Abortion

[janeeng]

You do make good points. There are definitely situations in which it would be extremely tough,like rape and the mothers life. Especially if she has other children. It is tough. In general,I just don't approve of women who get many abortions or don't take responsibility.

My mom was adopted at 2 months old in 1951. Her mother was a 16 year old girl and dad was in the service. Thank God she didn't have a back alley abortion and had my mom,otherwise I wouldn't be here today. My grandma and grandpa were the best anyone could have asked for and I thank God that these were the people that adopted my mom. We have never met my mom's biological parents and never tried although I have thought about it-but figure it's my mom's decision ultimately. I don't know what she went through with her prgnancy,but I know because she made a good choice,I am here today. My mom has had a good life and grew up with wonderful parents-I loved my granny so,so much. I know it doesn't always work out this great,but it can.

And this is the one situation that I can say, I would applaud the woman that gave your Mom up, rather than have an abortion. And yes, for not that, you wouldn't be here! I think more teaching on safe sex, and Mother's teaching their Daughters about the possibility of getting pregnant is the biggest issue of them all. Too many young girls are going out and having unsafe sex and then wind up in this situation and yes, fear of going home - and as Joan stated, I am sure there are many parents that would support their Daughter, but then again, there are many that wouldn't.

I also knew a sleaze bag that did get pregnant and decided to wait until she was 7 months and then aborted it, it sickened me to even think of it. This was a baby that would have survived and could have been adopted. I had my Daughter at 6 months, yes, she was only 3 pds., but she fought hard and today, you would never know she was premature.

Either way you look at it, it's a very tough topic and very tough thing, but I decided that I won't judge anyone without knowing why this person is doing what they are doing.

 

[krisy]

I don't see how you cannot feel sorry for a 15 year old girl that got pregnant and her dad took her to a back alley abortionist, and she ended up sterile or dead as a result.

No one is forcing you to have an abortion, and if they did I'd be taking out my guns and doing what I could to stop it. But that is your choice, you are now trying to deny any legal choices to others. What it all comes down to is your belief that life starts at conception - and that is a topic of debate, depending on a lot of definitions.

But there is a reasonable argument to be made that a woman has the right to decide if she will provide her body to incubate a zigot into an embreo, and an embreo into a fetus, and a fetus into a full term baby. Where we draw the line between the woman's rights and those of the child she carries is the issue at hand. Personally, I think that meaningful independant life begins at the point where the cerebral cortex becomes functional, which appears to be part way through what we call the embreonic stage. I think that after this point abortions should not be legal except in exceptional circumstances.

As for birth control - well aside from "the pill" and it's like, no method is particularly reliable, other than vasectomy or having the tubes tied. Even the pill fails sometimes, and women put their health at risk by taking the pill, leaving other less reliable methods for those who do not wish to take those risks.

What you are really arguing, when you get right down to it, is that women should refrain from pre-marital sex, and that is just unrealistic.



Well, that is subjective. Many women do not just want to "make it". I would bet you have known these women after they made it on their own w/o help from the father - you have met the exceptions. How many women have you known who got pregnant, had the child w/o the father to help, and ended up welfare mothers? These are the "rule".



I agree partial birth abortions are wrong and should not be allowed. I personally don't think any kind of abortion should be allowed after the 16th week except where the mothers life is at serious risk - this might result in a non-viable fetus if it were to happen in the 20th through 24th weeks. But if the fetus is viable the baby should be delivered live. We are in agreement on this one I think.



Why is it over the top? Because men have to feel they can impregnate a woman to feel masculine? Give me a good argument against this option.

It is very much within our technical capability. We just have to wait until the boy is old enough to deliver a viable sperm sample, just incase for some reason he should become infertile as a result of the process, which would probably happen in a very very small percentage (maybe one in 10,000). This is a viable solution which solves the problem nearly completely, requires no taking of hormones by either the man or the woman, and it would be cheap too!

Where do you see the problem with this idea?

Wade.

Wade,just because a woman may need help for a while,does not to me mean that the child's live was not worth it. I know that women will have pre marital sex,but that doesn't mean we need to stop talking about waiting. It also doesn't mean abortion should be an easy option just because 2 people decide they must have sex and not be responsible. A lot of feminists don't even want women to have to wait 1 little week before they have an abortion. What is wrong with telling a woman think it over first? To me it is a major decision and no one should take it lightly. I know there are hard situations,I was one. My hubby and I were young and definitely did not make a lot of money. Thankfully,I had a good guy that loved me and we have been married 10 years in a couple of weeks. It was hard,but we made it. Even if he had choosen to leave,I still would not have had an abortion.


As far as the valve in boys hitting maturity,I don't understand the argument.You think if abortion is illegal,that is taking away a women's rights,but MAKING a 14 year old boy have a valve inserted in his body isn't communistic?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Wade, tell me your kidding with this mandatory valve insertion in boys. Have you lost your mind?

 

[wade]

"What we should do is arrive in the 21st century and allow women the right to do as they please with their bodies and use the technology available today to curtail unwanted babies."

And perhaps use abortion as a form of birth control?? I have know too many women who did just that! Slept around, then got pregnant, so run and get an abortion! This is just plain WRONG! And I'm not talking one abortion - but in some case 4 and 5. I can understand abortion perhaps in the case of violent rape or incest, or if the mother's life is in danger - and that is IT! In the case of a teenager afraid of what their parents may think, you might just be surprise how supportive some parents can be in this scenario. Especially in this day and age - it is seen that life can be okay with only one parent.

Now it is time to take my medication and take a nap.

I agree abortion should certainly not be used as a form of birth control. I think that a woman should have a right to at most one abortion, except where rape or medical circumstances are involved.

Furthermore, I think the period in which a woman has to make up her mind has to be reduced significantly. Once the cerebral cortex becomes active, I think there is little arguing that the child is now sentient and as such has rights. We should do everything we can to make sure the woman makes up her mind and if she is going to have an abortion, does so before this point in the embreo's development.

The only times I think an abortion should be allowed after the cerebral cortex becomes active is when the mother's life is at severe risk, or when the child is found to have a genetic disease which will prevent any quality of life. An example of the latter might be something like Duchenne Muscular Dystropy, which simply means a life of pain and death sometime in the early 20's. I can see no good reason to put the child or parents through this horror, or to saddle them or the state with the huge expense of caring for such a child. Even so, I think everything possible should be done to detect such diseases and abort the embreo before the cerbral cortex becomes active.

Wade.

 

[wade]

Wade,just because a woman may need help for a while,does not to me mean that the child's live was not worth it. I know that women will have pre marital sex,but that doesn't mean we need to stop talking about waiting. It also doesn't mean abortion should be an easy option just because 2 people decide they must have sex and not be responsible. A lot of feminists don't even want women to have to wait 1 little week before they have an abortion. What is wrong with telling a woman think it over first? To me it is a major decision and no one should take it lightly. I know there are hard situations,I was one. My hubby and I were young and definitely did not make a lot of money. Thankfully,I had a good guy that loved me and we have been married 10 years in a couple of weeks. It was hard,but we made it. Even if he had choosen to leave,I still would not have had an abortion.


As far as the valve in boys hitting maturity,I don't understand the argument.You think if abortion is illegal,that is taking away a women's rights,but MAKING a 14 year old boy have a valve inserted in his body isn't communistic?

Again, you are talking about your choices, and trying to force your morality upon others.

No I don't think it is communistic - as long as it is reversable at the choice of the boy as soon as he reaches adulthood.

 

[eric]

Furthermore, I think the period in which a woman has to make up her mind has to be reduced significantly. Once the cerebral cortex becomes active, I think there is little arguing that the child is now sentient and as such has rights.

I totally agree with this statement !

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I support legal abortion early-on, but let's not kid ourselves, it's always killing; it's always destroying life from day one.

 

[wade]

Wade, tell me your kidding with this mandatory valve insertion in boys. Have you lost your mind?

Well, manditory might be a bit strong, at least if it requires any surgery. But it should be made available to all men, free of charge, and any man fathering a child without telling the woman he is fertile before they have sex should spend a good time in prison.

It depends on the technology really. If it can be done with nano technology, a simple shot... and it has no negative consequences... yes then manditory would make sense.

Wade.

 

[eric]

Wade, now that is over the top !

 

[wade]

I support legal abortion early-on, but let's not kid ourselves, it's always killing; it's always destroying life from day one.

We destroy life all the time. The question, to me, is whether that life is sentient. If it is, we need to do everything possible to save it.

I do not consider the zigot to be sentient. One or even a few cells is not sentient life. The "morning after pill" should be readily available, and more research and development into this kind of drug needs to be done. This is the time for a woman who has had unwise sex to do something to make sure she does not end up pregnant.

The more developed the zigot/embreo/fetus, the more likely it is that it sentient. I think the logical point where sentience begins is when the cerebral cortex becomes functional and starts directing life functions. Prior to this, the cells are all living pretty much independantly. To me this is the line which we should try not to cross.

But in principal I agree - we should do everything we can not to need to deal with an unwanted pregnancy at any level. Thus my vasectomy idea! :teeth:

Wade.

Wade.

 

[Victor]

Consider this. I have seen it posted over and over in this thread that, in the old days, women used to go and have abortions in back alleys, and the poor things sometimes might get hurt or even die. Well, I can tell you that in EVERY case the child, a living breathing human being, has its life literally sucked out of his mother.

Consider one other thing. Since abortion was made legal by Roe v. Wade in 1973, how many abortions have been performed in this country? I can tell you that number is in the tens of millions of babies. In the history of mankind, there has never been such an extermination of innocents, and if back alley abortionists would have killed that many women, there would be great peril in this country. The most infamous serial killers in our times killed only dozens of people, not dozens of millions.

Did back alley abortionists kill tens of millions before abortion was made legal, or did people use self control and decide that pro-choice really meant whether or not to have sex?

Vic

 

[krisy]

Consider this. I have seen it posted over and over in this thread that, in the old days, women used to go and have abortions in back alleys, and the poor things sometimes might get hurt or even die. Well, I can tell you that in EVERY case the child, a living breathing human being, has its life literally sucked out of his mother.

Consider one other thing. Since abortion was made legal by Roe v. Wade in 1973, how many abortions have been performed in this country? I can tell you that number is in the tens of millions of babies. In the history of mankind, there has never been such an extermination of innocents, and if back alley abortionists would have killed that many women, there would be great peril in this country. The most infamous serial killers in our times killed only dozens of people, not dozens of millions.

Did back alley abortionists kill tens of millions before abortion was made legal, or did people use self control and decide that pro-choice really meant whether or not to have sex?

Vic

Welcome Vic...and good point!!!!

 

[eric]

Welcome Victor !

 

[wade]

Consider this. I have seen it posted over and over in this thread that, in the old days, women used to go and have abortions in back alleys, and the poor things sometimes might get hurt or even die. Well, I can tell you that in EVERY case the child, a living breathing human being, has its life literally sucked out of his mother.

Consider one other thing. Since abortion was made legal by Roe v. Wade in 1973, how many abortions have been performed in this country? I can tell you that number is in the tens of millions of babies. In the history of mankind, there has never been such an extermination of innocents, and if back alley abortionists would have killed that many women, there would be great peril in this country. The most infamous serial killers in our times killed only dozens of people, not dozens of millions.

Did back alley abortionists kill tens of millions before abortion was made legal, or did people use self control and decide that pro-choice really meant whether or not to have sex?

Vic

The rich used doctors at hospitals (often in another country) and the poor used back alley abortionists. And there were a lot of abortions - not all back alley abortions, not even most, lead to death or mutilation of the woman.

I agree abortion is wrong - but offer a realistic alternative - not some fantasy that women are going to keep their legs closed, cause they ain't!

Wade.

 

[MtnBiker]

not some fantasy that women are going to keep their legs closed, cause they ain't!

Wade.

Is that true for all women?

 

[krisy]

Wade,it takes 2 to tango!!!!

 

[Victor]

I agree abortion is wrong - but offer a realistic alternative - not some fantasy that women are going to keep their legs closed, cause they ain't!

Wade.

Is that what you think of all women, or just some, or just the ones you know?
(sorry, I couldn't resist)

Legitimizing abortion by making it legal has brought a lot of people to think like you do about women. According to you, women have no self control. If it is legal, it must be good. Obviously, this concept has limited application in a morally corrupt society.

We have cheapened our humanity by making human life a disposable commodity. In life as in all things, if we aim low, we hit low. If we aim high, we hit high. We have set our standards too low on this matter. What do we expect? We must endeavour to overturn Roe v. Wade and teach our children God's laws again.

Wade, God gave us free will and intellect. He set us apart from the other animals. This is the make up of our souls. we don't act on instinct alone. We have knowledge and free will. Many women do not let their instincts override their choice to do the right thing. What a privilege to be born a human being and have the ability to make that choice for God of our own free will.

Vic

 

[wade]

Wade,it takes 2 to tango!!!!

Ya, but lets face it, if you relied on men to restrain themselves, and woman were willing to have sex if the man wanted it, every woman would be pregnant by age 15! Guys are horn-dogs - it's in our genes!

 

[dmp]

Ya, but lets face it, if you relied on men to restrain themselves, and woman were willing to have sex if the man wanted it, every woman would be pregnant by age 15! Guys are horn-dogs - it's in our genes!

applying your 'gay' arguments to this one; Men should be allowed to fuck whomever they please, whenever they please because we are 'born that way'.

 

[wade]

Is that what you think of all women, or just some, or just the ones you know?
(sorry, I couldn't resist)

Legitimizing abortion by making it legal has brought a lot of people to think like you do about women. According to you, women have no self control. If it is legal, it must be good. Obviously, this concept has limited application in a morally corrupt society.

We have cheapened our humanity by making human life a disposable commodity. In life as in all things, if we aim low, we hit low. If we aim high, we hit high. We have set our standards too low on this matter. What do we expect? We must endeavour to overturn Roe v. Wade and teach our children God's laws again.

Wade, God gave us free will and intellect. He set us apart from the other animals. This is the make up of our souls. we don't act on instinct alone. We have knowledge and free will. Many women do not let their instincts override their choice to do the right thing. What a privilege to be born a human being and have the ability to make that choice for God of our own free will.

Vic

You are right about many women. But those are not the women relevant to this discussion, are they?