A serious question about Jewish history

[Sunni Man]

On topic

Much of the anti-semitic was based on illogical hatred towards the jews.

That cannot be denied.

But there were some elements of anti-semitism that was based of fact and justified.........

 

[ima]

On topic

Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.

That cannot be denied.

So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?

 

[Circe]

Fred wants to explore how he can blame someone else than muslims for today's anti-semitism by going back in history to find any nugget of non-muslim Jew hatred, so he can point a finger at them and say: see? It's not muslims!

Your description, indofred, says you are an "extremist muslim" from Indonesia. Is that true?

 

[Sunni Man]

^^^^^ He was being sarcastic.......read his posts and you will find him far from being an extremist.......

 

[MHunterB]

Back on topic:

Although the frame work for much anti-jewish sentiment was do to the Catholic church.

The bulk of the problem was the jews engaging in usury with their gentile neighbors.

And their clannish and superior behavior towards their fellow citizens.........

Define 'usury', 'clannish' and 'superior' - and then produce what you consider documentation of said behavior as prevalent among Jewish communities of various places and times.

Obviously you do not recognize your assertion about 'the bulk of the problem' as being baseless and prejudicial.

 

[MHunterB]

IN an era when Charlemagne was considered 'miraculous' for being able to read AND write, and to read without 'subvocalizing' - what would the unlettered make of an entire community who aspired to be literate, and to some extent succeeded?

Especially when these people were not simply 'not Christian' - you have to recall the STIGMA of Jews being 'rejecters of Christ'!

 

[Sunni Man]

Back on Topic:

I guess the issue comes down to who is culpable for the problem between jews and gentiles.

The jews claim it is 100% based on hatred towards them.

And the gentiles say it's totally the jews fault by their behavior.

Most likely it's somewhere in between.

So the question is; how should the percentages be divided? ........

 

[MHunterB]

On topic:

Europe (including Russia) historically has always had a problem with the jews.

Many people want to blame the Catholic church.

But some of the countries like Russia were Orthodox christians.

While other European countries were Protestant.

'The Catholic Church' was the ONLY official Church for quite a few hundred years. I realize that some Protestants seek to disassociate themselves from RC bigotry - but if one reads Martin Luther, it becomes obvious that Protestant Christianity is no more 'tolerant' (SPIT!) than the RC is alleged to be.

As to the 'Eastern Orthodox' Churches: the basic 'sin' of Judaism is that it continues to exist *after* Jesus. That really is what it appears to boil down to, this objection by SOME Christians at SOME time to the "sin" of Jews-practicing-Judaism .

And I dare say, that is the case with SOME Muslims at SOME times. Both Chistianity and Islam have the element of 'universaity': both assert in some interpretations that ONLY their adherents will be 'saved'.

Judaism does not claim to be 'the' way for anyone else: it DOES accept proselytes, and does not state than ONLY Jews will be 'saved' - BUT what is 'saved' in Judaism? It CANNOT be 'saved from Hell', because there is no such concept in Judaism. It CANNOT be 'saved from the Devil' - for the 'Satan' of Cristianity does not exist in Judaism.

This is one of those things I meant about 'context': both Christians and Muslims wrongly assume that all elements of their theology are present in Judaism, and hold the same importance as in their on faiths.

I don't 'blame' anyone for such a common misconception: we tend to study only our own faith 'on its own', any of us. And there are so many more of Christians or Muslims than of Jews: over one Billion each to 14 million Jews. So it wouldn't be at all reasonable for me to expect you to know all about my faith.

When either Christians or Muslims want to learn about Judaism, it's evidently very difficult for some - SOME! - to 'suspend disbelief' and actually see Judaism as its own system, and NOT *in relation to* the teachings of their own faith.

I regret that I have few ways to express this - but I've noticed some folks seem to confuse understanding what I actually believe (as opposed to what your Scriptures say about it), with actually believing it yourselves..... I find that very puzzling, but that inability appears to be what is fueling some of the opposition to, say, reading books like 'Huckleberry Finn' in public schools.(or Anne Frank's diary)

 

[ima]

Back on Topic:

I guess the issue comes down to who is culpable for the problem between jews and gentiles.

The jews claim it is 100% based on hatred towards them.

And the gentiles say it's totally the jews fault by their behavior.

Most likely it's somewhere in between.

So the question is; how should the percentages be divided? ........

99% muslims' fault. 1% christians' fault.

 

[ima]

On topic

Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.

That cannot be denied.

So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?

Back on topic:

muslims are the most anti-semetic group in all of history.

Now THAT'S a fact.

 

[hoosier88]

On topic

Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.

That cannot be denied.

So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?

Back on topic:

muslims are the most anti-semetic group in all of history.

Now THAT'S a fact.

(My bold)

From The end of faith - Sam Harris:
"Anti-Semitism," like the term "Aryan," is a misnomer of 19th C German pseudo-science. Semitic (derived from Shem, one of Noah's three sons) "designated a group of cognate languages that included Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Babylonian, Assyrian & Ethiopic, not an ethnic or racial group." See R. S. Wistrich, Anti-Semitism: The Longest Hatred (NY: Schocken Books, 1991), xvi. "Anti-Semitism" should therefore denote a hatred of Arabs as well, which it does not. Despite its mistaken roots, "anti-Semitism" has become the only acceptable term for the hatred of Jews." - p. 246.

 

[iolo]

You can't at one and the same time try to avoid discussion of 'Israel' and introduce the effects of the ethnic cleansing practiced by racists there. All actions against 'Jews' in Muslim countries have resulted from zionist racism and murder. If you want to leave out the present, let's get back to history, but you can't have it both ways, can you?

I rather hope to.
This thread has NOTHING to do with modern conflicts and a lot to do with far older historical events.
So far, the first event on the list appears to be a purely theological conflict and nothing to do with Israel as such.
If you can't manage to open your eyes, don't bother opening the thread but start one about Israel/Palestine where I'm sure it'll result in the usual carnage and insults but absolutely nothing will be gained.

Discussing problems in an adult manner, with eyes and minds open, may just allow a greater understanding of each other and remove some of the blind hate and useless lies so many of us tell about each other.

Not everything has to boil down to Israeli/Palestinian events post WWII.
If you can't get past that, please don't bother.

As we know, Muslims have always respected the 'People of the Book'. Those who currently rant against Muslims do so on no evidence but that of the zionist colony. The question of historical Jew-hatred is interesting: brainwashed colonialist ranters aren't. Since we agree I see no reason for you to come Mr Holy with me, matey. Pack it in!

 

[Indofred]

On topic

Much of the anti-semitism has come, and comes today from muslims.

That cannot be denied.

So far I can't figure out why (jealousy perhaps?), so let's call it illogical, shall we?

Back on topic:

muslims are the most anti-semetic group in all of history.

Now THAT'S a fact.

When you accuse, you must prove what you say is true.
My first post gave a list of serious events. I'm still working on the first one so I don't have enough evidence to say either way.

I suggest, people knowing how right they are without bothering to check is the cause of most of the hate in history.

You have the list so post your research and prove your position.

 

[Indofred]

You can't at one and the same time try to avoid discussion of 'Israel' and introduce the effects of the ethnic cleansing practiced by racists there. All actions against 'Jews' in Muslim countries have resulted from zionist racism and murder. If you want to leave out the present, let's get back to history, but you can't have it both ways, can you?

I rather hope to.
This thread has NOTHING to do with modern conflicts and a lot to do with far older historical events.
So far, the first event on the list appears to be a purely theological conflict and nothing to do with Israel as such.
If you can't manage to open your eyes, don't bother opening the thread but start one about Israel/Palestine where I'm sure it'll result in the usual carnage and insults but absolutely nothing will be gained.

Discussing problems in an adult manner, with eyes and minds open, may just allow a greater understanding of each other and remove some of the blind hate and useless lies so many of us tell about each other.

Not everything has to boil down to Israeli/Palestinian events post WWII.
If you can't get past that, please don't bother.

As we know, Muslims have always respected the 'People of the Book'. Those who currently rant against Muslims do so on no evidence but that of the zionist colony. The question of historical Jew-hatred is interesting: brainwashed colonialist ranters aren't. Since we agree I see no reason for you to come Mr Holy with me, matey. Pack it in!

If Muslims have no guilt in the historical crimes against Jews, post your research to prove it.
It's taken me several days to look at one event so you must either have lots of free time or you're really fast. That or you're saying it without bothering to find out if you're right.
I'll say this again.
PALESTINE/ISRAEL SINCE WWII HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.
WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT, START A THREAD.

 

[SAYIT]

I rather hope to.
This thread has NOTHING to do with modern conflicts and a lot to do with far older historical events.
So far, the first event on the list appears to be a purely theological conflict and nothing to do with Israel as such.
If you can't manage to open your eyes, don't bother opening the thread but start one about Israel/Palestine where I'm sure it'll result in the usual carnage and insults but absolutely nothing will be gained.

Discussing problems in an adult manner, with eyes and minds open, may just allow a greater understanding of each other and remove some of the blind hate and useless lies so many of us tell about each other.

Not everything has to boil down to Israeli/Palestinian events post WWII.
If you can't get past that, please don't bother.

As we know, Muslims have always respected the 'People of the Book'. Those who currently rant against Muslims do so on no evidence but that of the zionist colony. The question of historical Jew-hatred is interesting: brainwashed colonialist ranters aren't. Since we agree I see no reason for you to come Mr Holy with me, matey. Pack it in!

If Muslims have no guilt in the historical crimes against Jews, post your research to prove it.
It's taken me several days to look at one event so you must either have lots of free time or you're really fast. That or you're saying it without bothering to find out if you're right.
I'll say this again.
PALESTINE/ISRAEL SINCE WWII HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.
WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT, START A THREAD.

The Koran contains both positive and negative comments about Jews. For those Muslims who subscribe to the negatives, hate for Jews is scripturally justified, even required. That seems a common thread among anti-Semites ... subscription to negatives about Jews be they the hateful comments of Luther or any of the socio-political canards through the centuries. According to historian Walter Laqueur, conflicting statements about Jews in the Koran have affected Muslim attitudes towards Jews to this day, especially during periods of rising Islamic fundamentalism.
Walter Laqueur, "The Origins of Islamic Terrorism."

 

[SAYIT]

What homeland? Canaan, which they took by conquest?

Or is it 'different' when Jews do it? Let me guess, that's just how [ethnic] nationalism works...

That seems to have been how it was done thousands of years ago. Do you have a prob with all who did so or just the Joooos?

 

[SAYIT]

Muslims don't hate Jews. There are a lot of Muslims in the world, and making broad brush statements about all of them is silly.

Isn't that what most of the anti-Jew posts on this thread are about?

 

[SAYIT]

Why don't you tell us why muslims hate jews so much? I'd be curious to know.

Because:
a - Muslims don't hate Jews; some Muslims hate Jews
b - It's nothing to do with the thread

What has been suggested, many times, is Jews are targeted because of stereotypes about them getting rich off the misery of the general population.

BBC News - Payday lenders told to improve by OFT

"Payday lenders" provide a service to those who can't get loans elsewhere but provide a 'service' that is highly unpopular.

If enough members of the Jewish groups (before any given historical event) were engaged in this sort of work, it may well explain where the majority were targeted.
Add the suggestions, Jews lived in enclaves, looked different and dressed differently to the local majority and we have a hypothesis.

Fred, it's pretty simple, they've been "hated" because they've always been a minority wherever they were. As is almost every minority everywhere, like I said, nothing exceptional over Jews being hated. Every country has its hated minorities, in the US, it's muslims, used to be beaners, before that used to be blacks, before that used to be indians.

That may well hold some truth but, for that to be a total explanation, all other minority in similar positions must be proven to have the same problems.

I know Gypsies have been far less than popular for a very long time but have they had an equal number of problems, pro rata?

Gypsies: A Persecuted Race : Center for Holocaust & Genocide Studies : University of Minnesota

Seems there may be a simple explanation as far as the interaction between non Christians and the Christian church goes.

So we have a theory in progress as far as Christian areas go.
The church was clearly very powerful so, if the established church didn't like you, you were basically buggered.

Question is, can we prove or disprove this theory with research into the subject?

Sunni has a deep hatred for Jews, it's obvious by his posts. He probably wishes he were one, instead of what he is (if I post what he is, I'll inexplicably get banned, go figure).
Loan sharking isn't exceptional to the Jews either. But if you're looking for a separate reason for the Jews as a minority and why they got hosed so many times, it's probably because they are a racist minority, very closed to gentiles. And as a racist minority, that can rub a majority the wrong way, especially when the majority is trying to be racist towards a minority that is thumbing their own racist noses at them.

I'm going to tell you why Jews have separated themselves within host countries.
1) Going to synagogue was only done on foot.
2) Jewish learning meant being near the schools
3) Maintaining the kosher laws required access to a kosher butcher and a centralized place one could acquire kosher foods.
4) Many communities "ghettoized" their Jews, forcing them to live together while restricting their mainstream opportunities. Those restrictions along with the rigors of Jewish studies meant many Jews were poor making them a target of Gentile hate and scorn.
Harsh conditions were imposed upon them and then blame was placed on them for the conditions in which they lived. Some still blame them.

 

[SAYIT]

The hatred towards the Jews throughout history didn't happen in a vacuum.

It was a product of cause and effect.

Obviously something about the jews demeanor or behavior brought out intense animosity towards them..........

Must be. I know everytime I see a woman walking down the street unescorted by male family members I think she deserves to be raped.

 

[SAYIT]

109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250


YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE

250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's
1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nazi Controlled Areas
1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries

Again I ask you to post the source of your list. If you are gonna use other's work you need to give 'em credit.