America, The Stupid

American students are not the dumbest in the world. This not true regardless of how often it is repeated.
The top American students do better than top students in the rest of the world (58 countries), and 25% of the TOP scoring students on the PISA are American students.
The problem with comparing US schools test results to those of other countries is that the US averages two totally different sets of results. There is an enormous gap (the highest of all countries) between US top performers and our bottom performers. As one might expect, when we see a mean, the result is just "average."
As Baiamonte said, it would be "stupid" to attribute all of the blame for the test results of impoverished students attending ghetto schools with limited books, technology and other resources (even soap and toilet paper in Detroit) solely on teachers or their unions when the problem is so complex. These lowest scoring students face inherent social problems and obstacles to success
including gang and crime ridden neighborhoods, lack of English proficiency, lack of parental supervision and involvement,
minimal community value of education, homes and neighborhoods without educational resources, frequent family moves, teen pregnancy, ubiquitous drug use, truancy, and a lack of high achieving role models ALL counter the best efforts of school staff.

Another reason America's means scores on international tests are lower than those of other countries is that we test all of our students. Most European and Asian schools start dividing their students into two tracks in HS, an academic and a vo- tech track. In many cases, 50% of the students select the vo-tech program, and only the academic students take the tests like PISA.
Frankly, i think American schools should do a much better job in offering a vo-tech track for students who do not want to go to college. For many of our students, an education in general landscaping or restaurant management might be more valuable than college prep coursework.
 
Last edited:
ALL counter the best efforts of school staff.

another liberal making excuses for our liberal status quo schools turning out about he dumbest kids in the civilized world.

Good schools merely counter all the things you say counter the best efforts of school staff.

See why we are positive a liberal will be slow??

Actually, I think your posts demonstrate the thinking processes of a slow learner:
1. Total intellectual rigidity: I have presented factual evidence and statistics that prove US students are not the dumbest in the world and, in fact, our top students are dominant. You ignore the information and keep repeating your lies.
2. Intellectual simplicity: you reject complex information with knee jerk responses. I have explained WHY our test scores are
different from foreign countries because we test all of our students which creates 2 tiers of results, high achievers and low achievers, which are averaged. I explained that most Asian and European schools track their students into vo-tech and college prep schools, so only half their students are included in the International testing. I explained that it is impossible for schools to counter the environmental challenges, the family dysfunction, the values and attitudes of a minority culture, and the barriers to education that result from poverty and limited educational resources.
You reply to logical, meaningful explanations with thoughtless statements like: American students are dumb because teachers are liberal and good schools could counter all of the problems our second tier students face.

3. Avoiding actual, substantive discussion by tossing out epithets and insults.
Instead of explaining HOW good schools could counter all the problems I specifically explained, you respond that liberals are
slow or call people libtards.

You expect your liberal opposition to offer substantive arguments while all you do is repeat your mantra: US schools are bad and students are dumb because of the evil unions.
 
Last edited:
Edward, I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with your premise. American kids are not the "dumbest kids in the civilized world.

What creates that false impressionis the fact that we allow each and every student to test while other natons only test their top 40%.

too stupid and 100% liberal!!! As if the Ph.d scientists who do the international testing and comparisons don't know to take all known variables into account to get accurate comparisons!!!!!

Can you prove your statement regarding scientists taking known variable into account?
I think the Ph.D scientists just get test scores and present the results with NO accounting for variables like disparities in the testing demographics. Educational researchers and writers do EXPLAIN how certain variables affect the data in journals and books.

You seem to imagine a Ph.D scientist would account for all variables by interviewing each test taking student from each of the countries that participate in the testing. Do you imagine this scientist then adjusts individual or group scores in some way? I guess this scientist considers ALL variables, so he will note whether each student had a good night's sleep before the test, ate a hearty breakfast, and whether or not the student may have had a cold or toothache during the test session.
 
American students are not the dumbest in the world. This not true regardless of how often it is repeated.
The top American students do better than top students in the rest of the world (58 countries), and 25% of the TOP scoring students on the PISA are American students.
The problem with comparing US schools test results to those of other countries is that the US averages two totally different sets of results. There is an enormous gap (the highest of all countries) between US top performers and our bottom performers. As one might expect, when we see a mean, the result is just "average."
As Baiamonte said, it would be "stupid" to attribute all of the blame for the test results of impoverished students attending ghetto schools with limited books, technology and other resources (even soap and toilet paper in Detroit) solely on teachers or their unions when the problem is so complex. These lowest scoring students face inherent social problems and obstacles to success
including gang and crime ridden neighborhoods, lack of English proficiency, lack of parental supervision and involvement,
minimal community value of education, homes and neighborhoods without educational resources, frequent family moves, teen pregnancy, ubiquitous drug use, truancy, and a lack of high achieving role models ALL counter the best efforts of school staff.

Another reason America's means scores on international tests are lower than those of other countries is that we test all of our students. Most European and Asian schools start dividing their students into two tracks in HS, an academic and a vo- tech track. In many cases, 50% of the students select the vo-tech program, and only the academic students take the tests like PISA.
Frankly, i think American schools should do a much better job in offering a vo-tech track for students who do not want to go to college. For many of our students, an education in general landscaping or restaurant management might be more valuable than college prep coursework.

listen up people ^
 
Edward, I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with your premise. American kids are not the "dumbest kids in the civilized world.

What creates that false impressionis the fact that we allow each and every student to test while other natons only test their top 40%.

too stupid and 100% liberal!!! As if the Ph.d scientists who do the international testing and comparisons don't know to take all known variables into account to get accurate comparisons!!!!!

Can you prove your statement regarding scientists taking known variable into account?
I think the Ph.D scientists just get test scores and present the results with NO accounting for variables like disparities in the testing demographics. Educational researchers and writers do EXPLAIN how certain variables affect the data in journals and books.

You seem to imagine a Ph.D scientist would account for all variables by interviewing each test taking student from each of the countries that participate in the testing. Do you imagine this scientist then adjusts individual or group scores in some way? I guess this scientist considers ALL variables, so he will note whether each student had a good night's sleep before the test, ate a hearty breakfast, and whether or not the student may have had a cold or toothache during the test session.

U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan promptly issued a press release calling the results “unacceptable,” saying that they “underscore the urgency of accelerating achievement in secondary school and the need to close large and persistent achievement gaps,” and calling particular attention to the fact that the 8th-grade scores in mathematics for U.S. students failed to improve since the previous administration of the TIMSS.

see dear, the man who knows best seems to agree with me and not you and your lying attempts to preseve liberal union schools at the expense of children.

Why not write to him and tell him the tests are wrong and the status quo is right!!!

See why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow and lack character?
 
Edward, I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with your premise. American kids are not the "dumbest kids in the civilized world.

What creates that false impressionis the fact that we allow each and every student to test while other natons only test their top 40%.

too stupid and 100% liberal!!! As if the Ph.d scientists who do the international testing and comparisons don't know to take all known variables into account to get accurate comparisons!!!!!

Can you prove your statement regarding scientists taking known variable into account?
I think the Ph.D scientists just get test scores and present the results with NO accounting for variables like disparities in the testing demographics. Educational researchers and writers do EXPLAIN how certain variables affect the data in journals and books.

You seem to imagine a Ph.D scientist would account for all variables by interviewing each test taking student from each of the countries that participate in the testing. Do you imagine this scientist then adjusts individual or group scores in some way? I guess this scientist considers ALL variables, so he will note whether each student had a good night's sleep before the test, ate a hearty breakfast, and whether or not the student may have had a cold or toothache during the test session.
How many Ph.D scientists does it take to notice the increasing need for college freshmen to take remedial courses, before they move on to the college level stuff?

Yeah....Variables...:rolleyes:
 
too stupid and 100% liberal!!! As if the Ph.d scientists who do the international testing and comparisons don't know to take all known variables into account to get accurate comparisons!!!!!

Can you prove your statement regarding scientists taking known variable into account?
I think the Ph.D scientists just get test scores and present the results with NO accounting for variables like disparities in the testing demographics. Educational researchers and writers do EXPLAIN how certain variables affect the data in journals and books.

You seem to imagine a Ph.D scientist would account for all variables by
interviewing each test taking student from each of the countries that participate in the testing. Do you imagine this scientist then adjusts individual or group scores in some way? I guess this scientist considers ALL variables, so he will note whether each student had a good night's sleep before the test, ate a hearty breakfast, and whether or not the student may have had a cold or toothache during the test session.

U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan promptly issued a press release calling the results “unacceptable,” saying that they “underscore the urgency of accelerating achievement in secondary school and the need to close large and persistent achievement gaps,” and calling particular attention to the fact that the 8th-grade scores in mathematics for U.S. students failed to improve since the previous administration of the TIMSS.

see dear, the man who knows best seems to agree with me and not you and your lying attempts to preseve liberal union schools at the expense of children.

Why not write to him and tell him the tests are wrong and the status quo is
right!!!

See why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow and lack character?

The only lies that appeared in my posts are YOUR repetitive statements that American students are the dumbest in the world.
I dont know if Arne Duncan knows best. According to his biography, Arne Duncan, U.S. Secretary of Education -- Biography, he spent no time as a teacher in a classroom. I spent over 30 years as a classroom teacher. I retired
11 years ago.




I have already explained that US scores show a huge gap between top and bottom achievers. Test results only show the average of two disparate groups. Since the US top performers compare favorably with international students, the education system is doing very well with this group. As I explained, the educational system is not equipped to deal with most of the out of school obstacles faced by low achieving, poor minority students.

Exclusive! Pasi Sahlberg on TIMSS and PIRLS (Guest Post by Pasi Sahlberg) | National Education Policy Center

"This week educators around the world got a new opportunity to benchmark their students’ performance to their international competitors when The International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement (IEA) released the results of TIMSS (Trends in Mathematics and Science Study) mathematics and science of 63 countries and PIRLS (Progress in Reading Literacy Study) in 48 countries. The United States took part in both of these studies that tested how well 4th grade children can read and what 4th and 8th grade students know about mathematics and science in school.
...*But a glance at participating countries’ national averages reveals some interesting aspects of American students performance in the 2011 TIMSS and PIRLS studies. 4th grade Americans scored high in science and reading and a bit lower in mathematics (7th, 6th and 11th respectively). Ahead were only East Asian countries (South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and Japan) and Finland. Americans 4th graders did better than most of their European peers in all tested areas.

Eighth grade American students also did well, hitting 9th in mathematics and 10th in science. Here again, before the U.S. came East Asians, Finns and, perhaps against the odds, Russians. (Ironically, some Asian school systems want to implement aspects of American education because American students are ranked highest in creativity, confidence, and entrepreneurship.) This may seem to some in America as not good enough. But it is good to remember that according to historical data, American education has never been good if the criterion is performance in international studies. IEA has tested students in mathematics and science since the 1960s, the U.S. being one of the permanent participants. Over the half century, as Yong Zhao has concluded, American students performance in international mathematics and science tests has improved from the bottom to above international average. ...
Another interesting revelation in TIMSS 2011 is amazingly high performance of some U.S. states that took part in that study as ‘countries’. For example, 4th grade pupils in Florida performed above Canadian provinces of Alberta, Ontario and Quebec in reading, science and mathematics and were on par with Finland, except in science. Furthermore, 8th grade students in Massachusetts, Minnesota and Colorado were better than high performing Hong Kong in science. If Massachusetts, Minnesota, North Carolina, Indiana and Colorado were countries, they would all fit into top ten in 8th grade mathematics."

American students scores are not at the top, but there has been improvement.
If you believe our students are doing more poorly now, you will probably be interested in these specific TIMSS scores over time:
Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) - Mathematics Achievement of Fourth- and Eighth-Graders in 2011

"Compared with 1995, the U.S. average mathematics score at grade 4 was 23 score points higher in 2011 (541 v. 518)."

"Compared with 2007, the U.S. average mathematics score at grade 4 was 12 score points higher in 2011 (541 v. 529)."

8th Grade
"Compared with 1995, the U.S. average mathematics score at grade 8 was 17 score points higher in 2011 (509 v. 492)."

"There was no measurable difference between the U.S. average mathematics score at grade 8 in 2007 (508) and in 2011 (509)."
 
I dont know if Arne Duncan knows best.

dear he has an army of scientists working for him and access to any consultants he wants anywhere on earth and nothing to gain and much to lose from a failed liberal school system since he is a liberal himself and probably wants to keep his job and reputation.

Poor U.S. Test Results
Tied To Weak Curriculum

Most of the following was excerpted from a speech by Pascal D. Forgione, Jr., Ph.D. U.S. Commissioner of Education Statistics. As a government researcher, he tries to put the best possible spin on the academic failure of American schools, but this is no sugar-coated report. math scores science scores
 
too stupid and 100% liberal!!! As if the Ph.d scientists who do the international testing and comparisons don't know to take all known variables into account to get accurate comparisons!!!!!

Can you prove your statement regarding scientists taking known variable into account?
I think the Ph.D scientists just get test scores and present the results with NO accounting for variables like disparities in the testing demographics. Educational researchers and writers do EXPLAIN how certain variables affect the data in journals and books.

You seem to imagine a Ph.D scientist would account for all variables by interviewing each test taking student from each of the countries that participate in the testing. Do you imagine this scientist then adjusts individual or group scores in some way? I guess this scientist considers ALL variables, so he will note whether each student had a good night's sleep before the test, ate a hearty breakfast, and whether or not the student may have had a cold or toothache during the test session.
How many Ph.D scientists does it take to notice the increasing need for college freshmen to take remedial courses, before they move on to the college level stuff?

Yeah....Variables...:rolleyes:

The increasing need (which, although lacks supporting evidence, I'll agree with) for college freshman to take remedial classes is not necessarily a function of poor preparation. It could also be because in the past, every ding-dong that thought they should go to college was not given a government low-interest loan.
 
I dont know if Arne Duncan knows best.

dear he has an army of scientists working for him and access to any consultants he wants anywhere on earth and nothing to gain and much to lose from a failed liberal school system since he is a liberal himself and probably wants to keep his job and reputation.

Poor U.S. Test Results
Tied To Weak Curriculum

Most of the following was excerpted from a speech by Pascal D. Forgione, Jr., Ph.D. U.S. Commissioner of Education Statistics. As a government researcher, he tries to put the best possible spin on the academic failure of American schools, but this is no sugar-coated report. math scores science scores

I believe you meant to include some link to the excerpted speech?

At any rate, I'm not sure I agree with the hypothesis that Arnie might have anything to lose from an admission that the "liberal school system" is a failure.

1. Arne runs no school system; There is no such thing at the Federal Level

2. Arne administers Federal programs for which STATES are responisble for implementing

3. Failing State and local educational programs mean they need MORE federal administration.

4. Arne will argue he needs more money to increase federal oversight of state and local school systems.
 
Last edited:
On USMB the other day a fake commencement address by a right wing talking head is praised as the best ever. Since I know many teachers, and the work they do, and the difficulties they face in a society in which only money and sports are worshipped, I took umbrage with such nonsense.

My solution to the buffoon's 'libelous'* speech - I am not sure what word to use when someone who earns their living talking shit all day criticizes people who actually contribute to society - was the old fashioned one, a good punch in the mouth followed by a toss off the stage. How else could you rationally debate a total jackass.

I was raised in a world in which the teacher was in charge in the classroom and the student listened. Today in America every moron, with equally moronic parents, is not only right, but the teachers wrong. And then when asked why our students do so poorly, the teachers are blamed. Imagine if little Joanie studied instead of texting and kicking a ball all evening?

America is becoming stupid because the ideas of fools are taken serious, consider Fox as an example, its listeners know nothing about the world, or consider Rush Limbaugh's nonsense, then there is Coulter, Savage, Beck, Hannity, et al, can anyone think of dumber media personalities? Lots out there. Big money fools support the stupid because the stupid say and write and print what the big money fools want them to say. Consider the revisionist stupidity from Jonah Goldberg? Seriously, are these fools the best the conservatives can bring to the table today?

Liberals today need to call a spade a spade, stupidity is sponsored by the wealthy stupid, and the greedy stupid, and the ideological stupid, stupidity has gone on too long. Every fool gets a Koch, Simmons, Perry, Murdoch et al soapbox when the fool argues against the American values that made this country great, so it time we too call stupid stupid. Unapologetic, I have to say anyone who praises Neal Boortz's fake commencement address is kinda stupid, nah, let's be honest, really stupid.

"Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in God’s eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you." Mark Slouka

* When a right wing talking head condemns a whole group as incompetent, he not makes himself the fool, but his criticism paints a false portrait of a noble profession. Stupid speech is stupid speech and should be labeled stupid.
The teacher is always right? In 50 years, they went from being America's moral compass to ... well, coast to coast, we're seeing a lot of this:

Sex assault by teachers on students an epidemic

An estimated 5 million students in United States schools have been assaulted sexually by teachers, according to a congressional report

The past is nice, midcan, but the present is a nightmare for both students and parents who entrusted their childrens' welfare to people unworthy of the public trust, hired by school districts who failed to screen job candidates out of sheer naivety. That's why thinking parents homeschool children nowadays. Once burned, twice remembered.
 
Edward, I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with your premise. American kids are not the "dumbest kids in the civilized world.

What creates that false impressionis the fact that we allow each and every student to test while other natons only test their top 40%.

too stupid and 100% liberal!!! As if the Ph.d scientists who do the international testing and comparisons don't know to take all known variables into account to get accurate comparisons!!!!!



Feel free to explain how that fact is "taken into account" and then prove it.


I'm NOT surprised that Edward could not support his argument and instead chose to keep repeating the same old droning blather.
 
How many Ph.D scientists does it take to notice the increasing need for college freshmen to take remedial courses, before they move on to the college level stuff?

Yeah....Variables...:rolleyes:

The increasing need (which, although lacks supporting evidence, I'll agree with) for college freshman to take remedial classes is not necessarily a function of poor preparation. It could also be because in the past, every ding-dong that thought they should go to college was not given a government low-interest loan.
The recent increased need for remedial courses for college freshmen is now almost as common knowledge that the sun rises in the east. But, since you asked, here's one source: Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college - Chicago Sun-Times

That every ding-dong who can get a loan is being admitted to college speaks more to the people taking the money than those spending it.
 
America is becoming stupid because the ideas of fools are taken serious,

Taken seriously,

The word Serious is an adjective.

When modifying the verb "are taken," seriously is an adverb.

When your mind is so limited that it cannot address the issue, a grammatical error becomes the refuge of the trivial person. My meaning was clear, now explain Sarah's since you are a follower of the stupid.
 
America is becoming stupid because the ideas of fools are taken serious,

Taken seriously,

The word Serious is an adjective.

When modifying the verb "are taken," seriously is an adverb.

When your mind is so limited that it cannot address the issue, a grammatical error becomes the refuge of the trivial person. My meaning was clear, now explain Sarah's since you are a follower of the stupid.



Don't make excuses for your own errors. You'll never improve that way.
 
How many Ph.D scientists does it take to notice the increasing need for college freshmen to take remedial courses, before they move on to the college level stuff?

Yeah....Variables...:rolleyes:

The increasing need (which, although lacks supporting evidence, I'll agree with) for college freshman to take remedial classes is not necessarily a function of poor preparation. It could also be because in the past, every ding-dong that thought they should go to college was not given a government low-interest loan.
The recent increased need for remedial courses for college freshmen is now almost as common knowledge that the sun rises in the east. But, since you asked, here's one source:
Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college - Chicago Sun-Times

That every ding-dong who can get a loan is being admitted to college speaks more to the people taking the money than those spending it.


Like most issues in education, the topic of students' needing remedial college classes is not as simple as some might assume.

Consider the growth in college enrollment:
"Enrollment in degree-granting institutions increased by 11 percent between 1990 and 2000. Between 2000 and 2010, enrollment increased 37 percent, from 15.3 million to 21.0 million. Much of the growth between 2000 and 2010 was in full-time enrollment; the number of full-time students rose 45 percent, while the number of part-time students rose 26 percent. During the same time period, the number of females rose 39 percent, while the number of males rose 35 percent."
Source:*Digest of Education Statistics, 2011 - Chapter 3: Postsecondary Education
Obviously, when about a third more students are enrolled, one can assume that more lower achieving students are also enrolling. This would be especially true during a time when younger people and minorities are unemployed at higher proportions than in the general population.
Since jobs are so scarce, many unemployed *people who might not have gone to college are now choosing to improve their chances of finding a job. The availability of Pell grants and other student aid also makes the return to college even more appealing today.

It is also important to look at who needs remediation most:
*"While most four-year private and public universities offer remediation, the bulk of remedial work is done by community colleges, whose doors are open to anyone with a high school diploma or GED."
Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college - Chicago Sun-Times

Unlike 25 years ago, students today *know that there are fewer manual labor/unskilled jobs available. Since education beyond HS *is necessary for most *jobs today, more students who might have previously found jobs right out of HS *are now*entering 2 and 4 year colleges.

Students believe they are doing well in HS when they earn B's and C's.*Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college - Chicago Sun-Times
In reality, those grades now mean mediocre achievement.
I began teaching in 1968 and ended my career in 2002. I absolutely saw grade inflation over those years. The C grade that was "average" became a B.*Parents demanded extra credit opportunities to raise grades and administrators did not always support teachers who were "tough graders." School administrators would create charts to compare teacher grades, and those whose grades were lower than others in the department were "told" to raise their scores. Poor student grades were said to represent teacher failure. Teachers were seriously "counseled" when they gave too many D's and E's.

I think the high stakes testing in HS also may contribute to the problem. Teachers may focus on test taking skills and test-oriented content while spending less time developing analytical and writing skills. As teachers and students spend more time on testing priorities (since teacher evaluations and job security are tied to test scores), there may be less focus on time-consuming critical writing assignments.

There may be a gap between HS and college curricula, particularly as classroom content may change to match up with test demands.
"High school teachers and administrators are either unaware of what is expected in college, or unable to align their curricula with college prep because the material on standardized tests does not match material colleges are looking for students to know. Colleges also use a variety of placement tests, which adds to the confusion over what students need to know."
Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college - Chicago Sun-Times

I believe that in the past, *4 year colleges did not offer remedial courses and students just dropped out if their skills were not adequate for college work.*
Today, with the much higher cost of college tuition, there is also a financial incentive for colleges to do placement testing and maximize the number of students who have to pay for remedial classes.
 
too stupid and 100% liberal!!! As if the Ph.d scientists who do the international student testing and comparisons don't know to take all known variables into account to get accurate comparisons!!!!!
Can you prove your statement regarding scientists taking known variable into account?

its a good assumption given that the smartest people in the world with the most resources in the world, and with the most to lose from the poor test scores accept that American kids are among the dumbest in the world!!

"The results of an international assessment released earlier this month show the consequences of America's failure to build on what works in education. American students ranked in the middle of countries participating in the Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA. Underlying the results are the stark differences between practices in the top-performing countries and the prevailing approaches to education in the United States"- Randi Weingartner
(teacher union president)

I dont know if Arne Duncan(Sec of Education) knows best.

dear he has an army of scientists working for him and access to any consultants he wants anywhere on earth and nothing to gain and much to lose from a failed liberal school system since he is a liberal himself and probably wants to keep his job and reputation.

Poor U.S. Test Results
Tied To Weak Curriculum

Most of the following was excerpted from a speech by Pascal D. Forgione, Jr., Ph.D. U.S. Commissioner of Education Statistics. As a government researcher, he tries to put the best possible spin on the academic failure of American schools, but this is no sugar-coated report. math scores science scores
 

Forum List

Back
Top