A serious question about Jewish history

[Indofred]

109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250


YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE

250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
.......

I've been hunting for the history that surrounds the first item on the list in my OP link.
Most of the opinion is just that and unsupported by anything except, "I know I'm right".
That applied to the extreme right wing, white power rubbish, through more extreme Muslim sites and ends up with pro Jewish sites who simply claim it's all a plot against Jews but offer about as much in support of their theory as the ultra right nut jobs manage.

I did find this.

The Cambridge History of Judaism: Volume 4, The Late Roman-Rabbinic Period - W. William David Davies, Louis Finkelstein, Steven T. Katz - Google Books

This suggests there was very little known about the conditions at the time but then we have to consider Tertullian.
His writing, "Adversus Judaeos ", leads me to think the early Catholic church had issues with Jewish teachings.
I'd have to find out a lot more about the power of the Catholics at that time but, if it is as I suspect, powerful, Tertullian's works might very well lead us to the reasons behind the expulsion of Jews.

 

[Indofred]

WARNING! SERIOUS POST RELATING TO JEWISH HISTORY!

Countries that wish they never let in muslims (which would have had a SERIOUS impact on Jewish history FOR SURE):

Albania

Perhaps you can explain why that post is any more valuable than any other unsupported list and how it helps a serious discussion.

Serious thread about history of the Jews and the problems they've had, not a slanging match.
Education, I'm assured, is a wonderful thing.

I'm learning a lot by researching my own question; give it a try and you may just bring some light into the darkness.

 

[Intense]

109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250


YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE

250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
.......

I've been hunting for the history that surrounds the first item on the list in my OP link.
Most of the opinion is just that and unsupported by anything except, "I know I'm right".
That applied to the extreme right wing, white power rubbish, through more extreme Muslim sites and ends up with pro Jewish sites who simply claim it's all a plot against Jews but offer about as much in support of their theory as the ultra right nut jobs manage.

I did find this.

The Cambridge History of Judaism: Volume 4, The Late Roman-Rabbinic Period - W. William David Davies, Louis Finkelstein, Steven T. Katz - Google Books

This suggests there was very little known about the conditions at the time but then we have to consider Tertullian.
His writing, "Adversus Judaeos ", leads me to think the early Catholic church had issues with Jewish teachings.
I'd have to find out a lot more about the power of the Catholics at that time but, if it is as I suspect, powerful, Tertullian's works might very well lead us to the reasons behind the expulsion of Jews.

The Catholic Encyclopedia
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Home
=========================
St. Cyprian of Carthage
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Cyprian of Carthage

 

[ima]

This is a historical list of places jews have been driven out.

Nothing says that some didn't return.........

109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250

And once again ima.....this thread is about the jews and not muslims.

Please try to stay on the OP's topic........

Jews were never expelled from arabs countries in 1948. There are and have been Jews in arab countries forever. In Germany during WWII, there were still Jews in Germany, ever heard of Oskar Schindler? And there were Jews in Germany all through the war and even afterwards. I could go on, but you already knew that didn't you? You're just happy to have found a place of "serious" discussion to vent your hatred for Jews. At least have the courage to admit your hatred for Jews.

 

[Indofred]

Muslims have always treated Jews very well compared with the way Christians have treated them. Do not mix religion up with reactions to the nazi occupation of Palestine and its child-killing. There is nothing 'Jewish' about racist killers, though the zionist propaganda machine is working full out to equate decency with anti-semitism, as you might expect from disciples of the Great Leader.

On the face of it but without really checking yet, the bold seems to be the case up to post WWII.
However, to make that claim, you really have to support it with unbiased links.
I'm still on the first in my list but the Catholic church of the time does look to have been at least the spark, if not the cause of that event.
That in no way frees Muslims from anything but it's a long list and I'm only on number one.

As for the rest of the post, Palestine is NOTHING to do with this thread so please avoid any mention of modern problems.
As soon as the thread is allowed that way, it'll just turn into a slanging match and get deleted.
I'm hoping we can get honest, researched answers from all sides of the modern divide, thus produce understanding between all.

The more I look at the modern problems, the more I see it's down to stereotypes and blind hate.

And when he comes, he will open the eyes of the blind and unplug the ears of the deaf.

I don't claim or with to be, "He" but I may be able to go a little way down that road.

 

[ima]

This is a historical list of places jews have been driven out.

Nothing says that some didn't return.........

109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250

And once again ima.....this thread is about the jews and not muslims.

Please try to stay on the OP's topic........

Jews were never expelled from arabs countries in 1948. There are and have been Jews in arab countries forever. In Germany during WWII, there were still Jews in Germany, ever heard of Oskar Schindler? And there were Jews in Germany all through the war and even afterwards. I could go on, but you already knew that didn't you? You're just happy to have found a place of "serious" discussion to vent your hatred for Jews. At least have the courage to admit your hatred for Jews.

Once again.....the thread isn't about me or muslims.

Please adhere to the topic of the OP.........

I did, I refuted your bogus claim that Jews had been expelled from Germany, ever. And muslims countries. And we all noticed that you didn't deny hating Jews (even though this thread isn't about Jew haters like you, well ok , it is actually).

 

[Indofred]

The Catholic Encyclopedia
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Home
=========================
St. Cyprian of Carthage
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Cyprian of Carthage

This one explains the power of the church better.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Carthage

A council of seventy bishops held at Carthage by Bishop Agrippinus at the epoch (variously dated between 198 and 222), substantially corroborates the testimony of Tertullian as to the general progress of Christianity in Africa in the early years of the third century. It is impossible to say whence came the first preachers of Christianity in Roman Africa. It is worthy of note in this regard, however, that from the moment when African Christianity comes into historical prominence, the bishops of Roman Africa are seen in very close relations with the See of Rome. The faithful of Carthage in particular were "greatly interested in all that happened at Rome; every movement of ideas, every occurrence bearing on discipline, ritual, literature, that took place at Rome was immediately re-echoed at Carthage" (Duchesne, Hist. Anc. De l'Église, I, 392; cf. Leclecq, L'Afrique chrét., I, iii). Indeed, during the last decade of the second century the Roman Church was governed by an African, Pope Victor (189-199).

It looks as if the church held serious power and Tertullian, who seemed to have big problems with Jewish teachings, had a voice in the church.

Seems we may have found an answer to the first one on the list.
Anyone agree?

 

[iolo]

Muslims have always treated Jews very well compared with the way Christians have treated them. Do not mix religion up with reactions to the nazi occupation of Palestine and its child-killing. There is nothing 'Jewish' about racist killers, though the zionist propaganda machine is working full out to equate decency with anti-semitism, as you might expect from disciples of the Great Leader.

On the face of it but without really checking yet, the bold seems to be the case up to post WWII.
However, to make that claim, you really have to support it with unbiased links.
I'm still on the first in my list but the Catholic church of the time does look to have been at least the spark, if not the cause of that event.
That in no way frees Muslims from anything but it's a long list and I'm only on number one.

As for the rest of the post, Palestine is NOTHING to do with this thread so please avoid any mention of modern problems.
As soon as the thread is allowed that way, it'll just turn into a slanging match and get deleted.
I'm hoping we can get honest, researched answers from all sides of the modern divide, thus produce understanding between all.

The more I look at the modern problems, the more I see it's down to stereotypes and blind hate.

And when he comes, he will open the eyes of the blind and unplug the ears of the deaf.

I don't claim or with to be, "He" but I may be able to go a little way down that road.

You can't at one and the same time try to avoid discussion of 'Israel' and introduce the effects of the ethnic cleansing practiced by racists there. All actions against 'Jews' in Muslim countries have resulted from zionist racism and murder. If you want to leave out the present, let's get back to history, but you can't have it both ways, can you?

 

[Indofred]

More in the same style.

History of the Church vs. Jews

AD 200
From very early days, Church sermons and Christian theological writing almost invariably included passionate anti-Jewish incitement. Twenty-seven of the thirty-two surviving works of Tertullian (160-225), a priest from Carthage who is considered the first theologian of the West, contain anti-Jewish discourse.' In De Oratione, he wrote that 'though Israel may wash all its members every day, it is never clean. Its hands ... are always stained, covered forever with the blood of the prophets and of our Lord himself.'

240 AD
Origen of Alexandria writes that the Jews "have committed the most abominable of crimes" in conspiring against Christ, and for that reason "the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election". *
and 'the blood of Jesus falls not only on the Jews of that time, but on all generations of Jews up to the end of the world'.

248 AD
"St. Cyprian writes that the Jews have fallen under the heavy wrath of God, because they have departed from the Lord, and have followed idols."

There may well be more involved but it's really looking like a Christian Vs. Jews match in that case.
Given the Italian event happened around the same time, fair chance the same factors were in play but I have yet to look at that so there may well be more to it.

Interestingly, no reference is made to money lending or attempts at take over of anything by Jews so this looks like a theological conflict, not one involving the general population or social conditions.

 

[Indofred]

You can't at one and the same time try to avoid discussion of 'Israel' and introduce the effects of the ethnic cleansing practiced by racists there. All actions against 'Jews' in Muslim countries have resulted from zionist racism and murder. If you want to leave out the present, let's get back to history, but you can't have it both ways, can you?

I rather hope to.
This thread has NOTHING to do with modern conflicts and a lot to do with far older historical events.
So far, the first event on the list appears to be a purely theological conflict and nothing to do with Israel as such.
If you can't manage to open your eyes, don't bother opening the thread but start one about Israel/Palestine where I'm sure it'll result in the usual carnage and insults but absolutely nothing will be gained.

Discussing problems in an adult manner, with eyes and minds open, may just allow a greater understanding of each other and remove some of the blind hate and useless lies so many of us tell about each other.

Not everything has to boil down to Israeli/Palestinian events post WWII.
If you can't get past that, please don't bother.

 

[Indofred]

(even though this thread isn't about Jew haters like you, well ok , it is actually).

It isn't about Jew haters or Muslim haters.
It's about haters whoever they may be.

I'd like to make a deal with you and Sunni:

You avoid any mention of the last hundred years or so and stick to the thread's intention and I'll assume you two can actually reason like a human beings and see past blind hate, propaganda and the rubbish we read in the various news outlets.

Jews aren't anyone's enemy
Muslims aren't anyone's enemy
Christians aren't anyone's enemy.

Ignorance, refusal to learn, lack of understanding and plain knowing how right you are, are the real killers in today's world.
Perhaps you two could have a go at a new trick, finding out about history and creating an informed opinion.

Willing to give it a try?

If you find out you were right and Muslims/Jews/Christians (Pick the preferred target for your hate) are actually all guilty, you have made an informed choice.
If you realised your pre-conceived ideas are wrong, you must examine your position.
I've already found out some of my ideas were way off so I must adjust my position to suit but find I can't take up a new position until I do a lot more research.
I have to be honest; I was expecting to find a web of financial dealings involving Jewish merchants but I've found nothing of the sort in the first event on the list.

Your only fear in taking part is, if you can't stand to be wrong.
Are you strong enough to do this properly?

 

[Sunni Man]

In my defense:

1) I have not brought up the Israeli/ Palestine conflict in this thread.

2) I do not hate the jews; but I do vehemently dislike zionism and Israel

 

[Sunni Man]

Back on topic:

Although the frame work for much anti-jewish sentiment was do to the Catholic church.

The bulk of the problem was the jews engaging in usury with their gentile neighbors.

And their clannish and superior behavior towards their fellow citizens.........

 

[Sunni Man]

On topic:

The problem of so called anti-semitism has been around for thousands of years.

Although many people like to blame it on scapegoating of an innocent group due to minor reasons.

In reality, many people of various countries have legitimate and valid complaints toward the jews and their behavior.

 

[ima]

On topic:

The problem of so called anti-semitism has been around for thousands of years.

Although many people like to blame it on scapegoating of an innocent group due to minor reasons.

In reality, many people of various countries have legitimate and valid complaints toward the jews and their behavior.

Legitimate and valid to whom? You? Again, no surprise there, and no surprise you have no link.

 

[ima]

Back on topic:

Although the frame work for much anti-jewish sentiment was do to the Catholic church.

The bulk of the problem was the jews engaging in usury with their gentile neighbors.

And their clannish and superior behavior towards their fellow citizens.........

You must have meant the Islamic Mosques.
Again, no link, no surprise there.

 

[Circe]

Indofred, it may not be a recoverable thread but congrats for the courage to try --

in the first place, things have really changed. I can remember when there was NONE of this vehement prejudice, or at least one didn't hear it outright.

The influx of Muslims plus the left turning firmly away from Israel seems to be the reason antisemitism has grown hot again.

As for the historical events, I said I think envy is the reason. They were smarter and they were richer: what's to like? I don't agree with that, but I think that's what happened.

But here's another --- they were weak, they wouldn't or didn't fight. Like the Amish today in this country. The Amish have avoided envy because they farm and most people in America don't want to farm, so their refusal to fight is so far not a problem.

But Jews wouldn't fight back, and so it was easy to take their money and their property and people did, again and again. People are tempted to murder by weak targets: look at all the bullying in high schools. Everywhere. People with a set toward combativeness have a natural deterrence. People who are known not to fight tend to be victimized. Especially when law and order is poor, as in plague time or war or the king is broke again.

 

[ima]

Jews aren't anyone's enemy

Iran, Hezbollah...

Muslims aren't anyone's enemy

Sunni admits that muslims want to turn the US into a sharialand, making muslims our enemies.

Christians aren't anyone's enemy.

Try Homosexuals, women's rights...

 

[Sunni Man]

On topic:

Europe (including Russia) historically has always had a problem with the jews.

Many people want to blame the Catholic church.

But some of the countries like Russia were Orthodox christians.

While other European countries were Protestant.

 

[ima]

Indofred, it may not be a recoverable thread but congrats for the courage to try --

in the first place, things have really changed. I can remember when there was NONE of this vehement prejudice, or at least one didn't hear it outright.

The influx of Muslims plus the left turning firmly away from Israel seems to be the reason antisemitism has grown hot again.

As for the historical events, I said I think envy is the reason. They were smarter and they were richer: what's to like? I don't agree with that, but I think that's what happened.

But here's another --- they were weak, they wouldn't or didn't fight. Like the Amish today in this country. The Amish have avoided envy because they farm and most people in America don't want to farm, so their refusal to fight is so far not a problem.

But Jews wouldn't fight back, and so it was easy to take their money and their property and people did, again and again. People are tempted to murder by weak targets: look at all the bullying in high schools. Everywhere. People with a set toward combativeness have a natural deterrence. People who are known not to fight tend to be victimized. Especially when law and order is poor, as in plague time or war or the king is broke again.

Fred wants to explore how he can blame someone else than muslims for today's anti-semitism by going back in history to find any nugget of non-muslim Jew hatred, so he can point a finger at them and say: see? It's not muslims!