those of students’ backgrounds, families, and other factors beyond the control of schools and teachers. Teachers can have a profound effect on students, but it would be foolish to believe that teachers alone can undo the damage caused by poverty and its associated burdens....
Guggenheim didn’t bother to take a close look at the heroes of his documentary. Geoffrey Canada is justly celebrated for the creation of the Harlem Children’s Zone, which not only runs two charter schools but surrounds children and their families with a broad array of social and medical services. Canada has a board of wealthy philanthropists and a very successful fund-raising apparatus. With assets of more than $200 million, his organization has no shortage of funds. Canada himself is currently paid $400,000 annually. For Guggenheim to praise Canada while also claiming that public schools don’t need any more money is bizarre. Canada’s charter schools get better results than nearby public schools serving impoverished students. If all inner-city schools had the same resources as his, they might get the same good results.

But contrary to the myth that Guggenheim propounds about “amazing results,” even Geoffrey Canada’s schools have many students who are not proficient. On the 2010 state tests, 60 percent of the fourth-grade students in one of his charter schools were not proficient in reading, nor were 50 percent in the other. It should be noted—and Guggenheim didn’t note it—that Canada kicked out his entire first class of middle school students when they didn’t get good enough test scores to satisfy his board of trustees. This sad event was documented by Paul Tough in his laudatory account of Canada’s Harlem Children’s Zone, Whatever It Takes (2009). Contrary to Guggenheim’s mythology, even the best-funded charters, with the finest services, can’t completely negate the effects of poverty.

Guggenheim ignored other clues that might have gotten in the way of a good story. While blasting the teachers’ unions, he points to Finland as a nation whose educational system the US should emulate, not bothering to explain that it has a completely unionized teaching force. His documentary showers praise on testing and accountability, yet he does not acknowledge that Finland seldom tests its students. Any Finnish educator will say that Finland improved its public education system not by privatizing its schools or constantly testing its students, but by investing in the preparation, support, and retention of excellent teachers. It achieved its present eminence not by systematically firing 5–10 percent of its teachers, but by patiently building for the future. Finland has a national curriculum, which is not restricted to the basic skills of reading and math, but includes the arts, sciences, history, foreign languages, and other subjects that are essential to a good, rounded education. Finland also strengthened its social welfare programs for children and families. Guggenheim simply ignores the realities of the Finnish system."

 

[initforme]

"?)...Only to then be run into the ground by hand wringing, blame-the-customer, illiterate, we're-all-victims-of-society dickweeds like you."

Whose running you into the ground? I'm not saying its a bad thing. You can either whine about it or homeschool your own kid. Facts are its really hard to fix kids that are all messed up because of their home lives. If you cant see this then thats fine. Thank goodness not everyone sees the world through one set of eyes. My kids had a great education in a small rural public school. They all went on to get college degrees and have good jobs...I cant complain. Their teachers were top notch. As far as illiterate, far from it. Got my college degree. Its the one thing that helped enable me not to have to work for slave wages for some dingy little business. To heck with that.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I rank waiting with superman with Michael Moore productions. Just dont buy into them, AT ALL.

charter/voucher/private schools and teachers exist only to the extent they succeed, much like capitalist businesses.

Therefore, they are superior to soviet liberal government monopoly schools.

A child can understand this, just not a liberal.

 

[initforme]

I'm fine with vouchers, charters, etc. The one stipulation that is a MUST is that if a problem, disruptive student applies to those schools
1) they must be accepted
2) they cannot be removed from the educational setting if they create a disturbance to the learning environment

after that, I'm in full support

 

[Oddball]

I'm fine with vouchers, charters, etc. The one stipulation that is a MUST is that if a problem, disruptive student applies to those schools
1) they must be accepted
2) they cannot be removed from the educational setting if they create a disturbance to the learning environment

after that, I'm in full support

Fuck that shit.

Disruptive punks go to military school or juvie.

Schools aren't behavioral rehab centers for sociopaths.

 

[initforme]

"Fuck that shit.

Disruptive punks go to military school or juvie.

Schools aren't behavioral rehab centers for sociopaths. "

thanks. You just showed where public schools are. Right now where my daughter teaches she HAS to work with those types of kids who basically dont care one iota about giving an ounce of effort toward loearning. Yet she is working her butt off to try and find ways to help them succeed. Some here believe its her fault. Yeah, sure. Thats hilarious. Jerks.
__________________

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I'm fine with vouchers, charters, etc. The one stipulation that is a MUST is that if a problem, disruptive student applies to those schools
1) they must be accepted
2) they cannot be removed from the educational setting if they create a disturbance to the learning environment

after that, I'm in full support

too stupid!! Obviously you want all in a class on the same level to the extend possible to acheive any sort of efficiency. Kids that don't fit in must be removed and put where they do fit in. THere is no objection to an entire charter school for such kids!

 

[Annika55]

The recent increased need for remedial courses for college freshmen is now almost as common knowledge that the sun rises in the east. But, since you asked, here's one source:
Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college - Chicago Sun-Times

That every ding-dong who can get a loan is being admitted to college speaks more to the people taking the money than those spending it.

Like most issues in education, the topic of students' needing remedial college classes is not as simple as some might assume....

Right...It's all complicated and stuff, so we need the same people who've been fucking up the system for at least the last 50 years to fix it.

Of course it is complicated. The situation in Detroit is a perfect example to examine. Detroit students' performance is appalling.
Adjacent to Detroit are the affluent Grosse Pointes. Their students have the same liberal teachers who are also members of unions. But Grosse Pointe N. students score at the top on all measures. The same is true for many affluent, suburban students in districts within 20 miles of Detroit like Bloomfield Hills, Birmingham and Troy where the students are exceptional performers and over 90% go on to good colleges. Their teachers have training and education similar to Detroit teachers and they also belong to unions.

It seems ridiculous to blame teachers or unions for Detroit school failures unless total credit is given to the teachers and unions where student achievement is consistently outstanding.
On the other hand, Inkster, and Romulus districts are almost as bad as Detroit. Their schools happen to serve poor, minority students. The same situations exist when comparing affluent suburban and nearby inner city schools around the nation. Students in the affluent schools perform at the top while their impoverished urban counterparts struggle. There is a
similar chasm when comparing economically disadvantaged rural students with more financially secure groups.*
Teachers simply cannot overcome economic, environmental, familial, and cultural barriers to education.
Many inner city HS teachers see over 150 students a day. A teacher can't protect students from crime and violence in the community. A teacher can't keep students home at night. A teacher can't protect students from the threats and recruiting of local gangs. A teacher can't prevent students from abusing drugs and alcohol or protect students from peer pressure. A teacher can't provide a safe, quiet place to study. A teacher can't provide school supplies, books, magazines, and the latest technology for every student. A teacher can't monitor whether or not students do assignments and study. A teacher can't
prevents students from moving and attending different schools every few months. A teacher can't provide students with time to do schoolwork when their time is spent working or caring for siblings. A teacher can't make sure every student has nutritious food to eat. A teacher can't be responsible for students who only attend school sporadically. A teacher can't protect students from parental absence, neglect or abuse. A teacher isn't responsibles for teens who become pregnant. A teacher can't take all of her students to plays, museums, art galleries, and the ballet.
Yes, education problem ARE complex, and, unfortunately, teachers did not create nor can they solve the problems associated with poverty.
I wish charter schools were the answer. But when 5000 schools were matched in the CREDO research, "17 percent had
students who did better on the whole than their public school twins, in 37 percent they did worse, and in 46 percent there was no statistical difference."
A new look at the CREDO charter school study - The Answer Sheet - The Washington Post
The Rand studies on charter schools similarly concluded,
"in a majority of cases, the gains of students attending charter schools are small or non-existent. In these cases the gains of students attending charter schools are on par with the gains these same students experienced in TPS's
(traditional public schools)."
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2009/RAND_MG869.pdf

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Like most issues in education, the topic of students' needing remedial college classes is not as simple as some might assume....

Right...It's all complicated and stuff, so we need the same people who've been fucking up the system for at least the last 50 years to fix it.

Of course it is complicated. The situation in Detroit is a perfect example to examine. Detroit students' performance is appalling.
Adjacent to Detroit are the affluent Grosse Pointes. Their students have the same liberal teachers who are also members of unions. But Grosse Pointe N. students score at the top on all measures. The same is true for many affluent, suburban students in districts within 20 miles of Detroit like Bloomfield Hills, Birmingham and Troy where the students are exceptional performers and over 90% go on to good colleges. Their teachers have training and education similar to Detroit teachers and they also belong to unions.

It seems ridiculous to blame teachers or unions for Detroit school failures unless total credit is given to the teachers and unions where student achievement is consistently outstanding.
On the other hand, Inkster, and Romulus districts are almost as bad as Detroit. Their schools happen to serve poor, minority students. The same situations exist when comparing affluent suburban and nearby inner city schools around the nation. Students in the affluent schools perform at the top while their impoverished urban counterparts struggle. There is a
similar chasm when comparing economically disadvantaged rural students with more financially secure groups.*
Teachers simply cannot overcome economic, environmental, familial, and cultural barriers to education.
Many inner city HS teachers see over 150 students a day. A teacher can't protect students from crime and violence in the community. A teacher can't keep students home at night. A teacher can't protect students from the threats and recruiting of local gangs. A teacher can't prevent students from abusing drugs and alcohol or protect students from peer pressure. A teacher can't provide a safe, quiet place to study. A teacher can't provide school supplies, books, magazines, and the latest technology for every student. A teacher can't monitor whether or not students do assignments and study. A teacher can't
prevents students from moving and attending different schools every few months. A teacher can't provide students with time to do schoolwork when their time is spent working or caring for siblings. A teacher can't make sure every student has nutritious food to eat. A teacher can't be responsible for students who only attend school sporadically. A teacher can't protect students from parental absence, neglect or abuse. A teacher isn't responsibles for teens who become pregnant. A teacher can't take all of her students to plays, museums, art galleries, and the ballet.
Yes, education problem ARE complex, and, unfortunately, teachers did not create nor can they solve the problems associated with poverty.
I wish charter schools were the answer. But when 5000 schools were matched in the CREDO research, "17 percent had
students who did better on the whole than their public school twins, in 37 percent they did worse, and in 46 percent there was no statistical difference."
A new look at the CREDO charter school study - The Answer Sheet - The Washington Post
The Rand studies on charter schools similarly concluded,
"in a majority of cases, the gains of students attending charter schools are small or non-existent. In these cases the gains of students attending charter schools are on par with the gains these same students experienced in TPS's
(traditional public schools)."
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2009/RAND_MG869.pdf

Dear, the charter movement provides for very dynamic capitalism, i.e., success is immediately rewarded, failure is immediately punished, and experimentation is constant in order to start a slow upward evolution in school quality.

It is no surprise that a soviet government monopoly turns out about the dumbest kids in the civilized world. How could it possibly compete??

Your radical conservative attempts to defend a badly failed status are pathetic. Do want to bring back the horse and buggy too???

 

[Annika55]

Right...It's all complicated and stuff, so we need the same people who've been fucking up the system for at least the last 50 years to fix it.

Of course it is complicated. The situation in Detroit is a perfect example to examine. Detroit students' performance is appalling.
Adjacent to Detroit are the affluent Grosse Pointes. Their students have the same liberal teachers who are also members of unions. But Grosse Pointe N. students score at the top on all measures. The same is true for many affluent, suburban students in districts within 20 miles of Detroit like Bloomfield Hills, Birmingham and Troy where the students are exceptional performers and over 90% go on to good colleges. Their teachers have training and education similar to Detroit teachers and they also belong to unions.
It seems ridiculous to blame teachers or unions for Detroit school failures unless total credit is given to the teachers and

unions where student achievement is consistently outstanding.
On the other hand, Inkster, and Romulus districts are almost as bad as Detroit. Their schools happen to serve poor, minority students. The same situations exist when comparing affluent suburban and nearby inner city schools around the nation. Students in the affluent schools perform at the top while their impoverished urban counterparts struggle. There is a
similar chasm when comparing economically disadvantaged rural students with more financially secure groups.*
Teachers simply cannot overcome economic, environmental, familial, and cultural barriers to education.
Many inner city HS teachers see over 150 students a day. A teacher can't
protect students from crime and violence in the community. A teacher can't keep students home at night. A teacher can't protect students from the threats and recruiting of local gangs. A teacher can't prevent students from abusing drugs and alcohol or protect students from peer pressure. A teacher can't provide a safe, quiet place to study. A teacher can't provide school supplies, books, magazines, and the latest technology for every student. A teacher can't monitor whether or not students do assignments and study. A teacher can't
prevents students from moving and attending different schools every few months. A teacher can't provide students with time to do schoolwork when their time is spent working or caring for siblings. A teacher can't make sure every student has nutritious food to eat. A teacher can't be responsible for students who only attend school sporadically. A teacher can't protect students from parental absence, neglect or abuse. A teacher isn't responsibles for teens who become pregnant. A teacher can't take all of her students to plays, museums, art galleries, and the ballet.
Yes, education problem ARE complex, and, unfortunately, teachers did not create nor can they solve the problems associated with poverty.
I wish charter schools were the answer. But when 5000 schools were matched in the CREDO research, "17 percent had
students who did better on the whole than their public school twins, in 37 percent they did worse, and in 46 percent there was no statistical difference."
A new look at the CREDO charter school study - The Answer Sheet - The Washington Post
The Rand studies on charter schools similarly concluded,
"in a majority of cases, the gains of students attending charter schools are small or non-existent. In these cases the gains of students attending charter schools are on par with the gains these same students experienced in TPS's
(traditional public schools)."
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2009/RAND_MG869.pdf

Dear, the charter movement provides for very dynamic capitalism, i.e., success is immediately rewarded, failure is immediately punished, and experimentation is constant in order to start a slow upward evolution in school quality.

It is no surprise that a soviet government monopoly turns out about the dumbest kids in the civilized world. How could it possibly compete??

Your radical conservative attempts to defend a badly failed status are pathetic. Do want to bring back the horse and buggy too???

I have clearly said there are many school districts that have OUTSTANDING student achievement. There is no reason to
change what they are doing.
I think poorly performing schools are not meeting student needs. Offering students who may not find college prep classes relevant a strong vocational tech track might be a good idea.

As for "communist" performance, note the Russian Federation TIMSS scores:

Korea and Singapore were the top performers in fourth-grade science, followed by Finland, Japan, the Russian
Federation, Chinese Taipei and the United States. The US state of Florida also had high achievement, though not as high as the top seven.

Singapore was the highest achiever in science at the eighth grade, followed by Chinese Taipei, Korea and Japan. Finland, Slovenia, the Russian Federation, Hong Kong, and England also performed well. In addition, Massachusetts had achievement higher than all countries except Singapore.

The top-performing countries in fourth grade reading were Hong Kong, the Russian Federation, Finland and Singapore. Northern Ireland, the United States, Denmark, Croatia, and Chinese Taipei also had higher achievement than the majority of other participants. In addition, Florida and the Canadian province of Ontario were among the highest
achieving participants.

http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/office...PIRLS_results_released_by_BC_researchers.html

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I have clearly said there are many school districts that have OUTSTANDING student achievement. There is no reason to
change what they are doing.

a liberal will lack the IQ to understand capitalism. Everything is relative. They may be doing outstanding or not. There is no way of knowing until they are in a competitive environment. Soviets thought there cars were competitive when you had to use dip stick to check gasoline tank level and back up hill to feed gravity fed carburetor.