abortions the real choice

[Jon]

And again, Care, why is it the MAN'S responsibility? It takes 2 seconds to check to see if your partner is wearing protection. If women stopped relying on men, and men stopped relying on women, we wouldn't run into these problems as much.

do you know of any birth control method that women can use to stop the spread of disease AS YOU MENTIONED.

Yes, abstinence. But I understand that some people just can't keep their legs closed or their dicks in their pants. The least they can do is make sure they are using protection, but I guess that's asking too much, in your opinion.

 

[JBeukema]

LOOK at what I put in BOLD of YOUR statement, that I was answering my post to.....IT WAS YOU that mentioned the spread of disease.... and THE ONLY WAY to stop such is for the MAN to always use a rubber...

Condoms can't stop hpv or certain other diseases, which can be spread by skin contact around the pubic region.

 

[Gunny]

No, I think that people (not just women) should be taught responsibility. One part of responsibility is practicing safe sex. It is irresponsible to have unsafe sex. It leads to more than unwanted pregnancy. But allowing abortions sends the message that unsafe sex is fine because society allows you to wash your hands of any "mistakes." It's the wrong message. We're giving kids the motivation to engage in sex earlier and with fewer precautions. We're allowing the spread of disease and opening the door to more self-esteem issues on a group of young adults that already have more pressures than any of us ever faced.
As was mentioned: abstinence works, if you practice it. Other forms of birth control are more than 90% effective; again, if you use them. The less than 10% risk you take on by engaging in sexual activity is just that: a risk. Don't want to take the risk? Practice abstinence. Want to take the risk? Prepare for the consequences. That's why it's called a risk. Now there is no risk. If people aren't going to take responsibility in something as important as this, why should we trust them to be responsible in any other aspects of their lives?

there is no birthcontrol that women can take or use that prevents disease, so i guess the final answer is that MEN should ALWAYS use a rubber, this boils down to men using protection, not women taking a pill, no?

so, if people are not going to be abstinent then the MAN must use a rubber. the woman can use bc too for her own security as well, but the man must always use a rubber so not to pass disease...

I disagree. It might boil down to the man wearing the condom, but the responsibility to ensure he has it on is a shared one. The woman is the one that will suffer from the end result if the man does not wear it either through getting pregnant or contracting an STD.

Isn't this supposed to be all about "choice"? The woman has the choice of behaving responsibly or not and since the end result happens to HER, I think the onus is more on her to protect her own body than it is the man.

Granted, ideally, the man would be as concerned, but that's assuming a loving relationship. Most younger guys will not act responsibly in a casual sexual encounter. And again, when he disappears out the door forever, the woman is stuck.

If positions were reversed and the man could get pregnant, I'd say the onus was on him for the ultimate responsibility for his own body. And, men should behave responsibly about some woman giving him an STD. That's not a one way street.

 

[Gunny]

LOOK at what I put in BOLD of YOUR statement, that I was answering my post to.....IT WAS YOU that mentioned the spread of disease.... and THE ONLY WAY to stop such is for the MAN to always use a rubber...

Condoms can't stop hpv or certain other diseases, which can be spread by skin contact around the pubic region.

Agreed. I mean face it, the only foolproof method is abstinence. Not a very reality-based one though.

I think hitting the shower and using antibacterial soap immediately after sex is recommended nowadays. Still not foolproof, but better than nothing.

 

[JBeukema]

Well, Gunny, if someone's not an idiot and actually uses their brain when thinking about whom to sleep with, it sure does help- agreed?

 

[Gunny]

Well, Gunny, if someone's not an idiot and actually uses their brain when thinking about whom to sleep with, it sure does help- agreed?

Agreed. I'm just going out on that limb and saying that works. Especially when drugs and/or alcohol become involved along with youthful hormones. Good judgment would be the preferred option.

I know when they first isolated herpes it was bad enough. Then they came up with HIV and I didn't even want to look at women for fear of catching something. I just can't imagine being willing to sacrifice my life for sex. While it's close to the top of the list, it ain't THAT good.

 

[Care4all]

No, I think that people (not just women) should be taught responsibility. One part of responsibility is practicing safe sex. It is irresponsible to have unsafe sex. It leads to more than unwanted pregnancy. But allowing abortions sends the message that unsafe sex is fine because society allows you to wash your hands of any "mistakes." It's the wrong message. We're giving kids the motivation to engage in sex earlier and with fewer precautions. We're allowing the spread of disease and opening the door to more self-esteem issues on a group of young adults that already have more pressures than any of us ever faced.
As was mentioned: abstinence works, if you practice it. Other forms of birth control are more than 90% effective; again, if you use them. The less than 10% risk you take on by engaging in sexual activity is just that: a risk. Don't want to take the risk? Practice abstinence. Want to take the risk? Prepare for the consequences. That's why it's called a risk. Now there is no risk. If people aren't going to take responsibility in something as important as this, why should we trust them to be responsible in any other aspects of their lives?

there is no birthcontrol that women can take or use that prevents disease, so i guess the final answer is that MEN should ALWAYS use a rubber, this boils down to men using protection, not women taking a pill, no?

so, if people are not going to be abstinent then the MAN must use a rubber. the woman can use bc too for her own security as well, but the man must always use a rubber so not to pass disease...

I disagree. It might boil down to the man wearing the condom, but the responsibility to ensure he has it on is a shared one. The woman is the one that will suffer from the end result if the man does not wear it either through getting pregnant or contracting an STD.

Isn't this supposed to be all about "choice"? The woman has the choice of behaving responsibly or not and since the end result happens to HER, I think the onus is more on her to protect her own body than it is the man.

Granted, ideally, the man would be as concerned, but that's assuming a loving relationship. Most younger guys will not act responsibly in a casual sexual encounter. And again, when he disappears out the door forever, the woman is stuck.

If positions were reversed and the man could get pregnant, I'd say the onus was on him for the ultimate responsibility for his own body. And, men should behave responsibly about some woman giving him an STD. That's not a one way street.

I think if men are going to bitch about women getting pregnant and having abortions as they do on this board all the time, then these men should put up or shut up....use a condom, all the time...or you all have no room to talk the big talk about what WOMEN should do.....sorry, but it gets a little anoying when all these men complain about this and never seem to think that THEY are even part of the problem.

care

 

[Jon]

I think if men are going to bitch about women getting pregnant and having abortions as they do on this board all the time, then these men should put up or shut up....use a condom, all the time...or you all have no room to talk the big talk about what WOMEN should do.....sorry, but it gets a little anoying when all these men complain about this and never seem to think that THEY are even part of the problem.

care

Typical. Again, blaming MEN. It's all MEN'S fault if women get pregnant or STD's. At least, that seems to be your opinion. But if a MAN gets a woman pregnant and wants to keep the baby, the women can abort with the man's approval. If the woman wants to keep the child and the man doesn't, she can force him to pay child support.

It's the typical "victim" mentality that women have played forever. If you want equality, act fucking equal. Take responsibility and stop shifting blame and expecting men to fix all your problems for you.

Ironically, your little speech was the exact opposite of what Gunny said. He said that responsibility is a TWO WAY STREET. Men and women are EQUALLY responsible for ensuring that sex is done responsibly. If a man doesn't wear a condom, it's just as much the girl's fault as it is his. Like I've said, it's not that hard for a woman to check.

 

[Gunny]

there is no birthcontrol that women can take or use that prevents disease, so i guess the final answer is that MEN should ALWAYS use a rubber, this boils down to men using protection, not women taking a pill, no?

so, if people are not going to be abstinent then the MAN must use a rubber. the woman can use bc too for her own security as well, but the man must always use a rubber so not to pass disease...

I disagree. It might boil down to the man wearing the condom, but the responsibility to ensure he has it on is a shared one. The woman is the one that will suffer from the end result if the man does not wear it either through getting pregnant or contracting an STD.

Isn't this supposed to be all about "choice"? The woman has the choice of behaving responsibly or not and since the end result happens to HER, I think the onus is more on her to protect her own body than it is the man.

Granted, ideally, the man would be as concerned, but that's assuming a loving relationship. Most younger guys will not act responsibly in a casual sexual encounter. And again, when he disappears out the door forever, the woman is stuck.

If positions were reversed and the man could get pregnant, I'd say the onus was on him for the ultimate responsibility for his own body. And, men should behave responsibly about some woman giving him an STD. That's not a one way street.

I think if men are going to bitch about women getting pregnant and having abortions as they do on this board all the time, then these men should put up or shut up....use a condom, all the time...or you all have no room to talk the big talk about what WOMEN should do.....sorry, but it gets a little anoying when all these men complain about this and never seem to think that THEY are even part of the problem.

care

If you read my post, I obviously DO think the man is part of the problem. He's the part of the problem that doesn't get pregnant. He also has NO rights nor say in what happens to that child. Only the woman does. He either pays for an abortion, or he pays for the rest of his life, or at least to age 18.

The woman is the one that has to make the ultimate decision and while I am aware there are exceptions, I can't imagine it's an easy decision to have to make. And you are advocating that your average horndog man should be the one responsible for making sure he has a condom?

Her body. She suffers the consequences. She has the ultimate say in whether or not to have an abortion. She should be equally ultimately responsible for ensuring to the best of her ability that unwanted pregnancy doesn't happen. Again, it isn't going to happen to him.

In a perfect world, yes, both are equally responsible. This isn't a perfect world.

 

[Dis]

I think if men are going to bitch about women getting pregnant and having abortions as they do on this board all the time, then these men should put up or shut up....use a condom, all the time...or you all have no room to talk the big talk about what WOMEN should do.....sorry, but it gets a little anoying when all these men complain about this and never seem to think that THEY are even part of the problem.

care

Typical. Again, blaming MEN. It's all MEN'S fault if women get pregnant or STD's. At least, that seems to be your opinion. But if a MAN gets a woman pregnant and wants to keep the baby, the women can abort with the man's approval. If the woman wants to keep the child and the man doesn't, she can force him to pay child support.

It's the typical "victim" mentality that women have played forever. If you want equality, act fucking equal. Take responsibility and stop shifting blame and expecting men to fix all your problems for you.

Ironically, your little speech was the exact opposite of what Gunny said. He said that responsibility is a TWO WAY STREET. Men and women are EQUALLY responsible for ensuring that sex is done responsibly. If a man doesn't wear a condom, it's just as much the girl's fault as it is his. Like I've said, it's not that hard for a woman to check.

In theory it's an equal responsibility if you're only discussing STD's.

In reality, when it comes right down to it, total responsibility for the womans body is hers. She's the one that gets pregnant. She's the one that carries the baby. She's the one that gives birth. If she doesn't want to do any of those things, she'd damned well better make sure she's got all her bases covered.

 

[Gunny]

I think if men are going to bitch about women getting pregnant and having abortions as they do on this board all the time, then these men should put up or shut up....use a condom, all the time...or you all have no room to talk the big talk about what WOMEN should do.....sorry, but it gets a little anoying when all these men complain about this and never seem to think that THEY are even part of the problem.

care

Typical. Again, blaming MEN. It's all MEN'S fault if women get pregnant or STD's. At least, that seems to be your opinion. But if a MAN gets a woman pregnant and wants to keep the baby, the women can abort with the man's approval. If the woman wants to keep the child and the man doesn't, she can force him to pay child support.

It's the typical "victim" mentality that women have played forever. If you want equality, act fucking equal. Take responsibility and stop shifting blame and expecting men to fix all your problems for you.

Ironically, your little speech was the exact opposite of what Gunny said. He said that responsibility is a TWO WAY STREET. Men and women are EQUALLY responsible for ensuring that sex is done responsibly. If a man doesn't wear a condom, it's just as much the girl's fault as it is his. Like I've said, it's not that hard for a woman to check.

In theory it's an equal responsibility if you're only discussing STD's.

In reality, when it comes right down to it, total responsibility for the womans body is hers. She's the one that gets pregnant. She's the one that carries the baby. She's the one that gives birth. If she doesn't want to do any of those things, she'd damned well better make sure she's got all her bases covered.

I agree, but I will caveat it with the fact that I DO agree with care as far as those guys who are NOT responsible. No whining. We all KNOW the deal. Get a woman pregnant and you have no say in whether or not she keeps the baby and you better plan on paying for whichever decision she chooses.

So, while the man can't get pregnant, he's going to suffer one way or the other as a result of irresponsible behavior.

And I think knowingly passing on an STD by not informing the other person calls for castration or sewing up the hole. That's just wrong. In all seriousness, there should be some time in the slam to go with that.

 

[Care4all]

I realize times are different now, but in the "old" days, when a guy got a girl pregnant, he knew he would have to marry her... in fact, most married couples having a child within the first year of marriage, had their child within the first 7 months of marriage, in the fifties, I had read. So, it isn't like these men and women of the fifties were not having sex themselves....before marriage?

But it does seem to me, that men WERE more responsible back then when it came to their children or children to be and this was because it was FROWNED upon by society to get your girl or any girl pregnant and walk.

Now, we have near 45% of all children born in America today, born to single mothers...I can't imagine what the statistic would be if all of the women aborting cuz the man walked, decided to go through the pregnancy let alone ALL single women that aborted regardless of their situation being added to the statistic as well...we would probably be as high as 70% of all children born in the united states, are born to single women. Back in the 50's it was about 10% being born to single mothers.

What happend to change this sense of responsibility to your child?

Now, that 45% of the women that did get pregnant and according to prolifers...did the right thing and had their babies, ARE the same women so many complain about that are getting welfare of some sort, to help them get along, for the most part.

Seems to me, that many women are holding up to their once 'part of the bargain' and when they got pregnant, they kept their babies, even knowing they were going to have to go it alone...

WHERE are the MEN, where are many of the men that fathered these children and where is their sense of responsibility in these situations?

I guess most all of this puzzles me....and appears as though IT IS a major problem on the MAN'S PART in these unwanted pregnancy crisis' as well...and not as a second thought or an equal in the guilt, but something more than just that...imo, especially looking at statistics and where the trends have lead.

Much of this comes in to play in the black community, but other communities as well.

I am saying, there is more to this discussion than merely closing ones legs or keeping a zipper zipped if you don't use protection crapola, and no one ever wants to address those aspects that centrally stand in the middle of a realistic and true abortion/ unwed mother debate, in my opinion. And pointing fingers is not what i mean to do, as it may appear that I am picking on the men of today....but to ignore it? and not make it a focus of just ONE of these ABORTION debates?

this just could be the problem of the world today....EVERYONE wants to skirt their own responsibility or gender's responsibility and point fingers elsewhere or demand certain behavior of others etc etc etc. and not really themselves....or themselves as a second thought.... is a bit much for me.

care

 

[JBeukema]

I think if men are going to bitch about women getting pregnant and having abortions as they do on this board all the time, then these men should put up or shut up....use a condom, all the time...or you all have no room to talk the big talk about what WOMEN should do.....

Check for a condom or stfu. If you're going to bitch about men busting inside of you, then look before you spread your legs

sorry, but it gets a little annoying when all these women complain about this and never seem to think that THEY are even part of the problem.

In theory it's an equal responsibility if you're only discussing STD's.

Nope. Pregnancy to. A man can do one thing: wear a condom. That's it. Women can check for a rubber and use foam and/or take the pill or get a cervical cap or get the rods... The women has many more opportunities to prevent pregnancy in the first place- if she fails, then she needs to own up to it and stop blaming everyone else.

In reality, when it comes right down to it, total responsibility for the womans body is hers.

yet it's the man fault she gets knocked uop?

She's the one that gets pregnant. She's the one that carries the baby. She's the one that gives birth. If she doesn't want to do any of those things, she'd damned well better make sure she's got all her bases covered.

and if she fails to be responsible before getting pregnant, she needs to step up and taker care of her child.

I realize times are different now, but in the "old" days, when a guy got a girl pregnant, he knew he would have to marry her... in fact, most married couples having a child within the first year of marriage, had their child within the first 7 months of marriage, in the fifties, I had read. So, it isn't like these men and women of the fifties were not having sex themselves....before marriage?

But it does seem to me, that men WERE more responsible back then when it came to their children or children to be and this was because it was FROWNED upon by society to get your girl or any girl pregnant and walk.

That was because at the time America held conservative values dear- before liberals and libertines made any sense of morality or responsibility anathema

Now, we have near 45% of all children born in America today, born to single mothers...I can't imagine what the statistic would be if all of the women aborting cuz the man walked, decided to go through the pregnancy let alone ALL single women that aborted regardless of their situation being added to the statistic as well...we would probably be as high as 70% of all children born in the united states, are born to single women. Back in the 50's it was about 10% being born to single mothers.

What happend to change this sense of responsibility to your child?

Idiots like you declared war on responsibility

WHERE are the MEN, where are many of the men that fathered these children and where is their sense of responsibility in these situations?

See above.

I guess most all of this puzzles me....and appears as though IT IS a major problem on the MAN'S PART in these unwanted pregnancy crisis' as well...and not as a second thought or an equal in the guilt, but something more than just that...imo, especially looking at statistics and where the trends have lead.

A lot of those women have no idea who the father is because they're whores who dn't know how many guys they've banged and were too stupid to take the pill or check for a rubber.

Much of this comes in to play in the black community, but other communities as well.

Why should they be responsible? The liberal nanny state will take care of everything. Libtards are too stupid to realize that they're the biggest part of the problem.

 

[Neser Boha]

It's no surprise that you can't actually respond to the comments against your bullshit feminist arguments.

Oh that was an argument? Oh I'm sorry... I guess it was so well disguised as BULLSHIT that I couldn't even recognize it...

 

[We Are They]

JB, your posts about sex might be a little more informed if you had ever gotten any.
And you sound like you'd be comfortable with a morality police roaming the streets, like in saudi arabia and elsewhere. Imposing your moral standards on everyone else is condescending and communist.


Good post Care: guys, wear a condom or stfu.

 

[Ravi]

No, I think that people (not just women) should be taught responsibility. One part of responsibility is practicing safe sex. It is irresponsible to have unsafe sex. It leads to more than unwanted pregnancy. But allowing abortions sends the message that unsafe sex is fine because society allows you to wash your hands of any "mistakes." It's the wrong message. We're giving kids the motivation to engage in sex earlier and with fewer precautions. We're allowing the spread of disease and opening the door to more self-esteem issues on a group of young adults that already have more pressures than any of us ever faced.

As was mentioned: abstinence works, if you practice it. Other forms of birth control are more than 90% effective; again, if you use them. The less than 10% risk you take on by engaging in sexual activity is just that: a risk. Don't want to take the risk? Practice abstinence. Want to take the risk? Prepare for the consequences. That's why it's called a risk. Now there is no risk. If people aren't going to take responsibility in something as important as this, why should we trust them to be responsible in any other aspects of their lives?

Here's some advice. Don't have unsafe sex. That way you'll have full control of your reproductive choice.

 

[Gunny]

JB, your posts about sex might be a little more informed if you had ever gotten any.
And you sound like you'd be comfortable with a morality police roaming the streets, like in saudi arabia and elsewhere. Imposing your moral standards on everyone else is condescending and communist.


Good post Care: guys, wear a condom or stfu.

Did I miss something? I don't recall seeing where JB stated anything about wanting morality police. He stated it as a response to a question and is quite correct. Society, people and individuals as a whole held themselves more responsible for their actions back then.

And what is the bottom line here? Individual responsibility, is it not? We as a society, people and individuals have made an art form of not accepting responsibility for our actions. Abortion itself is just a means of escaping the consequences of one's irresponsible behavior. When abortion wasn't really a mainstream option, men had no choice but step up. Not doing so would bring the enmity of their peers down on them. It no longer does so.

At the same time, while people were still having sex back then, it wasn't as casual and the FEMALES in general didn't feel the need to spread their legs so quickly to be accepted by some guy.

I've made logical arguments from BOTH POVs. The reason is simple ... if individuals behave responsibly, the whole will take care of itself. The male has reason to fear getting a woman pregnant every bit as much as the woman should fear getting pregnant, and EACH should feel solely responsible.

The bottom line though, no matter the reasoning and arguing and namecalling anyone wants to toss out is that in the end, the guy ain't pregnant ... the woman is. That's not just HIS fault.

And btw ... wearing a condom is no more a guarantee against pregnancy than the pill, foam, IUD or whatever. The more precautions taken, the more the chance of pregnancy is lessened. In that regard, JB is also quite correct. Women have FAR more options available than a man does.

 

[Dis]

I think if men are going to bitch about women getting pregnant and having abortions as they do on this board all the time, then these men should put up or shut up....use a condom, all the time...or you all have no room to talk the big talk about what WOMEN should do.....

Check for a condom or stfu. If you're going to bitch about men busting inside of you, then look before you spread your legs

sorry, but it gets a little annoying when all these women complain about this and never seem to think that THEY are even part of the problem.

In theory it's an equal responsibility if you're only discussing STD's.

Nope. Pregnancy to. A man can do one thing: wear a condom. That's it. Women can check for a rubber and use foam and/or take the pill or get a cervical cap or get the rods... The women has many more opportunities to prevent pregnancy in the first place- if she fails, then she needs to own up to it and stop blaming everyone else.



yet it's the man fault she gets knocked uop?



and if she fails to be responsible before getting pregnant, she needs to step up and taker care of her child.




That was because at the time America held conservative values dear- before liberals and libertines made any sense of morality or responsibility anathema




Idiots like you declared war on responsibility





See above.

I guess most all of this puzzles me....and appears as though IT IS a major problem on the MAN'S PART in these unwanted pregnancy crisis' as well...and not as a second thought or an equal in the guilt, but something more than just that...imo, especially looking at statistics and where the trends have lead.

A lot of those women have no idea who the father is because they're whores who dn't know how many guys they've banged and were too stupid to take the pill or check for a rubber.

Much of this comes in to play in the black community, but other communities as well.

Why should they be responsible? The liberal nanny state will take care of everything. Libtards are too stupid to realize that they're the biggest part of the problem.

I know it's early, I'm still sick, and I haven't had my coffee yet, but the little comment in bold annoyed me.

Where the HELL did I say anything of the sort, JB? *I* place more of the responsibility on the female than I do the man. I have never ONCE even implied it's a man's fault a woman gets pregnant.

 

[We Are They]

"That was because at the time America held conservative values dear- before liberals and libertines made any sense of morality or responsibility anathema "
"Idiots like you declared war on responsibility"
"Why should they be responsible? The liberal nanny state will take care of everything. Libtards are too stupid to realize that they're the biggest part of the problem."

Is that enough Gunny? And that's only from the one post.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, I think that people (not just women) should be taught responsibility. One part of responsibility is practicing safe sex. It is irresponsible to have unsafe sex. It leads to more than unwanted pregnancy. But allowing abortions sends the message that unsafe sex is fine because society allows you to wash your hands of any "mistakes." It's the wrong message. We're giving kids the motivation to engage in sex earlier and with fewer precautions. We're allowing the spread of disease and opening the door to more self-esteem issues on a group of young adults that already have more pressures than any of us ever faced.

As was mentioned: abstinence works, if you practice it. Other forms of birth control are more than 90% effective; again, if you use them. The less than 10% risk you take on by engaging in sexual activity is just that: a risk. Don't want to take the risk? Practice abstinence. Want to take the risk? Prepare for the consequences. That's why it's called a risk. Now there is no risk. If people aren't going to take responsibility in something as important as this, why should we trust them to be responsible in any other aspects of their lives?

Here's some advice. Don't have unsafe sex. That way you'll have full control of your reproductive choice.

No guarantees with any birth control. Two of my kids were conceived using "safe sex" and my best friend was on the pill (and never missed a dose).

You don't want to get pregnant? Don't have sex.