10 nation healthcare poll

[Harry Dresden]

Crap. Epsilon has your hyperbole down. This is just as good as most of what is posted as critism of the present health care bills.

and here comes Fred Astaire the other dancer...

 

[elvis]

Crap. Epsilon has your hyperbole down. This is just as good as most of what is posted as critism of the present health care bills.

and here comes Fred Astaire the other dancer...

which would make Chris Ginger Rogers.

 

[Harry Dresden]

I like the French system the best.

Free medical schools, limited doctor liability, and they don't pay their doctors millions of dollars a year.

They cover everybody with no waits.

the shitstain called Ginger Rodgers is here to dance some more....

 

[elvis]

I like the French system the best.

Free medical schools, limited doctor liability, and they don't pay their doctors millions of dollars a year.

They cover everybody with no waits.

the shitstain called Ginger Rodgers is here to dance some more....

I thought it smelled like a starkist factory.

 

[Toro]

Ok, can you answer this? If we had an entire government run health care system where the government tells the doctors what they can charge, isn't that a price ceiling that will in effect ration health care?

Rationing occurs when the price of something is held below its cost, and that includes an appropriate return. If the price of health treatment is held below its cost plus return, then you will get shortages. The question then turns on "return." What is an appropriate rate of return? Are healthcare companies earning an appropriate return, an excess return or a low return? It is hard to say that most healthcare companies are earning a low return - they are not. So the question is whether or not they are earning an appropriate or an excess return. Excess returns can occur if companies have significant market power or if the government confers a monopoly on an unregulated product. The proponents of healthcare reform are effectively arguing that companies generate an excess return.

 

[Toro]

i didnt advocate banning foriegn sales
just that they had to be at the same rate they charge Americans
they could export as much as people wanted to buy

My bad.

But again, I do not know how the government would enforce such a pricing policy without violating trade laws.

Plus, it is perfectly rational for the drug companies to charge an amount lower in foreign countries if their fixed costs are paid in the US and they can charge an amount abroad that exceeds variable costs.

 

[veritas]

Ok, can you answer this? If we had an entire government run health care system where the government tells the doctors what they can charge, isn't that a price ceiling that will in effect ration health care?

Rationing occurs when the price of something is held below its cost, and that includes an appropriate return. If the price of health treatment is held below its cost plus return, then you will get shortages. The question then turns on "return." What is an appropriate rate of return? Are healthcare companies earning an appropriate return, an excess return or a low return? It is hard to say that most healthcare companies are earning a low return - they are not. So the question is whether or not they are earning an appropriate or an excess return. Excess returns can occur if companies have significant market power or if the government confers a monopoly on an unregulated product. The proponents of healthcare reform are effectively arguing that companies generate an excess return.

Don't commingle health care providers with insurance companies. The insurance companies already have set amounts that they will pay for certain services to the health care providers. Medicare and Medicaid do as well.

 

[DiveCon]

i didnt advocate banning foriegn sales
just that they had to be at the same rate they charge Americans
they could export as much as people wanted to buy

My bad.

But again, I do not know how the government would enforce such a pricing policy without violating trade laws.

Plus, it is perfectly rational for the drug companies to charge an amount lower in foreign countries if their fixed costs are paid in the US and they can charge an amount abroad that exceeds variable costs.

how about we dont want to be the only ones paying for the R&D
make the actual cost of the meds the same for everyone
the idea that they can charge US customers more for the same meds is ridiculous

 

[elvis]

i didnt advocate banning foriegn sales
just that they had to be at the same rate they charge Americans
they could export as much as people wanted to buy

My bad.

But again, I do not know how the government would enforce such a pricing policy without violating trade laws.

Plus, it is perfectly rational for the drug companies to charge an amount lower in foreign countries if their fixed costs are paid in the US and they can charge an amount abroad that exceeds variable costs.

If the government sets a limit of $3.00 per gallon on gasoline, but the demand exceeds $3.00, there's a gas shortage. How is that different with health care?

 

[DiveCon]

Ok, can you answer this? If we had an entire government run health care system where the government tells the doctors what they can charge, isn't that a price ceiling that will in effect ration health care?

Rationing occurs when the price of something is held below its cost, and that includes an appropriate return. If the price of health treatment is held below its cost plus return, then you will get shortages. The question then turns on "return." What is an appropriate rate of return? Are healthcare companies earning an appropriate return, an excess return or a low return? It is hard to say that most healthcare companies are earning a low return - they are not. So the question is whether or not they are earning an appropriate or an excess return. Excess returns can occur if companies have significant market power or if the government confers a monopoly on an unregulated product. The proponents of healthcare reform are effectively arguing that companies generate an excess return.

Don't commingle health care providers with insurance companies. The insurance companies already have set amounts that they will pay for certain services to the health care providers. Medicare and Medicaid do as well.

just as health insurance companies should be able to get special pricing either
there should be a fixed price for the cost of the med
shouldnt matter if you pay cash or have insurance

 

[veritas]

If the government sets a limit of $3.00 per gallon on gasoline, but the demand exceeds $3.00, there's a gas shortage. How is that different with health care?

It's very different. The players in the oil biz are few. They buy and sell and gamble based on projected usage. They are also necessarily very well capitalized and can afford to sit and wait until the price point goes up or down, since they bet both ways. Doctors and hospitals are not commodities that can be held in huge abatement like oil and gas. They are individuals and smaller businesses with payrolls and overhead and regular market conditions.

 

[elvis]

If the government sets a limit of $3.00 per gallon on gasoline, but the demand exceeds $3.00, there's a gas shortage. How is that different with health care?

It's very different. The players in the oil biz are few. They buy and sell and gamble based on projected usage. They are also necessarily very well capitalized and can afford to sit and wait until the price point goes up or down, since they bet both ways. Doctors and hospitals are not commodities that can be held in huge abatement like oil and gas. They are individuals and smaller businesses with payrolls and overhead and regular market conditions.

alright, since there is an oligopoly present with gasoline, we'll use rent controls as an example instead.

 

[Toro]

i didnt advocate banning foriegn sales
just that they had to be at the same rate they charge Americans
they could export as much as people wanted to buy

My bad.

But again, I do not know how the government would enforce such a pricing policy without violating trade laws.

Plus, it is perfectly rational for the drug companies to charge an amount lower in foreign countries if their fixed costs are paid in the US and they can charge an amount abroad that exceeds variable costs.

If the government sets a limit of $3.00 per gallon on gasoline, but the demand exceeds $3.00, there's a gas shortage. How is that different with health care?

You do it by shifting the cost curves down.

If there is excessive profits in the system, or excessive costs, if you take those out, the supply curve will shift from S0 to S1. This will lower prices and increase demand.

The argument by the proponents of healthcare reform are that you can shift the cost curves down. Those opposing reform say you cannot.

 

[veritas]

If the government sets a limit of $3.00 per gallon on gasoline, but the demand exceeds $3.00, there's a gas shortage. How is that different with health care?

It's very different. The players in the oil biz are few. They buy and sell and gamble based on projected usage. They are also necessarily very well capitalized and can afford to sit and wait until the price point goes up or down, since they bet both ways. Doctors and hospitals are not commodities that can be held in huge abatement like oil and gas. They are individuals and smaller businesses with payrolls and overhead and regular market conditions.

alright, since there is an oligopoly present with gasoline, we'll use rent controls as an example instead.

I don't see how rent controls are comparable in any way. How do rent controls contract availability? They seek to expand it.

 

[elvis]

My bad.

But again, I do not know how the government would enforce such a pricing policy without violating trade laws.

Plus, it is perfectly rational for the drug companies to charge an amount lower in foreign countries if their fixed costs are paid in the US and they can charge an amount abroad that exceeds variable costs.

If the government sets a limit of $3.00 per gallon on gasoline, but the demand exceeds $3.00, there's a gas shortage. How is that different with health care?

You do it by shifting the cost curves down.

If there is excessive profits in the system, or excessive costs, if you take those out, the supply curve will shift from S0 to S1. This will lower prices and increase demand.

The argument by the proponents of healthcare reform are that you can shift the cost curves down. Those opposing reform say you cannot.

What's entailed in these costs?

 

[elvis]

It's very different. The players in the oil biz are few. They buy and sell and gamble based on projected usage. They are also necessarily very well capitalized and can afford to sit and wait until the price point goes up or down, since they bet both ways. Doctors and hospitals are not commodities that can be held in huge abatement like oil and gas. They are individuals and smaller businesses with payrolls and overhead and regular market conditions.

alright, since there is an oligopoly present with gasoline, we'll use rent controls as an example instead.

I don't see how rent controls are comparable in any way. How do rent controls contract availability? They seek to expand it.

when NYC put rent controls in place, the result was there was a shortage of apartments available. Same was true of other cities.

 

[Toro]

What's entailed in these costs?

Government monopoly i.e. patents, preferential laws, tort insurance, too many tests, etc.

The other thing the proponents of reform argue is that excess profits occur because of structural issues. If they are correct, at P1, the area of the triangle between P1, the supply and demand curves and P2 is excess profits. These excess profits are captured by the healthcare companies. By forcing prices down to P2, demand increases as prices fall.

If, on the other hand as you say, if the market is at price P2 and there are no excessive costs or profits, if prices are forced to P3, shortages will occur.

Again, I am not necessarily making a particular argument. I am just explaining the economics of what the proponents are arguing.

 

[veritas]

alright, since there is an oligopoly present with gasoline, we'll use rent controls as an example instead.

I don't see how rent controls are comparable in any way. How do rent controls contract availability? They seek to expand it.

when NYC put rent controls in place, the result was there was a shortage of apartments available. Same was true of other cities.

If there was a shortage of apartments then that implies highest and best use through rent control was achieved. There would be no incentives to not rent and let the properties lay empty. This in turn spurs more construction to fill the demand which sets up another tier of consumers, either in new construction or rehabs or whatever, and this spurs other ancillary employment, banking and increases the tax base, while the rent controlled tier operates concurrently. It is hard to compare real property and rentals which are constrained, especially in NY, to the area of the island itself, since land is infrangible and not movable and limited, to a model illustrating health care delivery which is mostly services.

 

[elvis]

What's entailed in these costs?

Government monopoly i.e. patents, preferential laws, tort insurance, too many tests, etc.

The other thing the proponents of reform argue is that excess profits occur because of structural issues. If they are correct, at P1, the area of the triangle between P1, the supply and demand curves and P2 is excess profits. These excess profits are captured by the healthcare companies. By forcing prices down to P2, demand increases as prices fall.

If, on the other hand as you say, if the market is at price P2 and there are no excessive costs or profits, if prices are forced to P3, shortages will occur.

Again, I am not necessarily making a particular argument. I am just explaining the economics of what the proponents are arguing.

when you use words like government monopoly, that doesn't sound like capitalism is the issue. It sounds like..... Mussolini's definition of fascism is the issue. ie. "marriage between government and big business".

 

[veritas]

What's entailed in these costs?

Government monopoly i.e. patents, preferential laws, tort insurance, too many tests, etc.

The other thing the proponents of reform argue is that excess profits occur because of structural issues. If they are correct, at P1, the area of the triangle between P1, the supply and demand curves and P2 is excess profits. These excess profits are captured by the healthcare companies. By forcing prices down to P2, demand increases as prices fall.

If, on the other hand as you say, if the market is at price P2 and there are no excessive costs or profits, if prices are forced to P3, shortages will occur.

Again, I am not necessarily making a particular argument. I am just explaining the economics of what the proponents are arguing.

when you use words like government monopoly, that doesn't sound like capitalism is the issue. It sounds like..... Mussolini's definition of fascism is the issue. ie. "marriage between government and big business".

Heck, they've been married and have great great grandchildren!!!! That's the problem.