abortions the real choice

[AllieBaba]

scott peterson WAS NOT charged with double murder, to set the story straight....i repeat was not charged with double murder.

"REDWOOD CITY, Calif. - A judge on Wednesday sentenced Scott Peterson to die for the murder of his wife and their unborn child, upholding a jury's recommendation and describing the murders as "cruel, uncaring, heartless and callous."

Note the use of the plural.

Scott Peterson sentenced to death - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

On Monday, Scott Lee Peterson, 32, was sentenced to death by lethal injection or lethal gas for murdering his wife, Laci Denise Peterson, 27, and her eight-month-old foetus, named Conner. Charged separately for the murder of the foetus, he will get 15 years to life.
Let him die | World news | The Guardian

 

[JBeukema]

*cough*

Fetuses aren't sentient beings either.

Some would argue that they're not even alive.

Only stupid people who don't understand what 'processes define life.

JB, you must be a trekkie or something

A what?


fetuses aren't sentient beings, no they're not, agreed. But meat eaters eat babies of other species, and probably a lot of animals that were pregnant too[/quote]

What does an earlier pregnancy have to do with anything?

so it's hypocritical for them to argue against abortion.

No, it's not. You're just stupid.

As for the eggs, we're both half right on that, cuz if you didn't eat them, they could be fertilized.

So you have a new account? No, we're not and no, they can't unless human intervene. Fertilization occurs before the egg is laid.

JB, from you're other posts I would have thought that you were not a religious leaning person, boy was I wrong!

Once again you show how stupid you are. I have shown all the arguments to bew fallacious, and that is your retort?

.

"We have enough people. Why should I care if you shoot someone?

Someone kill Tofu- relax, he won't mind. there are too many people anyway"

Makes no fucking sense. Equating abortion with murdering an adult is infantile.

It makes perfect sense. You said that it didn't matter if we killed someone because there are too many people.

"then the abortion industry would lose money! "
You just argue any fucking side cuz you like to argue,

right... that's why I always argue the same line

"I look forward to your demonstration calling for bovine suffrage."
You're just another unscrupulous animal raper.

So now saying that cows are not people makes me an 'animal raper'? Nice ad hom, I love how you fail to address the point I made. You fail again.

God forbid we teach them not to make them in the first place.
God forbid we refer to children as "mistakes".
God forbid we negate the "choice" of those with money and power
God forbid we allow that those who don't look like us or have voices to defend themselves be allowed to be considered before we "fix our mistakes".

Mark the date and time! JB agrees with Allie on something

 

[Care4all]

scott peterson WAS NOT charged with double murder, to set the story straight....i repeat was not charged with double murder.

"REDWOOD CITY, Calif. - A judge on Wednesday sentenced Scott Peterson to die for the murder of his wife and their unborn child, upholding a jury's recommendation and describing the murders as "cruel, uncaring, heartless and callous."

Note the use of the plural.

Scott Peterson sentenced to death - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

On Monday, Scott Lee Peterson, 32, was sentenced to death by lethal injection or lethal gas for murdering his wife, Laci Denise Peterson, 27, and her eight-month-old foetus, named Conner. Charged separately for the murder of the foetus, he will get 15 years to life.
Let him die | World news | The Guardian

under California law, he was charged with Murder and for the killing of his unborn child.

but under California law, if lacey had not been killed also and he had just killed the fetus, he could not be charged with the murder of conner.

This is WHY our congress went bazerk over it and a whole issue of the Conner law, that congress passed, was crucial...

so, yes, i misspoke allie....but if lacey had not been killed also, then conner would not have been ''murdered'', was my understanding of the california laws in place at the time of his charge.

 

[JBeukema]

but under California law, if lacey had not been killed also and he had just killed the fetus, he could not be charged with the murder of conner.

That makes no sense

 

[Care4all]

but under California law, if lacey had not been killed also and he had just killed the fetus, he could not be charged with the murder of conner.

That makes no sense

ok, here is where i say, "I don't understand it"....do a google and read the gobbledygook about the California laws on this....my head is spinning....maybe it has to do with giving him the dealth penalty and what they needed to do such....???

he was found guilty of second degree murder, feticide, for Conner and not first degree murder, yet lacy was first degree murder? maybe you or someone else can explain it if you get in to researching it....i think it is above my head to understand it....

 

[JBeukema]

I'm saying it makes no sense if he's punished differently for the child's death depending on whether the mother dies...

 

[Ravi]

it is labeled a fetus from about 12 weeks through delivery....in the latter months of pregnancy, from 6 months on, the fetus is sentient or what i have thought of sentient, it is aware of its surroundings and it feels pain if cut or kicked or any of that....and it is viable outside of the womb with today's medicine and technology, from 6 months forward....we have one child on record that survived at 21 weeks gestation and after a long period in the hospital, went home with her mother.

That's interesting. What I think of as sentient is aware: 2: having or showing realization, perception, or knowledge. Some bozo claimed it was okay to eat cows because they aren't sentient...though of course they are to a degree. I don't think you could say a fetus shows realization, perception, or knowledge.

 

[Neser Boha]

Wow... you guys are still at it, huh...

It's pretty darn obvious by now that some of you have made up your minds and are never going to change it...

As a side note...

It's just kinda funny that those that seem to be most passionate against abortion are repubs/conservatives who so hate a big government that tells them what the fuck to do... It's you who should be clamoring for women's right to choose what the hell to do with her body. No, instead you'll be siding with the unborn baby */tearful trembling voice* ... How about this - first we take care of those that are already alive and out of a womb and then we worry about such things as zygotes, fetuses, eggs, and sperms?

What else is funny - men claiming that they have any right to tell women what to do with their bodies. When you have a uterus and the rest that goes with it, then you can open your pie-hole on the matter. Go fuck yourselves.

 

[We Are They]

"Some bozo claimed it was okay to eat cows because they aren't sentient"
Guess who? JB of course.

I won't even argue with you JB, you make no fucking sense at all, then you claim you win the argument, nice try. Now go put on your chewbakka outfit so you can go get your burger king star trek mug and a double whopper.

 

[Care4all]

it is labeled a fetus from about 12 weeks through delivery....in the latter months of pregnancy, from 6 months on, the fetus is sentient or what i have thought of sentient, it is aware of its surroundings and it feels pain if cut or kicked or any of that....and it is viable outside of the womb with today's medicine and technology, from 6 months forward....we have one child on record that survived at 21 weeks gestation and after a long period in the hospital, went home with her mother.

That's interesting. What I think of as sentient is aware: 2: having or showing realization, perception, or knowledge. Some bozo claimed it was okay to eat cows because they aren't sentient...though of course they are to a degree. I don't think you could say a fetus shows realization, perception, or knowledge.

i am not an expert, (nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn), nor am i someone who thinks animals are EQUAL to humans and i never will.....not because of the Bible, but because the evidence surrounds us, that WE ARE NOT the same.

if i ever had a child, my child would never, ever have the same worth as a cow....or a calf, or an American bald eagle or a pig or a dog or a cat though I love my cat as if she were part of our family.

Babies in their latter months, hear and feel....there is even proof that a newborn can recognize both mother and father's voices verses the voice of a stranger, with a reaction....showing that they hear in the womb.

The development of the brain is complete in the latter months of pregnancy and medical science shows that they REACT to pain due to the brain reacting to pain, equal to a newborn reacting to pain....they can NOT REACT to pain, if their brain was not developed to do such....which is the case with the first 2 trimesters....no pain....because the part of the brain that makes them aware of pain is not developed yet. (sorry to be so repetitive)

To me, this is sentient....it still may or may not be viable and die if delivered prematurely, but the fetus at this stage is no different than a newborn and feels....they are aware of themselves and react to outside pressures and interferences....medical science shows such and has proven such.

the reason why fetuses die, if delivered early in the last trimester is because their LUNGS are not completely developed to the level of a newborn's and we had been unable to deliver medicines to them to keep them alive until the lungs developed completely, primarily due to the overly large needles we had, but this changed a decade or so ago, where technology improved and needles were developed so tiny tiny tiny that we can administer to premature babies the drugs and food they need directly in to their tiny tiny tiny veins, is what I have read.

the late trimester brain in a fetus is equal to the brain of a newborn....no different.

If a fetus in the latter months is NOT sentient as some think, then a newborn baby is NOT sentient either, and we do not go and "off" the newborn if we feel like it.

care

 

[We Are They]

Care, you should try to respect ALL of god's creatures, not just some of them.

 

[Care4all]

Care, you should try to respect ALL of god's creatures, not just some of them.

I do respect Animals, but I have a God given brain that recognizes that we, are different than all other animals.

Animals are totally disrespected as many animal rights people claim, especially the inhumane way that we slaughter them....the exact opposite of how the Bible tells us to kill them for our food, which is with respect.....Kosher and the midrash.

 

[We Are They]

Care, you should try to respect ALL of god's creatures, not just some of them.

I do respect Animals, but I have a God given brain that recognizes that we, are different than all other animals.

Animals are totally disrespected as many animal rights people claim, especially the inhumane way that we slaughter them....the exact opposite of how the Bible tells us to kill them for our food, which is with respect.....Kosher.

Kosher!!! LOL, they cut the animals throat and hang it on a hook to drain all the blood, some respect. You respect animals but you eat them?

 

[Care4all]

Care, you should try to respect ALL of god's creatures, not just some of them.

I do respect Animals, but I have a God given brain that recognizes that we, are different than all other animals.

Animals are totally disrespected as many animal rights people claim, especially the inhumane way that we slaughter them....the exact opposite of how the Bible tells us to kill them for our food, which is with respect.....Kosher.

Kosher!!! LOL, they cut the animals throat and hang it on a hook to drain all the blood, some respect. You respect animals but you eat them?

yes, with respect....verses the slaughter house method.

Animals have NOTHING to do with this thread though and is just something to sidetrack the discussion we were having on abortion.

 

[We Are They]

Ok, I guess in your fantasy world cutting an animal's throat and hanging it on a hook to bleed to death is total respect. Me thinks you need to buy a dictionary.

 

[Care4all]

Ok, I guess in your fantasy world cutting an animal's throat and hanging it on a hook to bleed to death is total respect. Me thinks you need to buy a dictionary.

Are you a vegetarian WeAreThey?

 

[JBeukema]

It's just kinda funny that those that seem to be most passionate against abortion are repubs/conservatives who so hate a big government that tells them what the fuck to do... It's you who should be clamoring for women's right to choose what the hell to do with her body.

We're not talking about her body, you idiot. Now, go back to sniffing your armpits and thinking you can dance.

.r chewbakka.

Are you making up words again?

Care, you should try to respect ALL of god's creatures, not just some of them.

What to fairy tales have to do with anything?

Animals are totally disrespected as many animal rights people claim, especially the inhumane way that we slaughter them....the exact opposite of how the Bible tells us to kill them for our food, which is with respect.....Kosher.

t....verses the slaughter house method.

Animals have NOTHING to do with this thread though and is just something to sidetrack the discussion we were having on abortion.[/QUOTE]

Slaughter house is more humane. At least the captive bolt knocks them out so they don't feel any more pain afterward- or at least minimizes it.

 

[Care4all]

info on fetal development from Wikipedia:

26 to 38 weeks after fertilization
Artist's depiction of fetus at 38 weeks after fertilization, about 20 inches (51 cm) head to toe.

The amount of body fat rapidly increases. Lungs are not fully mature. Thalamic brain connections, which mediate sensory input, form. Bones are fully developed, but are still soft and pliable. Iron, calcium, and phosphorus become more abundant. Fingernails reach the end of the fingertips. The lanugo begins to disappear, until it is gone except on the upper arms and shoulders. Small breast buds are present on both sexes. Head hair becomes coarse and thicker. Birth is imminent and occurs around the 38th week. The fetus is considered full-term between weeks 35 and 40,[32] which means that the fetus is considered sufficiently developed for life outside the uterus.[33] It may be 48 to 53 cm (19 to 21 inches) in length, when born. Control of movement is limited at birth, and purposeful voluntary movements develop all the way until puberty.[34][35]

on viability:

The lower limit of viability is approximately five months gestational age, and usually later.[38] According to The Developing Human:
Human fetus, age unknown

Viability is defined as the ability of fetuses to survive in the extrauterine environment... There is no sharp limit of development, age, or weight at which a fetus automatically becomes viable or beyond which survival is assured, but experience has shown that it is rare for a baby to survive whose weight is less than 500 gm or whose fertilization age is less than 22 weeks. Even fetuses born between 26 and 28 weeks have difficulty surviving, mainly because the respiratory system and the central nervous system are not completely differentiated... If given expert postnatal care, some fetuses weighing less than 500 gm may survive; they are referred to as extremely low birth weight or immature infants.... Prematurity is one of the most common causes of morbidity and perinatal death.[39]

During the past several decades, neonatal care has improved with advances in medical science, and therefore the limit of viability has moved earlier.[40] As of 2006, the two youngest children to survive premature birth are thought to be James Elgin Gill (born on 20 May 1987 in Ottawa, Canada, at 21 weeks and 5 days gestational age),[41][42] and Amillia Taylor (born on 24 October 2006 in Miami, Florida, at 21 weeks and 6 days gestational age).[43][44] Both children were born just under 20 weeks from fertilization, or a few days past the midpoint of an average full-term pregnancy. Despite their premature births, both developed into healthy children.

 

[We Are They]

JB, you made 4 comments and none of them make any sense? Especially "Slaughter house is more humane". Using the word humane in the same sentence as slaughterhouse shows that you'll spout anything at all just to see yourself in print so you can pretend that you're right again.
You're possibly a glue sniffer as well.

 

[Care4all]

Ok, I guess in your fantasy world cutting an animal's throat and hanging it on a hook to bleed to death is total respect. Me thinks you need to buy a dictionary.

For your information on Midrash and Kosher:
Jewish Environmental Ethic

Animal Rights and General Respect for Nature


Respecting nature is a part of Judaism. Jewish commentator Jonathan Helfand wrote that although "the God of Genesis told man to subdue and master the earth in both content and spirit the Jewish tradition negates the arrogant proposal that the earth is man's unqualified dominion . As part of the divine plan of creation himself, man has the obligation to respect his inanimate and animate counterparts in the world" (1986, 39,45).
Although "Judaism consistently values human life more than animal life" (Solomon 1989, 17), all living things are to be respected. The Midrash says

Even things which one regards as superfluous in the world, such as flies, fleas, and mosquitoes, are included in the creation of the world, and the Holy One Blessed be He conveys His message with everything, even by means of a snake, even by means of a mosquito, even by means of a frog. ("Biology," Encyclopedia Judaica , year and author unknown, 1027)

Though we might not appreciate the need for certain animals--and some may even bother us--the Talmud declares that God "created nothing without a purpose" ("Biology," Encyclopedia Judaica , 1028).
Jewish respect for animals is embodied in this aggadic13 saying about Moses:

While our teacher Moses was tending the sheep of Jethro in the wilderness a kid ran away from him. He ran after it until it reached Hasuah. Upon reaching Hasuah it came upon a pool of water [whereupon] the kid stopped to drink. When Moses reached it he said, "I did not know that you were running because [you were] thirsty. You must be tired." He placed it on his shoulder and began to walk. The Holy One, blessed be He, said, "You are compassionate in leading the flocks belonging to mortals; I swear you will similarly shepherd my flock, Israel." (Midrash Rabbah, Shemot 2:2, quoted in Bleich 1986, 61)

Although he created animals for human use, the god of Judaism "at the same time laid upon [humankind] the obligation to respect and consider the feelings and needs of these lower creatures" (Revel, year unknown, 330). Laws governing animals and commanding Jews to respect them include Biblical prohibitions against acts such as having animals work on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10), muzzling animals while threshing (Deuteronomy 25:4), and yoking animals of two different species together. Rabbi Ibn Ezra explained that God gave this last commandment so that a stronger-pulling species wouldn't cause stress or discomfort to weaker ones. Another Biblical passage commands: if a "passing wayfarer sees an animal staggering under a burden too heavy for it [he] must stop and unload it, even though it belongs to his enemy (Exodus 23:5, as discussed by Revel, year unknown, 330).

Jewish treatment of animals shows compassion by following other Biblical prohibitions against "taking the young before sending away the mother bird (Deuteronomy 22:6-7) and killing an animal and its young on the same day (Leviticus 22:28)" (Jacobs, 1984, 175-176). The medieval commentator Nahmanides explained that these injunctions, in addition to being compassionate, are meant to help preserve species from extinction. This idea was echoed by the Sefer Ha-hinukh, which further states that "there is divine providence for each species and that God desires them to be perpetuated" (Helfand 1986, 45).

Post-biblical Jewish scripture requires feeding one's cattle before oneself (Bleich 1986, 63; Revel, 330) and eases Sabbath laws to allow rescuing injured animals or milking cows ("to ease their distress") on the Sabbath (Solomon 1989, 11). Force-feeding geese to increase the size or quality of their liver (Jacobs 1984, 176) and killing animals for pet food (Bleich 1986, 75) are unnecessary and cruel according to the rabbinic writings, and are therefore prohibited.

Jews are famous for , the extensive code of laws dictating the preparation of "kosher"14 food. An important element of kashrut is shehitah, the proper killing of animals in a way that inflicts the least amount of pain possible. To qualify as kosher, animals are killed "by a skilled and learned person who [knows] all the laws, never by a brutal slaughterer performing the task solely for the money" (Jacobs 1984, 133). A faithful Jew will not eat meat prepared any other way.

The rules for shehitah killing are detailed and many. Though not found in the Bible itself, these rules are in the sacred Talmud, which says they "were given by God to Moses at Sinai" (1984, 134-145). The rules of shehitah require humane treatment of animals before and during killing. For instance, knives used for killing must be finely sharpened, and even a tiny nick in a knife would mean animals killed by it aren't kosher, because it might tear while severing the animal's windpipe (1984, 135).

Jews recognize that even the most careful killing involves some cruelty, and for this reason many Jewish sects in the past have been vegetarians (Revel, 330), while today vegetarianism among Jews is increasingly popular (Solomon 1989, 12). Nevertheless, mainstream Judaism allows meat consumption as long as it inflicts minimal cruelty to animals. This minimum is achieved through shehitah, which "distinguished medical authorities have testified involves an almost immediate cessation of consciousness on the part of the animal, so that it is the most painless method of killing . One expert declared that he wished his own end might be as painless as that of an animal killed by shehitah" (Jacobs 1984, 135).

The combination of ancient Jewish teachings with modern environmental and animal rights issues has given rise to such organizations as the Society for the Protection of Nature and the Society for Animal Welfare (both in Israel), as well as the worldwide Jewish Vegetarian Society. The Jewish Vegetarian Society, which claims "some prominent rabbis as members," cites Genesis, particularly verse 29 of the first chapter which says that fruits, grains, and vegetables "to you shall be for food" (Rose 1989, 66-67).15