America should change sides and support Palestine.

[editec]

The USA already supports the Palestinian Athurity... to the tune of roughly $200,000,000 a year

 

[Politico]

I appreciate your clean debate cop out. But America shouldn't be supporting anyone.

 

[sealadaigh]

The USA already supports the Palestinian Athurity... to the tune of roughly $200,000,000 a year

and we support israel to the tune of $2, 854,000,000.00, or about 15X more than what we give the PA.

i mean, i don't know what that has to do with anything, but if we are doing the math, we save a heck of a lot more cutting ties with israel.

 

[sealadaigh]

I appreciate your clean debate cop out. But America shouldn't be supporting anyone.

i don't know to whom you are referring, but i do not regard the CDZ as a cop out at all. from where i have just come, the palestine/israel board, is a cop out. over there, arguement consist of who can call whom the more vulgar and demeaning name.

i gladly will concede that victory to the pro-israeli/zionist/jewish posters. i think if confronted with UNGA resolution 242, they would just try to add the numbers up...and probably wouldn't even be able to come up with the correct answer to that.

 

[georgephillip]

I've popped this in 'clean debate' in an attempt to seriously chat about US middle eastern policy.

America should change sides and support Palestine.

Imagine the advantages:

Way cheaper than supporting Israel.
Only one enemy in the middle east
No worries about oil supply.

Can anyone suggest why the US supporting Palestine has a downside?

The Jewish State is not going to change its policies of "creeping annexation" and "creeping transfer".
As Chomsky's pointed out repeatedly these go back to the 1920s: "dunam after dunam."
Always arousing as little attention as possible, but never losing sight of the goal:
A Jewish State from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River with minority rule by Jews and their useful idiots.

The world is waking, and Israel will eventually suffer the same fate as White South Africa.
The US should lead the way, but that will never happen as long as Republicans AND Democrats control the US government.
The solution begins with FLUSHING the US Congress of Republicans AND Democrats.
Then FLUSH Israel.

Failed States p.191

 

[Truthseeker420]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4]Israel and Hamas Gaza Strikes: The 'Collateral Damage' (Disturbing Video) - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0]Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[WillowTree]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

israel will not defeat HAMAS, and HANAS represents a large portion of the palestinian people. they need to be at the table. they need to be part of the negotiations.

That's a good idea Israel should bring hamas to the table and then blow up the table. Hamas should reap what it sows.

 

[georgephillip]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

israel will not defeat HAMAS, and HANAS represents a large portion of the palestinian people. they need to be at the table. they need to be part of the negotiations.

That's a good idea Israel should bring hamas to the table and then blow up the table. Hamas should reap what it sows.

Please mention that to Moshe the next time you see him.

In 1970 Moshe Dayan told his cabinet his message for all Palestinians was simply this: we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where the process leads.

The process leads to Gaza.

 

[Katzndogz]

I would no more expect Israel to sit at the table with Hamas than I would expect the US, even under Obama, to sit at the table with Al-Queda.

obama wouldn't be sitting at the table with Al Queda. obama would be under the table on his knees.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Change sides? Am I the only person who recognizes that taking sides in a religious war is what got us into trouble in the first place?

 

[SAYIT]

I've popped this in 'clean debate' in an attempt to seriously chat about US middle eastern policy.

America should change sides and support Palestine.

Imagine the advantages:

Way cheaper than supporting Israel.
Only one enemy in the middle east
No worries about oil supply.

Can anyone suggest why the US supporting Palestine has a downside?

what america should do is support a just and peaceful settlement or get out of the picture and that peaceful settlement should begin with UN resolution 181 as a starting point in negotiating borders.

HAMAS will not be defeated and they are not going anywhere so america should bring them to the negotiating table with no preconditions. there will be no solution without HAMAS. israel knows this and reuses to negotiate with them which, coincidentally, allows them to continue their illegal settlement building.

israel should release marwan barghouti to lead the palestinian negotiating team, provided HAMAS and the PLO agree, which i am sure they would. of course, israel won't do that because, coincidentally, it would mean a cessation of illegal settlement building which is contrary to israel's intentions.

the downside is that american jews, who have been putting their nickels and dimes in those little blue cans since maybe forever, have an unrealistic idea that israel need include judea and samaria, or the west bank which is a necessity for a viable palestinian homeland, and yhey are willing to sacrifice untold jewish and palestinian lives so that they can have their perect little paradise, complete with a ski resort on stolen syrian land.

not much of a downside if you ask me.

one may also want to comsider the fact that, as the surrounding arab countries rise up and struggle for a democracy, we are going to look awfully foolish supporting a failed colonial enterprise.

america should embrace the principles that made us great, and cunduct ourselves in such a manner in the mideast. it is about time.

I will cleanly address two of your points,
1) UN 181, a non-binding Gen Ass res, is a dead issue (although the Arabs, who violently rejected it in 1947, now regularly ask for a do-over).
2) What Jews in America want - as if one could get a monolithic opinion on this subject - is for the Arabs and Israelis to find a peaceful solution to their conflict.
Oh, and have a nice day.

 

[Bleipriester]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

Lets see. Israel killed the "Hamas military chief" and put a video of this murder proudly into the internet. But the world complains of the reaction - the lates missile attacks.
And what you say about the Hamas fits exactly to Israel, but they use modern weapons.

To the topic:
America should neither support Israel nor Palestine. It is up to the UN to ensure that peace will come to the region. And this means a Palestine nation.
Why are the US supporting Israel?
Isn´t it due to the "Jewish" capital, wich would cause an US economy crash, in the case of being withdrawn?
And isn´t it due to the influence the Jews take on American politics and public opinion?

 

[SAYIT]

Well, guidance systems are so poor, most fall onto fields or in the sea but they can target a pizza queue.
So, excluding the emotive lies, can you explain why support for Palestine instead of Israel would hurt the US?

I am sure one could have made a similar argument about Japan in 1941. I mean we were making a lot of money off selling Oil and metal to Japan.

As for pizza parlors Hamas used suicide bombers on buses and pizza parlors full of teenagers.

and israel and/or israelis drops bombs on apartment buildings full of children, commits war crimes by using certain weapons illegally violates international law constantly, and commits acts of genocide as defined by the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide...

and where does this two sidedd litany of sins get us. nowhere.

HAMAS is not defeated and they represent a lot of people. to exclude them from any part in negotiating and planning a future palestinian state is folly.

Woo.
I agree with your "litany of sins" assessment and have long held that view.
What is past cannot be undone and cannot be allowed to destroy any chance of a peaceful future, IMHO.

 

[SAYIT]

I would no more expect Israel to sit at the table with Hamas than I would expect the US, even under Obama, to sit at the table with Al-Queda.

I would expect and even require our gov't to talk to al Qaeda if it saved lives. Notice I did not say surrender. I expect those in our gov't to hold human life to be more important than principles.

 

[SAYIT]

I would no more expect Israel to sit at the table with Hamas than I would expect the US, even under Obama, to sit at the table with Al-Queda.

al-queda represents whom? al-queda.

sinn fein was a proscribed organisation and the UK sat down with them. and we ended up with the good friday/belfast agreement.

but that is fine. the conflict will continue in a war where israel cannot even afford one defeat, and they will be fighting an enemy that cannot be defeated.

israel's intransience on negotiating will lead to one or the other peoples being pushed into the sea, and either way, israel loses.

another thing to consider is that, if israel continues as they are doing, there is probably going to be a backlash against jewish people world wide.

israel can negotiate from a position of strength now, or they can negotiate from a poition of weakness later.

Woo. I agree with that assessment also.

 

[Katzndogz]

A backlash against Jewish people has been going on for hundreds of years. Nothing that is done today will change that.

 

[SAYIT]

When Hamas is ready to sit on the table, Israel will. Israel will not sit down with any entity whose goal is Israel's annihilation.

From the Hamas platform:

Article Thirteen

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the

international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all

contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing

any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the

nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the

movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the

banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is

the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

So I ask you, why would Israel bother?

there is an implicit nullification of that portion of the charter in the fact that HAMAS is willing to sit down and negotiate.

haniyeh has distanced himself from the charter, as have other leading HAMAS figures, to include the recently assassinated al-jabari.

i would never ever suggest we change our declaration of independence to accomodate our current relationship with great britain.

here is what wiki says about the charter...

Relevance of the Charter in the 21st centuryBritish diplomat and former British ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006 as part of their political program".[8] Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, “It’s a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended... It projects anger, not vision.”[14] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[6]

Dr. Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh (the senior political leader of Hamas) has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.He further states that "the Israelis have, for example, translated the charter to several languages, English and French included, intentionally perverting the substance of its tenets to suit their purposes. Those aims were to market its fraudulent translation to as many Western politicians, academics and media channels as possible; and therefore make it easier to claim security concerns as the basis for their legal infractions. The fear-mongering is designed to horrify the West so much that it turns a blind eye to Israels crimes against humanity which contravene international law".[13]

In a further move away from their charter Hamas have stated according to Agence France-Presse and Al Jazeera "the question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people."[15][16] However many remain sceptical of Hamas's new stance, and view at as a ploy to hide its true agenda, "but it is equally true that the “new” discourse of diluted religious content—to say nothing of the movement’s increasing pragmatism and flexibility in the political domain—reflects genuine and cumulative changes within Hamas."[7]

Hamas Covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a peace is not achieved by people dragging their feet. it is only achieved by negotiation with ALL interested parties.

While lately I've stopped using Hamas's Charter as a talking point, if they were sincerely interested in ending the carnage they would EXPLICITLY renounce it. Just sayin'.

 

[FckingAmazing]

I've popped this in 'clean debate' in an attempt to seriously chat about US middle eastern policy.

America should change sides and support Palestine.

Imagine the advantages:

Way cheaper than supporting Israel.
Only one enemy in the middle east
No worries about oil supply.

Can anyone suggest why the US supporting Palestine has a downside?

If America is biggest democracy , i think they should be objective , and they should stop the war .. they can loose Israel's money but its worth for JUSTICE..

and the problem is ..that if America just be objective , Israel will start hate America ..

If America just be objective i think problem solved .. and everybody will live in peace... we all together fight with real terrorists ..

 

[sealadaigh]

I've popped this in 'clean debate' in an attempt to seriously chat about US middle eastern policy.

America should change sides and support Palestine.

Imagine the advantages:

Way cheaper than supporting Israel.
Only one enemy in the middle east
No worries about oil supply.

Can anyone suggest why the US supporting Palestine has a downside?

what america should do is support a just and peaceful settlement or get out of the picture and that peaceful settlement should begin with UN resolution 181 as a starting point in negotiating borders.

HAMAS will not be defeated and they are not going anywhere so america should bring them to the negotiating table with no preconditions. there will be no solution without HAMAS. israel knows this and reuses to negotiate with them which, coincidentally, allows them to continue their illegal settlement building.

israel should release marwan barghouti to lead the palestinian negotiating team, provided HAMAS and the PLO agree, which i am sure they would. of course, israel won't do that because, coincidentally, it would mean a cessation of illegal settlement building which is contrary to israel's intentions.

the downside is that american jews, who have been putting their nickels and dimes in those little blue cans since maybe forever, have an unrealistic idea that israel need include judea and samaria, or the west bank which is a necessity for a viable palestinian homeland, and yhey are willing to sacrifice untold jewish and palestinian lives so that they can have their perect little paradise, complete with a ski resort on stolen syrian land.

not much of a downside if you ask me.

one may also want to comsider the fact that, as the surrounding arab countries rise up and struggle for a democracy, we are going to look awfully foolish supporting a failed colonial enterprise.

america should embrace the principles that made us great, and cunduct ourselves in such a manner in the mideast. it is about time.

I will cleanly address two of your points,
1) UN 181, a non-binding Gen Ass res, is a dead issue (although the Arabs, who violently rejected it in 1947, now regularly ask for a do-over).
2) What Jews in America want - as if one could get a monolithic opinion on this subject - is for the Arabs and Israelis to find a peaceful solution to their conflict.
Oh, and have a nice day.

and i did not say that israel need accept UN resolution 181 (although they have twice). what i said is that the negotiations about borders should begin with those defined in 181. and yes, 181 is non-binding, but as a condition of UNGA resolution 273, where the conditions by which israel was to gain acceptance as a member state to the UN are defined, israel agree to abide by 181...and yes, 273 is also nonbinding as a resolution but it has validity as an agreement.

this agreement was made after the arab israeli war also, negating all the assertions about israel agreed and "the arabs didn't". resolution 273 was an agreement between the UN and israel.

if you are saying that israel cannot be trusted to honour their agreements, well, of course i agree.

yes, some jews in america want a just peaceful solution, but they are few and far between. i donate to their cause. other jews think a peaceful solution is for the west bank to be ethnically cleansed. those are the ones i encounter most often.

i think the world has heard too many times that israel wants peace and have seen very little genuine efforts to achieve that end. the arab peace initiative gave israel everything they said they wanted, and when it was offered, israel wanted more.

but, why don't you tell me, specifically, what you think a just peace would involve. perhaps you would even be willing to show a map as to where the borders would be and discuss east al quds.

we can start at 181 as a reference point.

 

[sealadaigh]

I am sure one could have made a similar argument about Japan in 1941. I mean we were making a lot of money off selling Oil and metal to Japan.

As for pizza parlors Hamas used suicide bombers on buses and pizza parlors full of teenagers.

and israel and/or israelis drops bombs on apartment buildings full of children, commits war crimes by using certain weapons illegally violates international law constantly, and commits acts of genocide as defined by the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide...

and where does this two sidedd litany of sins get us. nowhere.

HAMAS is not defeated and they represent a lot of people. to exclude them from any part in negotiating and planning a future palestinian state is folly.

Woo.
I agree with your "litany of sins" assessment and have long held that view.
What is past cannot be undone and cannot be allowed to destroy any chance of a peaceful future, IMHO.

the borders aren't done and the right of return is still a right of return...i.e. the refugee status is not done.