Zalensky unhappy about peace.

[Donald H]

Not sure what your point is here. When Trump fucks up and tries to prevent the people from throwing him out, you'll be amazed how messy things will get.

The mess can be avoided if the government, CIA, etc. eliminate Trump. That would cause the entire Maga house of cards to fall.
No mess to deal with.

But that only becomes necessary if Trump dares to end the war with concessions to Russia.

 

[daveman]

The mess can be avoided if the government, CIA, etc. eliminate Trump. That would cause the entire Maga house of cards to fall.
No mess to deal with.

But that only becomes necessary if Trump dares to end the war with concessions to Russia.

Dude. They're not going to get rid of the man. Your fantasy is simply not rooted in reality.

 

[JoeB131]

You know, not a single one of your prophesies of doom came about during Trump's first term.

Are you fucking serious?

Trump's first term had FAR worse things happening than what his critics predicted.

Plauge
Recession
Riots in the Streets

Why do you guys always pretend 2020 didn't happen?

 

[daveman]

Are you fucking serious?

Trump's first term had FAR worse things happening than what his critics predicted.

Plauge

Created by Democrats.

Recession

Created by Democrat governors.

Riots in the Streets

Created and encouraged by Democrats.

Why do you guys always pretend 2020 didn't happen?

Why do you pretend Trump did every bad thing ever?

Oh, yes -- because you were told to.

 

[Donald H]

Dude. They're not going to get rid of the man. Your fantasy is simply not rooted in reality.

Only if it's not necessary to whack Trump.

It already looks like he's no threat.

Trump can't end America's war against Russia but he wants Americans to think he can for a while longer.

Then he will use the excuse for not ending it by telling them that Russia/Putin won't cooperate with his terms.

Don't forget, it's a life or death struggle for Russia too, as well as it is for America. It's America's last opportunity, on account of the Brics superppwer dethroning America.

 

[JoeB131]

Only if it's not necessary to whack Trump.

It already looks like he's no threat.

Trump can't end America's war against Russia but he wants Americans to think he can for a while longer.

Then he will use the excuse for not ending it by telling them that Russia/Putin won't cooperate with his terms.

Don't forget, it's a life or death struggle for Russia too, as well as it is for America. It's America's last opportunity, on account of the Brics superppwer dethroning America.

How is it a life and death struggle for Russia.

They give back the Donbas. Russia will be fine.

 

[Donald H]

How is it a life and death struggle for Russia.

I shouldn't have to tell you again. So just think of it as my opinion.

First, Russia isn't giving back anything.

It's a war between America and Russia. America decided to create the threat to Russia so that Russia would be pushed to drawing a line in the sand. If America can defeat Russia then the future against China and the Brics alliance is much more favourable.

You know about the PNAC as well as I do Joe, and that blew the cover.

And of course Russia can't afford to lose either.

Which side is going to prevail?

I don't feel any need to argue the point but I'm interested in your version on how it will play out in America's favour.

I'll just add now: I'm pretty confident that it won't end with nuclear. There's no win for either side in that..

They give back the Donbas. Russia will be fine.

I'm pretty sure that Russia won't find that acceptable.

 

[JoeB131]

I shouldn't have to tell you again. So just think of it as my opinion.

First, Russia isn't giving back anything.

It's a war between America and Russia. America decided to create the threat to Russia so that Russia would be pushed to drawing a line in the sand. If America can defeat Russia then the future against China and the Brics alliance is much more favourable.

Uh, wow, really? So America "made" Russia attempt to overthrow the Ukrainian government, and when they failed to do that, we made them fight a largely pointless war over the eastern provinces.

You sound like an abusive husband who after beating the snot out of his wife, screams, "Why did you make me do that?"

You know about the PNAC as well as I do Joe, and that blew the cover.

Um, okay, that conspiracy theory is about 20 years too old. I think they've moved on to "WTO" and "Globalists" as the people who are supposedly making your life sad.

And of course Russia can't afford to lose either.

Which side is going to prevail?

I don't feel any need to argue the point but I'm interested in your version on how it will play out in America's favour.

Well, if we didn't have a president who was a Putin Puppet, continuing to do what we were doing was just fine. The Russians are having to drag in North Koreans to do the fighting for them. They are pulling old tanks out of museums because they can't build new ones as quickly as the Ukrainians are blowing them up. They are pulling sailors off ships to fight as infantry. Russia simply isn't in good shape and needs peace more than Ukraine does.

Now, my thought on a compromise would be this

1) Russia gets to keep Crimea.
2) The Donbas is placed under UN administration until a plebiscite can be held in 10 years over who gets it.
3) Russia vacates Kherson and Zaporohza province.
4) Ukraine is allowed to join the EU.
5) Ukraine doesn't join NATO, but NATO forces can be deployed in Ukraine as guarantors of the peace.
6) Russia pays reparations to Ukraine for war damage.

I'll just add now: I'm pretty confident that it won't end with nuclear. There's no win for either side in that..

If Putin is such a maniac he's willing to blow up the world over the fucking Donbas, you guys really need to look into removing him. (Has anyone else noticed our resident Russian trolls are a lot more active than usual?)

I'm pretty sure that Russia won't find that acceptable.

Then they shouldn't have started the war.

 

[Donald H]

Uh, wow, really?

The rest of your act isn't worth my time.

Now, my thought on a compromise would be this

1) Russia gets to keep Crimea.
2) The Donbas is placed under UN administration until a plebiscite can be held in 10 years over who gets it.
3) Russia vacates Kherson and Zaporohza province.
4) Ukraine is allowed to join the EU.
5) Ukraine doesn't join NATO, but NATO forces can be deployed in Ukraine as guarantors of the peace.
6) Russia pays reparations to Ukraine for war damage.

But that part could be worth discussion?

1. It's interesting that you show doubt on the Crimea. I think the Crimea has to be a part of the eventual deal. it has to be all the Donbas and the Crimea or nothing. Why the compromise?
2. I don't see a pleg or a referendum in the cards for America. It would be as certain for Russia as the Crimea referendum.
3. Same as 2 above in my opinion.
4. Sure, why not? The Ukraune might be accepted by the EU.
5. That's an interesting concept that I haven't spent time on. For a wild guess, that would appear to need America's victory first.
We could have an interestinig discussion on Nato's article 5, if you are aware of what it implies. In any case, we know that there are very serious thoughts on Nato not surviving?? Let's get this straight between us. If the Ukraine was allowed that, or admittance to Nato, Russia could bomb them into the stone age and America couldn't respond without going nuclear. It's the obvious reason why the Ukraine can't be allowed in, in the last 3 years. It would be making a joke of their article 5. I think you should at least understand that much.
6. I'm not interested in even considering that now, as the situation stands. If it ends in allout conventional war with America vs. Russia, can America win? The reason why it's questioned is because Russia could have superior weaponry that would allow them to destroy nearly all America's foreign placed military bases and kill all aircraft carriers that are suspected to be sitting ducks?

I'm not completely settled on those propositions yet? But you must know of there being some very serious informed opinions on those possibilities. Some even consider Russia, China, and lately Iran, to be the world's leading combined superpower.

I can't rule that out, but otherwise I'm not here to debate from our armchairs. I'm only interested in your opinion.

 

[daveman]

Saw this on Facebook.

Many of you probably watched what took place between Donald Trump and Zelenskyy tonight. Whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, you might be thinking to yourself, Oh my God, Donald Trump just screwed up.

However, as a lifelong practitioner of martial arts, strategy, and philosophy, let me explain the difference between what you believe you witnessed and what actually happened.

Donald Trump has been under constant political persecution since the beginning of his first term. Over time, he has learned to be patient and calculated.

Tonight, Zelenskyy was invited to the Oval Office. However, both Trump and JD Vance knew exactly what Zelenskyy was going to do—he would use this opportunity, in front of the American people, to make a power play. Both Trump and Vance anticipated this.

When Zelenskyy began appealing to the emotions of the American people, JD Vance stepped in, accusing him of disrespecting Donald Trump. This was brilliant strategy. It’s important to understand that Zelenskyy is trying to gain access to NATO.
Trump knew this but could not allow it to happen. If Ukraine joins NATO, the U.S. would be bound by NATO’s collective defense agreement—an attack on one is an attack on all.

Now consider the larger implications: Ukraine and Russia despise each other. If Ukraine were to become a NATO member, any future skirmish between them would obligate the U.S. to enter into direct conflict with Russia. This would mean World War III. And if that happened, China would have to choose a side—they would almost certainly align with Russia.

So what you witnessed tonight was a setup. Trump and JD Vance knew that the only way to achieve peace was to strategically align, at least on the surface, with Russia. Why? Because Russia would never sign a peace treaty if Ukraine were admitted into NATO.

This is why Trump dismantled Zelenskyy’s argument. And when Zelenskyy, seeing his play failing, tried to backtrack and offer a treaty, Trump refused.

Zelenskyy’s real intent was clear—he would not agree to peace unless security guarantees were in place. But what was he actually saying? That NATO must accept Ukraine. However, Russia would never agree to peace, knowing that NATO, their historical adversary, would surround them.

Zelenskyy, Putin, and Trump all knew this. Zelenskyy, thinking he had Democratic support, believed he could make this bold move on live television. But Trump and Vance saw right through it and outmaneuvered him.

They knew that, in the short term, Democrats and the media would try to use this moment against them. But they also knew they had two years before midterms to prove their strategy was the right one. So they held their ground—brilliantly so.

Now, Zelenskyy will have no choice but to back down and accept Trump's terms. But here’s the genius part—Trump is actually protecting Ukraine without dragging the U.S. into war.

By negotiating a mineral deal, Trump ensures that Americans will be involved in Ukraine’s mining industry. This prevents Russia from launching an invasion, because attacking Ukraine would mean endangering American lives—something that would force the U.S. to respond.

Trump played both sides like a master chess player. In the end, Zelenskyy will have no choice but to concede, because without U.S. support, Ukraine cannot win a prolonged war against Russia. And once U.S. companies have mining operations in Ukraine, Putin will be unable to attack without triggering massive international consequences.

Don’t underestimate Donald Trump. In this game of chess, he’s 10 moves ahead of everyone.

 

[ding]

Trump has been honest and stated several times that America started the war and is to blame.

That would make Putin Trump's bitch, right?

 

[ding]

If it ends in allout conventional war with America vs. Russia, can America win?

Yes. Absolutely. We would make Russia our bitch.

 

[ding]

The reason why it's questioned is because Russia could have superior weaponry...

 

[ding]

Some even consider Russia, China, and lately Iran, to be the world's leading combined superpower.

 

[ding]

Dude. They're not going to get rid of the man. Your fantasy is simply not rooted in reality.

That's Donald H for ya, he's rooted in absurdities.

 

[ding]

Only if it's not necessary to whack Trump.

It already looks like he's no threat.

Trump can't end America's war against Russia but he wants Americans to think he can for a while longer.

Then he will use the excuse for not ending it by telling them that Russia/Putin won't cooperate with his terms.

Don't forget, it's a life or death struggle for Russia too, as well as it is for America. It's America's last opportunity, on account of the Brics superppwer dethroning America.

According to you, Putin is Trump's bitch.

 

[ding]

I shouldn't have to tell you again. So just think of it as my opinion. First, Russia isn't giving back anything. It's a war between America and Russia. America decided to create the threat to Russia so that Russia would be pushed to drawing a line in the sand. If America can defeat Russia then the future against China and the Brics alliance is much more favourable. You know about the PNAC as well as I do Joe, and that blew the cover. And of course Russia can't afford to lose either. Which side is going to prevail? I don't feel any need to argue the point but I'm interested in your version on how it will play out in America's favour. I'll just add now: I'm pretty confident that it won't end with nuclear. There's no win for either side in that.. I'm pretty sure that Russia won't find that acceptable.

America is the 800 lb gorilla in the room. It doesn't matter what the monkeys find acceptable.

 

[JoeB131]

But that part could be worth discussion?

1. It's interesting that you show doubt on the Crimea. I think the Crimea has to be a part of the eventual deal. it has to be all the Donbas and the Crimea or nothing. Why the compromise?

I think the Russians might have a more legitimate claim to Crimea because it was only assigned to the Ukrainian SSR by Krushev in the 1950s. Before that, it was considered part of Russia and 90% of its population is Russian.

2. I don't see a pleg or a referendum in the cards for America. It would be as certain for Russia as the Crimea referendum.

This isn't about America. Why are you blaming America for a war YOU Started, Ivan?

3. Same as 2 above in my opinion.

Actually, that might be the easiest concession for Russia to make, as these provinces are predominately Ukrainian and ruling over them will be a cost in resources and manpower Russia can ill afford.

4. Sure, why not? The Ukraune might be accepted by the EU.

5. That's an interesting concept that I haven't spent time on. For a wild guess, that would appear to need America's victory first.
We could have an interestinig discussion on Nato's article 5, if you are aware of what it implies. In any case, we know that there are very serious thoughts on Nato not surviving?? Let's get this straight between us. If the Ukraine was allowed that, or admittance to Nato, Russia could bomb them into the stone age and America couldn't respond without going nuclear. It's the obvious reason why the Ukraine can't be allowed in, in the last 3 years. It would be making a joke of their article 5. I think you should at least understand that much.

Again, we are talking about compromises. If left up to me, I'd tighten up the sanctions on Russia until their economy collapsed.

But if you are talking to a path to peace, this would be one that all sides should be able to accept. Russia gets some potential territorial gains, Ukraine gets security guarantees.

6. I'm not interested in even considering that now, as the situation stands. If it ends in allout conventional war with America vs. Russia, can America win? The reason why it's questioned is because Russia could have superior weaponry that would allow them to destroy nearly all America's foreign placed military bases and kill all aircraft carriers that are suspected to be sitting ducks?

Russia's conventional military is a fucking joke. Hey, how about the Admiral Kustonov? Oh, wait, it's still in drydock and all her sailors have been sent to the front as infantry? And it wouldn't stand a chance against even ONE Nimitz class carrier, much less the 10 we have.

They are breaking old tanks out of museums because the Ukrainians are blowing up their up faster than they can build new ones.

I'm not completely settled on those propositions yet? But you must know of there being some very serious informed opinions on those possibilities. Some even consider Russia, China, and lately Iran, to be the world's leading combined superpower.

I wouldn't know what kind of idiot would consider that. Iran just got her ass handed to her by the Zionists in Syria and Lebanon (and I hate the Zionists, so that's hard for me to admit). And frankly, I don't think Russia should be so keen on a policy of "That used to be ours" when China starts looking lovingly at Outer Manchuria.

I can't rule that out, but otherwise I'm not here to debate from our armchairs. I'm only interested in your opinion.

Well, I gave it to you. But I think what's more likely to happen is that the war will grind on, Europe will pick up the slack until public opinion shames Trump into doing the right thing, and we'll be back where we started.

 

[JoeB131]

Don’t underestimate Donald Trump. In this game of chess, he’s 10 moves ahead of everyone.

Dave, stop drinking the...

 

[daveman]

Dave, stop drinking the...

View attachment 1084880

Oh, you're not angry that I'm drinking bleach. You're angry that I'm not drinking your cult's Kool-Aid.