America & Nazi Germany

[Artevelde]

Thank God we used fascism to fight fascism!

The Road To Serfdom

Pretty ridiculous. Hayek would never have considered FDR or his policies Fascist.

 

[Artevelde]

Thank God we used fascism to fight fascism!

The Road To Serfdom

We did not, is your real name PETAIN by any chance? You do not seem to have learned about the millions killed by REAL Fascists, read up on it.

I'm not a faon of Pétain, but you have a far too simplistic and inaccurate view of history. You do realize of course that FDR continued to recognize the Pétain regime as the legitimate French Government right through 1942? And that he prefereed Vichy-regime officials to De Gaulle?

You are quite right that Fascists and Nazi's were responsible for killing millions of people. Millions less than the millions killed by Communists, but pretty dreadful all the same. It was unfortunate that FDR and the Allies had to make common cause with the murderous Stalin regime and abett its crimes in order to defeat the Nazi-threat.

 

[Artevelde]

Thank God we used fascism to fight fascism!

The Road To Serfdom

As the FAR right decided to ignore Hitler, FDR was initiating Lend Lease, or perhaps you missed that in your "studies".

You seemed to have missed the first two terms of FDR, when he supported the Neutrality Acts and a policy of isolationism.

 

[Artevelde]

As the FAR right decided to ignore Hitler, FDR was initiating Lend Lease, or perhaps you missed that in your "studies".

That is not exactly how it was.

FDR was pretty much the only who stood up to Congress and the prevailing political view among elected politicians in both parties, but especially in the pro-business pro-eugenics types... that Hitler was the man to back in Europe over the British Empire, which at the time was seen as a threat to the US. At the time, Hitler's policies were closer to the US's own views than that of their "enemy" the British Empire... both economically and socially.

Even among FDRs cabinet there was Hitler supporters who were lobbying FDR not to back the UK up.

Now when I say Hitler supporters.. I dont mean raving NAZI's. The motivation to support Hitler over the UK varied from business (Bush's grandfather for example) to the threat of the British Empire on US aspirations world wide. They simply saw Nazi Germany as the best bet in a war in Europe and the enemy of my enemy... the British Empire.

Somewhat true, but the fact so many wanted to stay OUT of WWII is pretty much a given, due to our lack of military readiness, and focus on attacking FDR.

FDR wanted to stay out of WWII too.

 

[Artevelde]

FDR didn't want to know about Nazi atrosities. Even after his own administration begged him to relax the immigration standards so that Jews could leave Germany he refused. The US had no intelligence network and the State Dept consisted of a bunch of rich liberals who used US embassies for parties. The ambassador to Germany was an honest college professor who was ridiculed by FDR's elite liberals and he was finally relieved of duty when he complained too much about Hitler.

I don't think that is true at all.

But it does remind me of when the BBC admittedly recently that they had not broadcast reports about the deathcamps when they first heard them because they thought they had to be exggerated. My parents said the same - the first time you heard about ovens, your first reaction was 'Really? Surely not!'.

It's easy to blame them from 2012.

That last sentence is very true.

 

[Artevelde]

FDR didn't want to know about Nazi atrosities. Even after his own administration begged him to relax the immigration standards so that Jews could leave Germany he refused. The US had no intelligence network and the State Dept consisted of a bunch of rich liberals who used US embassies for parties. The ambassador to Germany was an honest college professor who was ridiculed by FDR's elite liberals and he was finally relieved of duty when he complained too much about Hitler.

I don't think that is true at all.

But it does remind me of when the BBC admittedly recently that they had not broadcast reports about the deathcamps when they first heard them because they thought they had to be exggerated. My parents said the same - the first time you heard about ovens, your first reaction was 'Really? Surely not!'.

It's easy to blame them from 2012.

My mother, who was a child at the time, said the same thing; people in the US heard about the atrocities but had a tough believing it was true. It was unprecedented in their lives. FDR remains the first world leader to condemn Nazi Germany.
____________________________________________________________

During his first term Roosevelt condemned Hitler's persecution of German Jews.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt - New World Encyclopedia

Many other world leaders, of various political persuasions, condemned Nazi Germany too. FDR was a great President, but stopping the Nazi's really wasn't a priority for him in his first two terms, domestic politics was.

 

[Artevelde]

We did not, is your real name PETAIN by any chance? You do not seem to have learned about the millions killed by REAL Fascists, read up on it.

Ummm, actually yes we did. In the first part of the last century there were three countries that used concentration camps. We were one of them. I'll let you figure out who the other two were.

Internment camps were used in the US, a sad time, but nothing compared to actual CONCENTRATION & EXTERMINATION camps. The fallacies employed to attack FDR are appalling.
Extermination camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indeed.

 

[Artevelde]

The original thread suggested that some sort of "right wing" cabal prevented FDR from dealing with Nazi Germany. The notion is ludicrous and is indicative of the lack of historic perspective in the union based education system. Elitist rich FDR might not have been good for much else with a "C" average in college but he was a consummate politician who even married his gangly boyish looking cousin to gain some political points with his famous cousin Teddy Roosevelt.

The anti Roosevelt members of Congress did much to keep the country mired in economic collapse, and did NOT want the US involved in the war in Europe.

This really is a very simplistic and ignorant assertion. First of all, FDR himself didn't want the US involved in Europe. And second, accusing political opponents of FDR that they were somehow trying to destroy the US economy is a sign of political intolerance and lack of respect for democratic politics.

 

[Unkotare]

FDR was a great President.

He was a disaster.

 

[Artevelde]

Ummm, actually yes we did. In the first part of the last century there were three countries that used concentration camps. We were one of them. I'll let you figure out who the other two were.

Internment camps were used in the US, a sad time, but nothing compared to actual CONCENTRATION & EXTERMINATION camps. The fallacies employed to attack FDR are appalling.
Extermination camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The legal process that created them was the same peach. Tens of thousands of Japanese died in them just as surely as millions of Jews, gypsy's, homosexuals and other "non-desirables" died in the German and Soviet camps. The only difference is that of scale. There weren't that many Japanese to put into the camps and that is what kept the death count low. I've never run the numbers but if a audit were done I would not be surprised to see the death rate of the Japanese in our CONCENTRATION CAMPS was much lower than what occured in Germany. Nothing comes close to what the Soviets did though.

Well that's not exactly true, I forgot to include the Chinese "Culteral Revolution" in my first post. So we are one of four socialist countries to place its citizens in CONCENTRATION CAMPS AGAINST THEIR WILL UNDER FORCE OF LAW.

You see peach, history is important for people to know. Hopefully it prevents repeats. Sadly the rulers we have don't want you to l;earn history...I wonder why that is?

First of all there is a fundamental difference between the extermination camps (Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec and Maidanek) and concentration camps. The purpose of the first was mass-killing, exclusively and as a quasi-industrial process. The purpose of the second varied from regime to regime. It is entirely conceivable that the death rate in Soviet Gulags was higher than in Nazi concentration camps, but not than in Nazi extermination camps.
And to somehow equate the internment camps in the US and other countries with the Nazi or Soviet concentration camps is intellectually dishonest and false.

 

[Artevelde]

FDR was a great President.

He was a disaster.

I disagree.

 

[Artevelde]

We should have been allies with nazi Germany against the USSR.

But the globalist/zog cabal in our government ran the show and pushed their agenda forward and America lost out.

Everything OK there in your parallel universe?

 

[Artevelde]

Internment camps were used in the US, a sad time, but nothing compared to actual CONCENTRATION & EXTERMINATION camps. The fallacies employed to attack FDR are appalling.
Extermination camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The legal process that created them was the same peach. Tens of thousands of Japanese died in them just as surely as millions of Jews, gypsy's, homosexuals and other "non-desirables" died in the German and Soviet camps. The only difference is that of scale. There weren't that many Japanese to put into the camps and that is what kept the death count low. I've never run the numbers but if a audit were done I would not be surprised to see the death rate of the Japanese in our CONCENTRATION CAMPS was much lower than what occured in Germany. Nothing comes close to what the Soviets did though.

Well that's not exactly true, I forgot to include the Chinese "Culteral Revolution" in my first post. So we are one of four socialist countries to place its citizens in CONCENTRATION CAMPS AGAINST THEIR WILL UNDER FORCE OF LAW.

You see peach, history is important for people to know. Hopefully it prevents repeats. Sadly the rulers we have don't want you to l;earn history...I wonder why that is?

The Soviet camps were termed GULAGS. Solzhenitsyn wrote about them. The Japanese were responsible for millions of deaths in the invasion of China also. The strange diversion from Fascism is troubling. al Qaeda is FASCIST, not socialist, yet this thread is turned into post WW II communist atrocities.

The worst Soviet atrocities occured before and during WWII, not afterwards.

 

[Artevelde]

As the FAR right decided to ignore Hitler, FDR was initiating Lend Lease, or perhaps you missed that in your "studies".

Oh, you mean in his quest to support Josef Stalin, who butchered 10 to 12 times as many people as Hitler?

Real fucking humanitarian there...

I agree that Stalin was every bit as much a mass murderder as Hitler. And depending on how you do the math you might even conceivable claim Stalin killed more people than Hitler. But no amount of juggling with the math gets you to Stalin killing 10 to 12 times more people than Hitler, that's simply a stupid exaggeration.

 

[Unkotare]

And to somehow equate the internment camps in the US and other countries with the Nazi or Soviet concentration camps is intellectually dishonest and false.

As is using comparison with European "extermination camps" as a means of diminishing the utter outrage of the US government rounding up over 100,000 innocent, loyal US citizens and residents and throwing them into concentration camps.

 

[Unkotare]

FDR was a great President.

He was a disaster.

I disagree.

His meddling and 'engineering' prolonged the Great Depression in the US and around the world, he threatened significantly the separation of powers upon which our government rests, he gathered more power for a longer time to himself than any other US President, he committed an unforgiveable outrage against US CITIZENS, and saddled the country with obligations we now know are unsustainable.

A disaster.

 

[Unkotare]

depending on how you do the math you might even conceivable claim Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

There is no question that he did, by a far margin.

 

[Artevelde]

depending on how you do the math you might even conceivable claim Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

There is no question that he did, by a far margin.

I would tend to agree that Stalin probably murdered more people than Hitler, but the math is not so straigthforward as you make it seem.

 

[midcan5]

It is a curious fact of history that the right wing in this nation is still fighting FDR. One wonders why until one considers that Franklin created a world in which America prospered for nearly fifty years. Their fight against social security still goes on - one of America's greatest accomplishments - even after they almost crashed the economy the second time, SS kept millions of Americans from the food lines of the thirties. FDR should be smiling wherever he is for the right still cries over his work. The corporate stooges will always fight whatever helps all the people.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/186726-republican-ideology-through-history-7.html#post4251322

 

[Sunni Man]

As is using comparison with European "extermination camps" as a means of diminishing the utter outrage of the US government rounding up over 100,000 innocent, loyal US citizens and residents and throwing them into concentration camps.

Obviously, these Japs were neither "innocent" or "loyal", and that's why they needed to be locked up.