Abortion

[Bonnie]

MissileMan,

I can see that you truly believe your opinions on this matter...the only problem is that the truth flies in the face of those opinions...are you mature enough to change your opinions when the facts prove you wrong?

You keep going back to the priests guilty of pedophilia...ignoring, conviniently, that the vast majority of priests are NOT pedophiles. The vast majority of those in the priesthood are NOT guilty of abusing children because of their vows of celibacy, so using them as an example does not work.

It would be just as logical to say that having sex causes these crimes since people who HAVE SEX commit them.

You also need to look at history to show that our obsession with sex at earlier and earlier ages has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with societal pressures.

I agree with you that abstinence doesn't work...but you are 100% wrong when you attribute this failure to the unflinching power of the human sex drive rather than a society that tells its children not to have sex, while showing them more images of sex by the time they are 12 then people in the past saw in their entire lives.

Stating that "humans can't control themselves" is a cop-out...but worse than that...its a "cop-out" that has been thoroughly debunked. Men CAN be faithful their entire lives...Woman CAN cheat on their hubands, Priests CAN (in fact most ARE) be celibate and NOT be pedophiles, and Young People CAN wait to have sex.

Well said...........And I agree completely

 

[eric]

Stating that "humans can't control themselves" is a cop-out...but worse than that...its a "cop-out" that has been thoroughly debunked. Men CAN be faithful their entire lives...Woman CAN cheat on their hubands, Priests CAN (in fact most ARE) be celibate and NOT be pedophiles, and Young People CAN wait to have sex.

To think otherwise would be pure ignorance.

 

[KLSuddeth]

I can see that you truly believe your opinions on this matter...the only problem is that the truth flies in the face of those opinions...are you mature enough to change your opinions when the facts prove you wrong?

You keep going back to the priests guilty of pedophilia...ignoring, conviniently, that the vast majority of priests are NOT pedophiles. The vast majority of those in the priesthood are NOT guilty of abusing children because of their vows of celibacy, so using them as an example does not work.

It would be just as logical to say that having sex causes these crimes since people who HAVE SEX commit them.

You also need to look at history to show that our obsession with sex at earlier and earlier ages has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with societal pressures.

I agree with you that abstinence doesn't work...but you are 100% wrong when you attribute this failure to the unflinching power of the human sex drive rather than a society that tells its children not to have sex, while showing them more images of sex by the time they are 12 then people in the past saw in their entire lives.

Stating that "humans can't control themselves" is a cop-out...but worse than that...its a "cop-out" that has been thoroughly debunked. Men CAN be faithful their entire lives...Woman CAN cheat on their hubands, Priests CAN (in fact most ARE) be celibate and NOT be pedophiles, and Young People CAN wait to have sex.

 

[MissileMan]

MissileMan,

I can see that you truly believe your opinions on this matter...the only problem is that the truth flies in the face of those opinions...are you mature enough to change your opinions when the facts prove you wrong?

You keep going back to the priests guilty of pedophilia...ignoring, conviniently, that the vast majority of priests are NOT pedophiles. The vast majority of those in the priesthood are NOT guilty of abusing children because of their vows of celibacy, so using them as an example does not work.

It would be just as logical to say that having sex causes these crimes since people who HAVE SEX commit them.

You also need to look at history to show that our obsession with sex at earlier and earlier ages has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with societal pressures.

I agree with you that abstinence doesn't work...but you are 100% wrong when you attribute this failure to the unflinching power of the human sex drive rather than a society that tells its children not to have sex, while showing them more images of sex by the time they are 12 then people in the past saw in their entire lives.

Stating that "humans can't control themselves" is a cop-out...but worse than that...its a "cop-out" that has been thoroughly debunked. Men CAN be faithful their entire lives...Woman CAN cheat on their hubands, Priests CAN (in fact most ARE) be celibate and NOT be pedophiles, and Young People CAN wait to have sex.

Maybe in your perfect world, but reality is quite different. You want to pin all of your hopes of reducing abortions on the willpower of teenagers? We aren't talking about adults, but young, curious teens. Preaching abstinence without educating about contraception is like leaving a loaded gun on a table with a 10 year old. Just tell them that they must not ever touch it until they turn 18. Don't provide any additional information, and don't put a trigger guard on it. Just have faith that this child will leave it alone. Bad idea!

You might have a few teens make it to their wedding night before having sex. But unless you are prepared to lock kids away on some deserted island with no access to TV or movies or members of the opposite sex, the number of wedding night virgins is going to be a lot lower than non-virgins.

BTW, less than 100 years ago, you had 12 year olds getting married and starting families legally right here in the good ol' USA.

And I wasn't conveniently ignoring the fact that most priests do not molest children, merely arguing that if adults the like of priests, Jimmy Swaggart, Jess Jackson, Bill Clinton, et al, cannot control themselves, how in the hell can you assume that teenagers will be able to? "Just say no" might work for drugs and cigarettes, but I think you are naive to believe it will work for sex.

 

[dilloduck]

Maybe in your perfect world, but reality is quite different. You want to pin all of your hopes of reducing abortions on the willpower of teenagers? We aren't talking about adults, but young, curious teens. Preaching abstinence without educating about contraception is like leaving a loaded gun on a table with a 10 year old. Just tell them that they must not ever touch it until they turn 18. Don't provide any additional information, and don't put a trigger guard on it. Just have faith that this child will leave it alone. Bad idea!

You might have a few teens make it to their wedding night before having sex. But unless you are prepared to lock kids away on some deserted island with no access to TV or movies or members of the opposite sex, the number of wedding night virgins is going to be a lot lower than non-virgins.

BTW, less than 100 years ago, you had 12 year olds getting married and starting families legally right here in the good ol' USA.

And I wasn't conveniently ignoring the fact that most priests do not molest children, merely arguing that if adults the like of priests, Jimmy Swaggart, Jess Jackson, Bill Clinton, et al, cannot control themselves, how in the hell can you assume that teenagers will be able to? "Just say no" might work for drugs and cigarettes, but I think you are naive to believe it will work for sex.

ya wanna take away thier drivers' licenseses and voter cards too?

 

[Bonnie]

Maybe in your perfect world, but reality is quite different. You want to pin all of your hopes of reducing abortions on the willpower of teenagers? We aren't talking about adults, but young, curious teens. Preaching abstinence without educating about contraception is like leaving a loaded gun on a table with a 10 year old. Just tell them that they must not ever touch it until they turn 18. Don't provide any additional information, and don't put a trigger guard on it. Just have faith that this child will leave it alone. Bad idea!

You might have a few teens make it to their wedding night before having sex. But unless you are prepared to lock kids away on some deserted island with no access to TV or movies or members of the opposite sex, the number of wedding night virgins is going to be a lot lower than non-virgins.

BTW, less than 100 years ago, you had 12 year olds getting married and starting families legally right here in the good ol' USA.

And I wasn't conveniently ignoring the fact that most priests do not molest children, merely arguing that if adults the like of priests, Jimmy Swaggart, Jess Jackson, Bill Clinton, et al, cannot control themselves, how in the hell can you assume that teenagers will be able to? "Just say no" might work for drugs and cigarettes, but I think you are naive to believe it will work for sex.

Actually abstinence is not being taught, the mere mention of it anywhere near a public school is laughed right off the cirriculum. Additionally, some teens are going to drink, smoke, do drugs, and assault their teachers..........so do we just give up and say well kids are going to be kids lets just legalize it all so we show a more realistic, opne minded attitude as adults?????????/

 

[MissileMan]

Actually abstinence is not being taught, the mere mention of it anywhere near a public school is laughed right off the cirriculum. Additionally, some teens are going to drink, smoke, do drugs, and assault their teachers..........so do we just give up and say well kids are going to be kids lets just legalize it all so we show a more realistic, opne minded attitude as adults?????????/

That's not what I said at all. What I said was that just telling kids to wait until they are married to have sex is not going to work. I believe the "Just say no" program has had some success reducing tobacco and drug use in young people. I don't believe it will work effectively as a sex deterrent.

 

[MissileMan]

ya wanna take away thier drivers' licenseses and voter cards too?

Where have I said anything about taking anything away from anyone?

 

[dilloduck]

Where have I said anything about taking anything away from anyone?

Read your own posts----it's called taking away responsibilty by assuming them to be incompetent.

edit--BTW-did you ever wonder why God taught us all how to masturbate ?

 

[Bonnie]

That's not what I said at all. What I said was that just telling kids to wait until they are married to have sex is not going to work. I believe the "Just say no" program has had some success reducing tobacco and drug use in young people. I don't believe it will work effectively as a sex deterrent.

How do we know if it never gets a fair try?, actually I don't believe it's the schools place to teach morality, it is up to parents as ultimately they are responsible, however since the shcools have taken it upon themselves to do it, they should at least have abstinence as an option included in the course. To take such a defeatist attitude and just dismiss the concept as unrealisitic folly for weird religious people is completely unfair. You have to wonder why public shcools are so opposed to it, and I keep coming back to Planned Parenthood and other "wonderfull "life affirming organisations that have lobbeyed the teachers unions very sucessfully to remove abstinence, and whats worse to take away parents right to know if their daughters are even having abortions.............That is an abomination!

 

[Said1]

edit--BTW-did you ever wonder why God taught us all how to masturbate ?

You're on a roll today Bratty Bratson! But, are you sure it was God???

 

[deaddude]

I support the woman's right to choose under two circumstances.

1. Rape.

2. Carrying the child to term endangers the mother.

Otherwise I am a huge supporter of adoption. I have an adopted brother, and he is as much my family as my biological siblings. Adoption works fine.


Oh dillo isn’t there some biblical passage where God strikes a man dead for masturbating?

 

[dilloduck]

You're on a roll today Bratty Bratson! But, are you sure it was God???

It sure as hell wasn't my mom !!! :cof:

 

[Said1]

It sure as hell wasn't my mom !!! :cof:

Phew. Now back to topic.

 

[Bonnie]

Interesting turn Dillo

 

[MissileMan]

How do we know if it never gets a fair try?, actually I don't believe it's the schools place to teach morality, it is up to parents as ultimately they are responsible, however since the shcools have taken it upon themselves to do it, they should at least have abstinence as an option included in the course. To take such a defeatist attitude and just dismiss the concept as unrealisitic folly for weird religious people is completely unfair. You have to wonder why public shcools are so opposed to it, and I keep coming back to Planned Parenthood and other "wonderfull "life affirming organisations that have lobbeyed the teachers unions very sucessfully to remove abstinence, and whats worse to take away parents right to know if their daughters are even having abortions.............That is an abomination!

I never said that teaching abstinence was a bad idea, my point was that teaching only abstinence was. That in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies and thereby reduce abortions, sex education should include information pertaining to contraception.

I think a lot of you are misreading me. My whole argument has been in favor of reducing abortions, not by outlawing it, but by preventing its need. We appear to be on the same side of the war, but in disagreement on how to fight it.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

It sure as hell wasn't my mom !!! :cof:

Maybe not taught....
but how about influence????
I'M KIDDING!!!

 

[Bonnie]

Maybe not taught....
but how about influence????
I'M KIDDING!!!

Okay Oedopus, any more vivid imagry

 

[Bonnie]

I never said that teaching abstinence was a bad idea, my point was that teaching only abstinence was. That in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies and thereby reduce abortions, sex education should include information pertaining to contraception.

I think a lot of you are misreading me. My whole argument has been in favor of reducing abortions, not by outlawing it, but by preventing its need. We appear to be on the same side of the war, but in disagreement on how to fight it.

Fair enough :cof:

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Okay Oedopus, any more vivid imagry

Just trying to lighten the mood
It's a touchy thread (no pun intended)!