America should change sides and support Palestine.

[Politico]

obama wouldn't be sitting at the table with Al Queda. obama would be under the table on his knees.

Bless your heart. You think Obama would show up to the table.

 

[skye]

I think the President really needs to step up big time and make it perfectly clear that we are 100%
behind the survival of Israel.

I agree.

In words and deeds!

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I've popped this in 'clean debate' in an attempt to seriously chat about US middle eastern policy.

America should change sides and support Palestine.

Imagine the advantages:

Way cheaper than supporting Israel.
Only one enemy in the middle east
No worries about oil supply.

Can anyone suggest why the US supporting Palestine has a downside?

American shouldn’t support any ‘side.’

 

[skye]

I've popped this in 'clean debate' in an attempt to seriously chat about US middle eastern policy.

America should change sides and support Palestine.

Imagine the advantages:

Way cheaper than supporting Israel.
Only one enemy in the middle east
No worries about oil supply.

Can anyone suggest why the US supporting Palestine has a downside?

American shouldn’t support any ‘side.’

In your dreams!

 

[georgephillip]

From the Wiki article on the 'Institute for Policy Study', which is a (?how far)left-leaning 'independent think tank'

Institute for Policy Studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The IPS opposed the Iraqi no-fly-zone that was set up to protect Kurds and Shias after the Gulf War.[18]
The IPS opposed the NATO war undertaken to stop Slobodan Milošević's alleged ethnic cleansing campaign in Kosovo.[18]


Care to comment on those views ? The IPS is the parent group for the article GP cited. I fail to see where it matters so much what the British wanted or were trying to do- particularly as it appears to be the radical Islamists of HAMAS who are seeking a religious war. The US and the UK usually have goals quite similar, so if anything that'd be a recommendation to NOT change policy.

I have no idea why IPS opposed Operation Southern Watch unless someone anticipated an event like Khobar Towers:

"On 25 June 1996, a barracks at a US base in Khobar, Saudi Arabia housing personnel supporting Operation Southern Watch was blown up by a truck bomb. The blast killed 19 US Air Force servicemen and a Saudi national, and injured 372 people. Who ordered the bombing is still in doubt, with suspicion being cast on Iraq, Iran or the Al-Qaida terrorist organization..."

Many opposed NATO's air efforts in Yugoslavia since they seemed designed to ensure Milosevic's ethnic cleansing would become even more deadly. Which is precisely what happened.

Western imperial interests have soaked several major continents in blood over the last 500 years, and Lord Balfour's declaration, coming as it did at precisely the same time the Royal Navy was switching from coal to oil to power its fleets, has always reeked of corporate hypocrisy.

The first British Military Governor of Jerusalem apparently saw the connection you claim to be missing:

"Sir Ronald Storrs, the first Governor of Jerusalem, certainly had no illusions about what a 'Jewish homeland' in Palestine meant for the British Empire: 'It will form for England,” he said, “a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.'”

Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules | FPIF

 

[georgephillip]

I think the President really needs to step up big time and make it perfectly clear that we are 100%
behind the survival of Israel.

At what level of expense?
How many more US taxpayer dollars?
How many more US lives lost (like those on the USS Liberty)
It's long past time for Israel to sink or swim on its own.

 

[Indofred]

Change sides? Am I the only person who recognizes that taking sides in a religious war is what got us into trouble in the first place?

Not at all.
I believe lots of people know this fact.

 

[Indofred]

A backlash against Jewish people has been going on for hundreds of years. Nothing that is done today will change that.

Could you explain how that excuses Israel's stealing of Palestinian land and attempted genocide of the Palestinians?

 

[Indofred]

Well, there is that small matter of Israeli nuclear weapons but Obama might be just stupid enough to try it anyway.

So, are you saying Israel's US supplied nuclear weapons would be a threat to America if the US stopped support for Israel?

Your sig line is far from historically accurate. Have you no idea why the Marines sing about 'the shores of Tripoli'?

I assume you're talking about the Barbary pirate's attack on Florida, oh, no, US forces were in their area.
True, they were evil and nasty as were British and American slavers of that time...what, you don't know America was the major slave buying nation of the world at one time?

The pirates took about 700 Americans as slaves, how many Africans were slaves in America at that time?

 

[Indofred]

I think the President really needs to step up big time and make it perfectly clear that we are 100%
behind the survival of Israel.

Please explain why.

 

[Indofred]

I appreciate your clean debate cop out. But America shouldn't be supporting anyone.

Not a cop out, just an attempt to see real ideas regarding US support for Israel.
This way, the usual insults and mud slinging can be avoided in favour of valid points in favour of either side.

What is very telling is the lack of some more insulting posters on this thread.
That suggests there is little actual contribution available from them against my assertion, The US should stop supporting Israel.

 

[FckingAmazing]

maybe .. we need to go with a new MAVI MARMARA with good Jews brothers ..

 

[sealadaigh]

" israel and/or israelis drops bombs on apartment buildings full of children, commits war crimes by using certain weapons illegally violates international law constantly, and commits acts of genocide as defined by the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide..."

I do not think it's possible to substantiate the above, because I know of no instance where Israel knew there were "apartment buildings full of children" and chose to violate the GC by dropping bombs. I know of the LEGAL use of WP and such IN LEGAL WAYS during Cast Lead - which did NOT violate international law (WP isn't totally completely outlawed). And I do not see the committing of acts of genocide by Israel AS CLAIMED. There are certainly unlawful and simply wrong actions by assorted individuals with Israeli citizenship, and even 'official' acts by government which are wrong (and often protested vigorously by Israelis and Jews in other nations)

All of the allegations claimed against Israel, have many times been proven true of "Palestinian freedom fighters" - the deliberate seeking of civilian targets, particularly children (schoolbus abduction, Purim bombing, etc) The call for genocide is clear in the HAMAS Charter, the use of 'suicide' bombings against civilians is well-documented - as are the BIG LIES of faked 'atrocities' (Jenin, Mohammed al-dura, the 'ambulance hit by a bomb'....)

And then of course there are the very real atrocities - the murders of the Fogel family, the lynching and murder of two Israelis *in police custody* complete with 'triumphant' song and dance as the muderers displayed their bloody hands to the mob - and other such incidents which somehow are always forgotten and excused by the so-claimed 'peace activists'.

The quote above IMPLIES that all or 'most' or 'more' of the intolerable violence is from the Israelis. That is hardly accurate - unless, of course, one believes that the Palestinians are always 'justified' and the Israelis are always wrong.

If that IS anyone's position here - intellectual honesty demands they disclose their view.

My apologies: I thought I'd made it clear what I was asking to be substantiated. Of course, I've also previously mentioned that I do NOT like being addressed as 'Maggie' - but that also seems to have gone unnoticed.

my son is coming home on leave before he goes overseas and i am all he has in this world, so i am going to ejnoy his company. i do not have the time to respond to this in the detail i would like.

"israel and/or israelis"...i said israel and/or israelis. most israelis who committhese rimes are given no more than a slap on the wrist. soldiers are even better. even when 35 IDF soldiers gang rape a 12 y.o. jewish girl over a two year period, a slap on the wrist forr two of the soldiers and the rest were nothing. zionists defended the soldiers by saying thr sex was consentual. imam al-hams killer, capt. R, was tried after emptying a clip into her head. conduct unbecoming, illegal use of a weapon, perverting course of ustice...not guilty...promoted to major R.

links to substantiate some allegations i have made re: childrern, war crimes,

2009 Ibrahim al-Maqadna Mosque strike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Abd Rabbo family incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Salah Shehade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Iman Darweesh Al Hams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Al-Fakhura school incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zeitoun incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



and last but not least, you will find a PDF link to "the united nations fact finding mission on the gaza conflict". please note, to those of you who want to say richarfd goldstone backed away from the report later, that richard goldstone was the head of the committee, not the entire committee. the other members stand by their findings. richard goldstone backed of after he had suffered such severe ostracism from his south african community and the subect of such hateful backlash that he could not attend his grandson's bar mitzvah

United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict

war crimes and crimes against humanity...had germany won WWII, had they been victors, they would have been heroes instead of war criminals. israel's military courts have regularly a exonerated soldiers in the IDF of any responsibility for their often deadly "mistakes." the IDF has come to operate with an aire of impunity, in fact, they operate with such an aire of impunity that they celebrate war crimes and crimes against humanity with shirts that glorify the killing of pregnant woman.

as for white phosphorus...

Israel used white phosphorus in Gaza civilian areas | Amnesty International

Israel: White Phosphorus Use Evidence of War Crimes | Human Rights Watch

and the above UN fact finding mission.

and for what it is worth, i am/was a master gunner/fdc in the U.S. Army Field Artillery and i watch the 11 o'clock news. they only said "artillery fire in gaza" with the film and i right awaay knew it was WP rounds being fired into a heavily populated civilian area, so don't you dare try to tell me thaat it was not a war crime. IT WAS!!! there is absolutly no reason to fire WP rounds like that other than terrorise the civilian population.

you can claim that these were not deliberate. some may not have been, bit the "we didn't knows" will only go so far. they should have known. how in the world is their surveilance of salah shehade be so precise and thorough and yet miss the dozen plus civilians, including seven children. there are too many "we didn't know."

and we seem to have two incredibly inept militaries at work here. the military, which does everything it can to protect palestinian children and civilians, is killing gets at a rate of ten to one more than HAMAS, who deliberately targets children. i hate body counts, but if you check B'Tselem, you will find plenty of incidents where a child is or children are killed and yet, no islamist is killed and no IDF soldier is wounded by return fire. yes, HAMAS has used human shields on occasion, as have the IDF, but not to any great extent that i can tell by either side and certainly not enough to account for the number of palestinians killed.

genocide...ok...CPPCG was adopted by the UN in '48...

definition.

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Genocide Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

do you actually think the palestinian peoples have a chance of forming a nation after israel has finished slicing and dicing the west bank.

also, the bedouins are a seprate cultural group...

Israel: Halt Demolitions of Bedouin Homes in Negev | Human Rights Watch

Stop creating forests that are destroying Bedouin lives | Amnesty International


i think i can condemn calley, medina, americal for war crimes and my lai without mentioning the viet cong and NVA atrocities. that doesn't mean i condone them. your quote by me above "IMPLIES" nothing at all. bringing up the fogel family is ridiculous in the context of this discussion. i suppose i could bring up son of sam, david berkowitz.

i, more than anyone, zionest or pro-palestinian, have condemned atrocities committed by the other sides. i, more than anyone, zionest or pro-palestinian, have defended incidents commtted by the other side when i thought the accusation lacked evidence or was wrong.

i have never even once seen you, or any other zionest or that matter, condemn any act committed by any israeli other than the obligatory "shame, shame, baruch goldstein" for his actions at al-khalil, and it is not at all unusual for theose "shame, shame"s to be followed by a "but...".

and,maggie, i do not recall you asking me that. what i do recall is that i have, on numerous occasions, to copy the post to which you are replying. you seem to be more guilty of false portryal than i. also, provibing substantiation isn't your long suit exactly, either.

 

[Katzndogz]

obama wouldn't be sitting at the table with Al Queda. obama would be under the table on his knees.

Bless your heart. You think Obama would show up to the table.

He's be at the table with Al Quaeda, we all know he wouldn't be at a table with Israel.

 

[SAYIT]

and i did not say that israel need accept UN resolution 181 (although they have twice). what i said is that the negotiations about borders should begin with those defined in 181. and yes, 181 is non-binding, but as a condition of UNGA resolution 273, where the conditions by which israel was to gain acceptance as a member state to the UN are defined, israel agree to abide by 181...and yes, 273 is also nonbinding as a resolution but it has validity as an agreement.

this agreement was made after the arab israeli war also, negating all the assertions about israel agreed and "the arabs didn't". resolution 273 was an agreement between the UN and israel.

if you are saying that israel cannot be trusted to honour their agreements, well, of course i agree.

yes, some jews in america want a just peaceful solution, but they are few and far between. i donate to their cause. other jews think a peaceful solution is for the west bank to be ethnically cleansed. those are the ones i encounter most often.

i think the world has heard too many times that israel wants peace and have seen very little genuine efforts to achieve that end. the arab peace initiative gave israel everything they said they wanted, and when it was offered, israel wanted more.

but, why don't you tell me, specifically, what you think a just peace would involve. perhaps you would even be willing to show a map as to where the borders would be and discuss east al quds.

we can start at 181 as a reference point.

It doesn't matter where I believe the lines should be drawn ... it is up to the Arabs and Israelis to sort that out without external interference and the "Peace Initiative" has not found enthusiastic support amongst "Palestinians" either.
"Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Gaza Strip, is deeply divided with most factions rejecting the plan"
Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the vast maority of palestinians approve of the initiative...

You have something which substantiates that claim?

 

[sealadaigh]

It doesn't matter where I believe the lines should be drawn ... it is up to the Arabs and Israelis to sort that out without external interference and the "Peace Initiative" has not found enthusiastic support amongst "Palestinians" either.
"Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Gaza Strip, is deeply divided with most factions rejecting the plan"
Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the vast maority of palestinians approve of the initiative...

You have something which substantiates that claim?

"Polls of the Palestinian people have generated large support for the plan. Support has decreased slightly after the Gaza War. However, the majority is still in favor."

Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or see link at the bottom of your original post above.

(gee, didn't have to go far for that one now, did i?)

for two people who rarely substantiate anything in their own posts, you and maggie sure expect a lot out of others. one might almost suspect harrassment.

 

[FckingAmazing]

Injustice anywhere is a threat to the justice everywhere
Martin Luther King Junior

Londra

 

[Meathead]

Injustice anywhere is a threat to the justice everywhere
Martin Luther King Junior

Londra

Since killings happen from and on both sides, I cannot tell you how impressed I would be to see a Palestinian, or any Arab for that matter, carry a similar sign. I see Israelis carrying signs like that, and I realize the stark difference between the sides and why I support Israel.

 

[FckingAmazing]

Injustice anywhere is a threat to the justice everywhere
Martin Luther King Junior

Londra

Since killings happen from and on both sides, I cannot tell you how impressed I would be to see a Palestinian, or any Arab for that matter, carry a similar sign. I see Israelis carrying signs like that, and I realize the stark difference between the sides and why I support Israel.

maybe becoz you wanna see like that you want ? you are a good person or you are a racist ? which side you are ?

 

[FckingAmazing]