A question for pro-lifers...

[miami_thomas]

It doesn't sound correct because it isn't. There are no babies killed in abortion.

If that is what you need to keep telling yourself, to make yourself feel better.

It's what you guys tell yourselves as well.

No one has a funeral for a miscarriage... we dont' treat tampons as potential crime scenes.

When abortion was illegal, it wasn't because there was a concern for babies, it was because these women were offending public morality... except they never threw them in jail. Rarely threw the abortionists in jail, either.

If a guy punches a pregnant wonan in the stomach and the unborn baby dies, does he just get charged with assault?

 

[miami_thomas]

Do you support abortion in the case of rape/incest victims, and can you explain why you do( if you do).


Edit to add- I'm just curious where pro-life people fall on the life scale.

I don't know about rape/incest. I think about that child growing up and doing great things in society but then again that child could grow up to be Hitler or Pol Pot. I can't answer this question until I'm in that situation.

What about abortion to save the mothers life? I think I can support this, but again, I've never been in that situation and pray that I never am, and again, what if the child were to growup and cure cancer?

What I want to know is why the father has no say one way or the other? If the father wants the child but the mother don't, the father has no say. If the father doesn't want the child but the mother does, the father has no say and he's on the hook for child support. The father should have some say, but he doesn't.

I think i mentioned this in another thread but...

I think fathers should be able to opt out. Any unmarried woman who finds herself with child should be required to serve the prospective father with papers within her 1st trimester, asking if he wants to become a parent. He can then either step up and agree, or sever all ties to any future child. That way the mother can make an informed decision, she can either abort or go forward knowing she will be a single parent.

At what point is a baby a life? You are saying that a baby is only alive once he/she is born?

 

[JoeB131]

If that is what you need to keep telling yourself, to make yourself feel better.

It's what you guys tell yourselves as well.

No one has a funeral for a miscarriage... we dont' treat tampons as potential crime scenes.

When abortion was illegal, it wasn't because there was a concern for babies, it was because these women were offending public morality... except they never threw them in jail. Rarely threw the abortionists in jail, either.

If a guy punches a pregnant wonan in the stomach and the unborn baby dies, does he just get charged with assault?

In some cases... yes.

 

[Noomi]

I don't know about rape/incest. I think about that child growing up and doing great things in society but then again that child could grow up to be Hitler or Pol Pot. I can't answer this question until I'm in that situation.

What about abortion to save the mothers life? I think I can support this, but again, I've never been in that situation and pray that I never am, and again, what if the child were to growup and cure cancer?

What I want to know is why the father has no say one way or the other? If the father wants the child but the mother don't, the father has no say. If the father doesn't want the child but the mother does, the father has no say and he's on the hook for child support. The father should have some say, but he doesn't.

I think i mentioned this in another thread but...

I think fathers should be able to opt out. Any unmarried woman who finds herself with child should be required to serve the prospective father with papers within her 1st trimester, asking if he wants to become a parent. He can then either step up and agree, or sever all ties to any future child. That way the mother can make an informed decision, she can either abort or go forward knowing she will be a single parent.

At what point is a baby a life? You are saying that a baby is only alive once he/she is born?

Pretty much. While it is in the womb it is alive because it is attached to another person. That is basically life support.

 

[Noomi]

Then you agree that a life is taken in abortion

Yes, but its the same kind of life that is attached to a machine. That life ONLY exists at the expense of someone else.

Disgusting

So you don't agree that a fetus is alive ONLY because of another person?

You must have been born without brains.

 

[miami_thomas]

It's what you guys tell yourselves as well.

No one has a funeral for a miscarriage... we dont' treat tampons as potential crime scenes.

When abortion was illegal, it wasn't because there was a concern for babies, it was because these women were offending public morality... except they never threw them in jail. Rarely threw the abortionists in jail, either.

If a guy punches a pregnant wonan in the stomach and the unborn baby dies, does he just get charged with assault?

In some cases... yes.

So if we want to, we can just go and kill unborn babies to help control population and there is nothing wrong with that because they are unborn and therefore not a life?

 

[Noomi]

If a guy punches a pregnant wonan in the stomach and the unborn baby dies, does he just get charged with assault?

In some cases... yes.

So if we want to, we can just go and kill unborn babies to help control population and there is nothing wrong with that because they are unborn and therefore not a life?

If you were to punch a pregnant woman in the tummy and make her lose her baby, you have violated her rights. She wanted to keep the baby and you denied her that. You should be charged with a crime, but should it be murder? Not necessarily.

 

[miami_thomas]

In some cases... yes.

So if we want to, we can just go and kill unborn babies to help control population and there is nothing wrong with that because they are unborn and therefore not a life?

If you were to punch a pregnant woman in the tummy and make her lose her baby, you have violated her rights. She wanted to keep the baby and you denied her that. You should be charged with a crime, but should it be murder? Not necessarily.

I don’t get it why only abortion. How about if a child is born mentally challenged we should just put them to sleep like we do our pets. Heck, even if they are 4 or 5 years old and we find them to be autistic or not quite a high enough IQ we should put them to sleep too. After all abortion and contraception were truly started as a way for eugenics to remove those deemed unfit. Most abortions are nothing to do with rape or incest most of them are the poor that can’t afford to have a baby which also tends to be minorities as well.

Why stop there? Why don’t we just end the middle man as well? Why don’t we just put all the poor people to sleep to then we can end poverty?

 

[JoeB131]

If a guy punches a pregnant wonan in the stomach and the unborn baby dies, does he just get charged with assault?

In some cases... yes.

So if we want to, we can just go and kill unborn babies to help control population and there is nothing wrong with that because they are unborn and therefore not a life?

Wow, do you often make absurd arguments and not realize how silly you look.

Unless you want to declare every uterus in the country public property and take away all rights for pregnant women, your world of no abortions won't work.

Now, if you jokers were really serious about reducing the number of abortions, you'd support family and medical leave- paid, you'd support comprehensive sex education, you'd support birth control funding with no strings, you'd support universal health care.

The woman who has absolutely no intention of having a baby, ever. YOu aren't going to stop her from having an abortion. She'll find a way to get one.

The woman who just can't deal with this right now... well, maybe you'll prevent her abortion by helping her deal with it.

 

[miami_thomas]

Wow, do you often make absurd arguments and not realize how silly you look.

Unless you want to declare every uterus in the country public property and take away all rights for pregnant women, your world of no abortions won't work.

So what you are saying is that a unborn child has no right to survive and if a mother wants to kill that unborn child it is ok but if anyone else kills that unborn child it is not ok?

Now, if you jokers were really serious about reducing the number of abortions, you'd support family and medical leave- paid, you'd support comprehensive sex education, you'd support birth control funding with no strings, you'd support universal health care.

So you are saying that people cannot be responsible for themselves and it is up to the rest of us to take care of them? Yet for sex education to work they would have to be responsible for themselves so that is kind of a silly argument. As far as universal health care goes, by the time they got their appointment the baby would have already been born.

The woman who has absolutely no intention of having a baby, ever. YOu aren't going to stop her from having an abortion. She'll find a way to get one.
The woman who just can't deal with this right now... well, maybe you'll prevent her abortion by helping her deal with it.

Why stop there what about a woman that can’t deal with the children she already has that are born. Why can’t we put them to sleep for her as well? Maybe she should have been responsible and thought about that prior to getting pregnant.

 

[JoeB131]

Wow, do you often make absurd arguments and not realize how silly you look.

Unless you want to declare every uterus in the country public property and take away all rights for pregnant women, your world of no abortions won't work.

So what you are saying is that a unborn child has no right to survive and if a mother wants to kill that unborn child it is ok but if anyone else kills that unborn child it is not ok?

I'm saying that you MORONS have yet to tell me how you are going to keep her from having an abortion if she wants one.

Tell me how that works. How are you going to keep women from having abortions. Until you can tell me a way to make that work, yeah, then we can have a discussion about whether it's a good idea to implement it.

A guy who punches a pregnant woman would get his ass kicked by every man in the immediate vicinity.

[

Now, if you jokers were really serious about reducing the number of abortions, you'd support family and medical leave- paid, you'd support comprehensive sex education, you'd support birth control funding with no strings, you'd support universal health care.

So you are saying that people cannot be responsible for themselves and it is up to the rest of us to take care of them? Yet for sex education to work they would have to be responsible for themselves so that is kind of a silly argument. As far as universal health care goes, by the time they got their appointment the baby would have already been born.

Yet oddly enough, in countries like France, they not only have universal health care, they have a lower abortion rate than we do, even though the government pays for abortions.

If the rest of us are going to insist that women have babies they didn't want, didn't plan for and can't afford, then, yes, the rest of us should pony up. Or learn to mind our own fuckin' business.

[[

The woman who has absolutely no intention of having a baby, ever. YOu aren't going to stop her from having an abortion. She'll find a way to get one.
The woman who just can't deal with this right now... well, maybe you'll prevent her abortion by helping her deal with it.

Why stop there what about a woman that can’t deal with the children she already has that are born. Why can’t we put them to sleep for her as well? Maybe she should have been responsible and thought about that prior to getting pregnant.

Maybe we should put you to sleep. That's what they usually do with things that froth at the mouth...

Look, just because you can't ever get laid, doesn't mean that everyone plans it out. Sometimes it just happens.

 

[miami_thomas]

I'm saying that you MORONS have yet to tell me how you are going to keep her from having an abortion if she wants one.

Tell me how that works. How are you going to keep women from having abortions. Until you can tell me a way to make that work, yeah, then we can have a discussion about whether it's a good idea to implement it.

A guy who punches a pregnant woman would get his ass kicked by every man in the immediate vicinity.

How do you keep someone from murdering anyone? You can prevent it but you do make it a felony murder charge.

Yet oddly enough, in countries like France, they not only have universal health care, they have a lower abortion rate than we do, even though the government pays for abortions.

If the rest of us are going to insist that women have babies they didn't want, didn't plan for and can't afford, then, yes, the rest of us should pony up. Or learn to mind our own fuckin' business.

That is because it is universal health care and it takes so long to get an appointment to get the abortion that most people have the baby before the appointment is available.
How do we mind our own business when we are being asked to pay for their business?

Maybe we should put you to sleep. That's what they usually do with things that froth at the mouth...
Look, just because you can't ever get laid, doesn't mean that everyone plans it out. Sometimes it just happens.

It never just happens. You have to have sex for it to happen unless you are saying that there are a lot of mother marys running around.

 

[JoeB131]

How do you keep someone from murdering anyone? You can prevent it but you do make it a felony murder charge.

Except that even before Roe v. Wade, women were NEVER arrested for having abortions. The last time that happened was 1922. And that was before Roe, not after women are used to having abortion for 40 years. So saying "I'm going to make a law", maybe you should look up Prohibition and see how well making a law no one obeys really works.

That is because it is universal health care and it takes so long to get an appointment to get the abortion that most people have the baby before the appointment is available.

This is where i have to kind of conclude you are sort of a child-like retard who doesn't have a passport and has never been outside the US. Universal health care works fine in teh rest of the world, and no one is clamoring to be "just like the Americans".

It never just happens. You have to have sex for it to happen unless you are saying that there are a lot of mother marys running around.

Yes, little Tommy, and some day, some woman might actually consent to have sex with you and you'll understand.

 

[miami_thomas]

Except that even before Roe v. Wade, women were NEVER arrested for having abortions. The last time that happened was 1922. And that was before Roe, not after women are used to having abortion for 40 years. So saying "I'm going to make a law", maybe you should look up Prohibition and see how well making a law no one obeys really works.

Maybe we should make everything legal and stop arresting anyone since it is no use. The question is not about a woman’s right it is a question of whether the unborn child has a right to live. If it is illegal for a mother to drown her children in the bath tub, then why is it not illegal to kill a baby in her womb?

This is where i have to kind of conclude you are sort of a child-like retard who doesn't have a passport and has never been outside the US. Universal health care works fine in teh rest of the world, and no one is clamoring to be "just like the Americans".

Then that is where you would be wrong. I have been around the world and have witnessed victims and was myself almost a casualty of Universal Health Care. I should have been dead at three years old thanks to Universal Health Care and I was lucky my parents came back to the US and toke me to children’s hospital. Had they not done it I would have died because an x-ray was just too expensive for government to pay for. Universal Health Care is great as long as you are not very sick.

Yes, little Tommy, and some day, some woman might actually consent to have sex with you and you'll understand.

I have a daughter that is 19 years old. I’m 36 years old and I will let you do the math. It was hard for both the mother and I but we both completed high school and college. My daughter is now in college herself. My parents and her parents were both lower middle class. I can’t even imagine the thought that we may have aborted my daughter and the thought that someone else is killing their child before they even have a chance just because it would be too much work. Shame on them and shame on you for making excuses for them.

 

[JoeB131]

Maybe we should make everything legal and stop arresting anyone since it is no use. The question is not about a woman’s right it is a question of whether the unborn child has a right to live. If it is illegal for a mother to drown her children in the bath tub, then why is it not illegal to kill a baby in her womb?

No, it's not, since there is no universal agreement that a fetus is a person. There would be universal agreement that drowning a baby in a bathtub is a crime... and no one would have a problem convicting on that basis. The baby can live outside the womb, the fetus can't.

Then that is where you would be wrong. I have been around the world and have witnessed victims and was myself almost a casualty of Universal Health Care. I should have been dead at three years old thanks to Universal Health Care and I was lucky my parents came back to the US and toke me to children’s hospital. Had they not done it I would have died because an x-ray was just too expensive for government to pay for. Universal Health Care is great as long as you are not very sick.

I notice your description here is massively short on details, such as which country and what the condition was. In any event, the fact is, the industrialized countries that have universal health care have a lower infant and child mortality rate than we do. So your story, if true, would seem to be the exception, not the rule. We have children who die here every day becaue their parents don't have insurance. Or they have insurance, but they insurance companies decided their pediatric cancer was a "pre-existing condition."

I have a daughter that is 19 years old. I’m 36 years old and I will let you do the math. It was hard for both the mother and I but we both completed high school and college. My daughter is now in college herself. My parents and her parents were both lower middle class. I can’t even imagine the thought that we may have aborted my daughter and the thought that someone else is killing their child before they even have a chance just because it would be too much work. Shame on them and shame on you for making excuses for them.

So what you are admitting is that sex happened and you didn't plan on a pregnancy and got one anyway...

I think you kind of proved my point.

 

[miami_thomas]

"No, it's not, since there is no universal agreement that a fetus is a person. There would be universal agreement that drowning a baby in a bathtub is a crime... and no one would have a problem convicting on that basis. The baby can live outside the womb, the fetus can't."
A Baby cannot survive without someone taking care of the baby. At least the last time I checked, a baby is not born with the ability to feed by themselves.

I notice your description here is massively short on details, such as which country and what the condition was. In any event, the fact is, the industrialized countries that have universal health care have a lower infant and child mortality rate than we do. So your story, if true, would seem to be the exception, not the rule. We have children who die here every day becaue their parents don't have insurance. Or they have insurance, but they insurance companies decided their pediatric cancer was a "pre-existing condition."

I was born with a Diaphragmatic hernia and the universal health care I was under was that of the United States Army. I was constantly throwing up and my parents were told it was the flu at first then they told them I was faking it. Think about that one for a second a three years old faking it. My parents then took me to the hospitals in Germany and got the same information. My mother then took me by herself to the children’s hospital in Birmingham Alabama. It took them all of 15 minutes to discover I needed to go into emergency surgery. When I got the surgery I was 5 years old. The doctor told my mother it was a miracle I had survived that long.

As for others I have seen, I have seen a friend die in South Korea due to poor health care in the government hospitals. I was stationed in an isolated location and there was no Army hospital. You would not have believed the conditions in that hospital if I told you. Another was just last year I had a friend that was a dual citizen in both the US and Aruba. She got pregnant and decide to go through the pregnancy in Aruba. Mistakes were made and her baby was born dead. Ever attend a funeral with such a small casket. She tried to sue but you can’t sue the government of any country. She got pregnant again and I will let you guess where she had this child. By the way, it was a successful birth.

Now your turn can you please provide these examples you described in the evil America where everyone has access to “Health Care” even in the absence of health insurance. I have worked in the health insurance industry for the last 15 years. I can tell you the things you speak of happen in other countries far more than in this country they just do not get reported. I can tell you many people with cancer come to this country for treatment rather than go to countries with Universal Health Care. Look up Oregon woman refused treatment but state government for cancer.

So what you are admitting is that sex happened and you didn't plan on a pregnancy and got one anyway...
I think you kind of proved my point.

We took responsibility for our actions we did not kill our daughter to pay for it.

 

[JoeB131]

A Baby cannot survive without someone taking care of the baby. At least the last time I checked, a baby is not born with the ability to feed by themselves.

True enough. BUt anyone can feed the baby if the mother decides she doesn't want to deal with that shit. Now, when we can take fetuses out of wombs and put them into anti-abortion assholes, you might have an argument here.

United States Army...Germany....South Korea ..Aruba.

So two of your examples are underdeleopled countries, one is a military system not designed to treat children, and Germany. Sorry, not making a convincing case for "socialized medicine is Eeeeeevil". Your argument was that you couldn't get timely treatment, not that they made wrong diagnosis. 96,000 American die every year because of medical mistakes in this country.

We took responsibility for our actions we did not kill our daughter to pay for it.

Goody for you. Not seeing why everyone else has to live to your standard because of your silly religious beliefs.

 

[miami_thomas]

True enough. BUt anyone can feed the baby if the mother decides she doesn't want to deal with that shit. Now, when we can take fetuses out of wombs and put them into anti-abortion assholes, you might have an argument here.

Again don’t have sex and you don’t have to have an abortion.

So two of your examples are underdeleopled countries, one is a military system not designed to treat children, and Germany. Sorry, not making a convincing case for "socialized medicine is Eeeeeevil". Your argument was that you couldn't get timely treatment, not that they made wrong diagnosis. 96,000 American die every year because of medical mistakes in this country.

I never said that “socialized medicine” is evil. They weren’t trying to kill me it is just a trade off. With the system we have the hospitals are doctors are in it to make money and to avoid possible law suits. They will go overboard in ensuring that there is nothing wrong with you and if there is they treat it. Sure they make mistakes there is no perfect system. When it comes to “Socialized Medicine” they want to do as little as possible because there main concern is saving money. So when it comes to whether or not the give you a test is if they think you really need one. When they decide whether or not they are going to give you medicine they decide based on your chance to survive. They have the minimum number of beds and doctors to get the job done so you have to wait longer for services.

Goody for you. Not seeing why everyone else has to live to your standard because of your silly religious beliefs.

One I don’t believe in religion so that has nothing to do with my feelings. My standards are why does an unborn child have to die because two people decide to have unprotected sex? Now if you want to promote free services to where they can be castrated or have their tubes tied we can talk.

 

[Shelzin]

My opinion... That's all this is. Not directed at anybody, but it's pretty easy to see a circle jerk here.

I don't believe that dependency on surviving is a valid argument to be making in regards to abortion. I believe it should be about if you are killing a person or not. Not fetus, not a baby, no bullshit like that. A person.

IN which now the discussion become when is someone a person?

We already know that LIFE really doesn't mean anything to most people in this thread that are pro-choice. But killing a person does matter. As said by someone yeah... Killing a 1 year old is murder... Nobody questions that. Why? Because it's a person. A very young person... But a person. And actually I'm not sure person is a good term to use, but I haven't found one better as of yet. And a fetus is not a person until they start having the thing that separates us from other animals.

Just... My thoughts. Feel free not to respond to me in any fashion... Just... Trying to get rid of the circle jerk.

 

[miami_thomas]

My opinion... That's all this is. Not directed at anybody, but it's pretty easy to see a circle jerk here.

I don't believe that dependency on surviving is a valid argument to be making in regards to abortion. I believe it should be about if you are killing a person or not. Not fetus, not a baby, no bullshit like that. A person.

IN which now the discussion become when is someone a person?

We already know that LIFE really doesn't mean anything to most people in this thread that are pro-choice. But killing a person does matter. As said by someone yeah... Killing a 1 year old is murder... Nobody questions that. Why? Because it's a person. A very young person... But a person. And actually I'm not sure person is a good term to use, but I haven't found one better as of yet. And a fetus is not a person until they start having the thing that separates us from other animals.

Just... My thoughts. Feel free not to respond to me in any fashion... Just... Trying to get rid of the circle jerk.

I don’t think it is a “circle jerk” rather something that will never be agreed upon because of a difference in views on whether abortion is murder or no different than a woman deciding to go on a diet.

But look at it this way, if I were to suggest we go and offer free neutering to everyone do you think I would probably be called racist seeing most people wanting to do it would end up being the poor and minorities. But we are ok with offering free abortions regardless of the fact that most people doing it are the poor and the minorities. How is it no one sees it for what it is and that is a way to reduce the numbers. I always remembered seeing the MTV thing with “are you afraid of a black America?” Of course not, because they keep aborting at alarming rates and killing each other with gang violence.

How is it that so many blacks are for this? It is beyond me and I would think it would gain the racist label for Democrats but hey I never pretend this world is a just place.