Would you support subsidizing...

[Mac-7]

The

Low unemployment but low wages in many dead end jobs

we can do better

Yes we can. We have plenty of jobs and lots of wealth. It’s not a trade issue that our workers aren’t being paid well. The wealth to do it is here.

wrong

this is all about trade with dirt poor countries that drive down wages for Americans

We have low unemployment and tons of wealth. There is no reason our wages shouldn’t be higher. The wealth is here to pay them.

I think you mean pinheads in washington who never ran a lemonade stand telling businessmen how much to pay their employees

thats a recipe for diaster

I don’t mean anything. I’m giving you the facts. Unemployment has been super low and we have more than enough wealth. Workers not getting paid is obviously an internal problem. If unemployment was really high you might have a point. Under these circumstances it’s obviously an internal problem.

Globalism causes low wages in America

 

[Brain357]

The

Yes we can. We have plenty of jobs and lots of wealth. It’s not a trade issue that our workers aren’t being paid well. The wealth to do it is here.

wrong

this is all about trade with dirt poor countries that drive down wages for Americans

We have low unemployment and tons of wealth. There is no reason our wages shouldn’t be higher. The wealth is here to pay them.

I think you mean pinheads in washington who never ran a lemonade stand telling businessmen how much to pay their employees

thats a recipe for diaster

I don’t mean anything. I’m giving you the facts. Unemployment has been super low and we have more than enough wealth. Workers not getting paid is obviously an internal problem. If unemployment was really high you might have a point. Under these circumstances it’s obviously an internal problem.

Globalism causes low wages in America

We have really low unemployment, there is no reason globalism would be causing low wages. We have jobs and wealth.

 

[Andylusion]

But that would be true here as well.

Remember the outbreak hit China first. So mask demand spiked there to start with. If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

By the time the demand hit the US, all existing stock would already be on the ocean waters between here and China.

It's a global market. That's how it is.

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

That is technically true. The problem is, building them here, would double the price. No matter how good the iPhone is relative to android phones, at some price level, everyone will just go Android.

Let us even suggest that you eliminate all other phones, so the iPhone is the only option, and you can only buy from a Union shop in the US.

The iPhone would end up a luxury item, and everyone would simply make do without. Since the sales would be so small, Apple would simply not make them domestically, and the rich elites would just pay the tariff.

Either way, you are not going to Union US employees building iPhones. The math doesn't work. It will never happen.

You people seem to think that if we force people to buy domestically, that people will just cough up the money and pay the price. No they won't.

I'm not sure why this is a hard concept. If government mandated that oil changes cost $100... would you still pay someone to do your oil change? No, you'd do yourself. Or have a backyard mechanic do it for you.

You would never just cough up the $100... because I have no choice.

Just like fast food joints. If you jack up the minimum wage, and people have to pay $15 for a cheap burger, because the minimum wage is high.... people are not going to keep going to McDonald's for a cheap burger that costs $15. They will just find other ways to eat, and all those highly paid burger flippers will be unemployed.

At the very very very best possible outcome of your plan......

Apple makes an automated facilities that employs 3 guys to press the start button, and the iPhones are built by automation.

And you still won't have thousands of Union employees making iPhones. So no matter which way you go with this, there will never be union employees making iPhones by hand in the US. It will never happen. Never.

I think only a few people at Apple know how much more it would cost

and they arent saying

there would be higher wages, healthcare and government mandated regulation costs over china

but double the price?

who knows?

there is however a huge ripple affect that will help many Americans instead of the chinese

Higher prices do not help Americans.

If the price of everything goes up, because of a lack of trade... the standard of living must by necessity go down.

Protectionist anti-trade policies will help a very small select few Americans, at the expense of the entire rest of society.

If you doubt that.... why do we enact protectionism against other countries as punishment?

By your logic, putting in sanctions against Russia, should have resulted in Russia having an economic boom. Instead, the standard of living declined, as trade dried up, and Russians found the economy tanking.

Protectionism, never works to the benefit of those who engage in it.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

 

[Mac-7]

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

I think only a few people at Apple know how much more it would cost

and they arent saying

there would be higher wages, healthcare and government mandated regulation costs over china

but double the price?

who knows?

there is however a huge ripple affect that will help many Americans instead of the chinese

Higher prices do not help Americans.

If the price of everything goes up, because of a lack of trade... the standard of living must by necessity go down.

Protectionist anti-trade policies will help a very small select few Americans, at the expense of the entire rest of society.

If you doubt that.... why do we enact protectionism against other countries as punishment?

By your logic, putting in sanctions against Russia, should have resulted in Russia having an economic boom. Instead, the standard of living declined, as trade dried up, and Russians found the economy tanking.

Protectionism, never works to the benefit of those who engage in it.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

How much steel does china import from America?

thats how much we should allow them to export to us

 

[Mac-7]

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

I think only a few people at Apple know how much more it would cost

and they arent saying

there would be higher wages, healthcare and government mandated regulation costs over china

but double the price?

who knows?

there is however a huge ripple affect that will help many Americans instead of the chinese

Higher prices do not help Americans.

If the price of everything goes up, because of a lack of trade... the standard of living must by necessity go down.

Protectionist anti-trade policies will help a very small select few Americans, at the expense of the entire rest of society.

If you doubt that.... why do we enact protectionism against other countries as punishment?

By your logic, putting in sanctions against Russia, should have resulted in Russia having an economic boom. Instead, the standard of living declined, as trade dried up, and Russians found the economy tanking.

Protectionism, never works to the benefit of those who engage in it.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

I think only a few people at Apple know how much more it would cost

and they arent saying

there would be higher wages, healthcare and government mandated regulation costs over china

but double the price?

who knows?

there is however a huge ripple affect that will help many Americans instead of the chinese

Higher prices do not help Americans.

If the price of everything goes up, because of a lack of trade... the standard of living must by necessity go down.

Protectionist anti-trade policies will help a very small select few Americans, at the expense of the entire rest of society.

If you doubt that.... why do we enact protectionism against other countries as punishment?

By your logic, putting in sanctions against Russia, should have resulted in Russia having an economic boom. Instead, the standard of living declined, as trade dried up, and Russians found the economy tanking.

Protectionism, never works to the benefit of those who engage in it.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

With the exception of russia none of those countries are strategic enemies of the United States

But china is

this is not strictly economic

 

[Andylusion]

The

Yes we can. We have plenty of jobs and lots of wealth. It’s not a trade issue that our workers aren’t being paid well. The wealth to do it is here.

wrong

this is all about trade with dirt poor countries that drive down wages for Americans

We have low unemployment and tons of wealth. There is no reason our wages shouldn’t be higher. The wealth is here to pay them.

I think you mean pinheads in washington who never ran a lemonade stand telling businessmen how much to pay their employees

thats a recipe for diaster

I don’t mean anything. I’m giving you the facts. Unemployment has been super low and we have more than enough wealth. Workers not getting paid is obviously an internal problem. If unemployment was really high you might have a point. Under these circumstances it’s obviously an internal problem.

Globalism causes low wages in America

Then why hasn't it caused low wages?

Do you really think wages in the US are low? Compared to where?

We are paid more in wages in the US, than anywhere in the world. Anywhere. Nordic countries? Significantly more. Europe? Significantly more. Asia? Dramatically more.

The US has been the most globalized economy, of any country, that has ever existed in human history, and we have been a global economy long before the term "Globalization" even existed.

By your logic, we should have the lower wages than China in the 1970s.

Meanwhile, every country that has openly engaged in protectionism, and isolated itself from the global economy.... which countries are those? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, pre-78 China? Pre-91 India?

Why do you think the richest cities on the planet, are all port cities? Singapore, Hong Kong, Toyko, Abu Dhabi, Daho, Dubai, Barcelona, LA / San Francisco, Chicago, Amsterdam, Toronto, San Diego.

You see a pattern? Obviously some locations are not port cities, like Paris and Madrid. But the vast majority of highly wealthy cities, are all port cities.

Why is that? Because trade and wealth, are directly connected.

 

[Andylusion]

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

Higher prices do not help Americans.

If the price of everything goes up, because of a lack of trade... the standard of living must by necessity go down.

Protectionist anti-trade policies will help a very small select few Americans, at the expense of the entire rest of society.

If you doubt that.... why do we enact protectionism against other countries as punishment?

By your logic, putting in sanctions against Russia, should have resulted in Russia having an economic boom. Instead, the standard of living declined, as trade dried up, and Russians found the economy tanking.

Protectionism, never works to the benefit of those who engage in it.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

How much steel does china import from America?

thats how much we should allow them to export to us

That's retarded.

That's like suggesting, you can't buy a new car, unless someone buys a new car from you.

That's idiotic.

 

[Andylusion]

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

Higher prices do not help Americans.

If the price of everything goes up, because of a lack of trade... the standard of living must by necessity go down.

Protectionist anti-trade policies will help a very small select few Americans, at the expense of the entire rest of society.

If you doubt that.... why do we enact protectionism against other countries as punishment?

By your logic, putting in sanctions against Russia, should have resulted in Russia having an economic boom. Instead, the standard of living declined, as trade dried up, and Russians found the economy tanking.

Protectionism, never works to the benefit of those who engage in it.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

Higher prices do not help Americans.

If the price of everything goes up, because of a lack of trade... the standard of living must by necessity go down.

Protectionist anti-trade policies will help a very small select few Americans, at the expense of the entire rest of society.

If you doubt that.... why do we enact protectionism against other countries as punishment?

By your logic, putting in sanctions against Russia, should have resulted in Russia having an economic boom. Instead, the standard of living declined, as trade dried up, and Russians found the economy tanking.

Protectionism, never works to the benefit of those who engage in it.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

With the exception of russia none of those countries are strategic enemies of the United States

But china is

this is not strictly economic

Well, there is an argument to be made for that.

I would also suggest that it was specifically because we cut off trade with Japan, that sparked hostilities, and resulted in the US entering into World War 2.

That said, again, China is an exceptionally small trade partner. Contrary to popularly opinion, losing the American market, will cause small waves in the Chinese economy, stoking up hatred for the US, and support for the Chinese government.

But what it will not do, is stop the advancement of the Chinese economy, and growth of the Chinese military capabilities.

So I do understand the context of that argument, but I am skeptical of whatever claimed benefit there will be.

 

[Mac-7]

The
wrong

this is all about trade with dirt poor countries that drive down wages for Americans

We have low unemployment and tons of wealth. There is no reason our wages shouldn’t be higher. The wealth is here to pay them.

I think you mean pinheads in washington who never ran a lemonade stand telling businessmen how much to pay their employees

thats a recipe for diaster

I don’t mean anything. I’m giving you the facts. Unemployment has been super low and we have more than enough wealth. Workers not getting paid is obviously an internal problem. If unemployment was really high you might have a point. Under these circumstances it’s obviously an internal problem.

Globalism causes low wages in America

Then why hasn't it caused low wages?

Do you really think wages in the US are low? Compared to where?

We are paid more in wages in the US, than anywhere in the world. Anywhere. Nordic countries? Significantly more. Europe? Significantly more. Asia? Dramatically more.

The US has been the most globalized economy, of any country, that has ever existed in human history, and we have been a global economy long before the term "Globalization" even existed.

By your logic, we should have the lower wages than China in the 1970s.

Meanwhile, every country that has openly engaged in protectionism, and isolated itself from the global economy.... which countries are those? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, pre-78 China? Pre-91 India?

Why do you think the richest cities on the planet, are all port cities? Singapore, Hong Kong, Toyko, Abu Dhabi, Daho, Dubai, Barcelona, LA / San Francisco, Chicago, Amsterdam, Toronto, San Diego.

You see a pattern? Obviously some locations are not port cities, like Paris and Madrid. But the vast majority of highly wealthy cities, are all port cities.

Why is that? Because trade and wealth, are directly connected.

Millions of factory workers are having to take low paying service and retail jobs after their factory moved to china

someday our children or grandchildren may be rickshaw drivers pulling fat chinese around from bars to brothels thanks to globalization

 

[Mac-7]

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

How much steel does china import from America?

thats how much we should allow them to export to us

That's retarded.

That's like suggesting, you can't buy a new car, unless someone buys a new car from you.

That's idiotic.

No

retarded is not knowing the value of balanced trade and the danger of chronic trade deficits with our strategic enemy

 

[Mac-7]

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

With the exception of russia none of those countries are strategic enemies of the United States

But china is

this is not strictly economic

Well, there is an argument to be made for that.

I would also suggest that it was specifically because we cut off trade with Japan, that sparked hostilities, and resulted in the US entering into World War 2.

That said, again, China is an exceptionally small trade partner. Contrary to popularly opinion, losing the American market, will cause small waves in the Chinese economy, stoking up hatred for the US, and support for the Chinese government.

But what it will not do, is stop the advancement of the Chinese economy, and growth of the Chinese military capabilities.

So I do understand the context of that argument, but I am skeptical of whatever claimed benefit there will be.

Losing the US market would be a major blow to the chinese economy and the military

America has been a gravy train for china during the past 30 years

but look at it this way

reverse the situation of japan and the US

Imagine japan was 3 times larger than America and had the largest industrial base on the planet

we had a superbly trained military at the beginning of the conflict, but no way to equal the enemy in a war of attrition

not to mention that instead of japan being totally dependent on the US for oil we were totally defendant on them for lifesaving drugs

would we still have won WWII?

I think not

 

[anynameyouwish]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

if you actually say the word "socialism" I'll answer....

none of this pussying around by mislabeling it U.S. Re-Industrialization.

When you say "U.S. Re-Industrialization" do you mean give rich industrialists even MORE money?

so they can piss on us?

I mean...."trickle down"....

 

[Andylusion]

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

How much steel does china import from America?

thats how much we should allow them to export to us

That's retarded.

That's like suggesting, you can't buy a new car, unless someone buys a new car from you.

That's idiotic.

No

retarded is not knowing the value of balanced trade and the danger of chronic trade deficits with our strategic enemy

We get wealthy by trading with them.

There is no danger of chronic trade deficit.

In fact, during every single recession, the trade deficit declines. You can look that up. And this is logic. When there is a recession, and Americans have less money to spend, logically you can't buy as much from others.

Again, a trade deficit is a sign of wealth. The only real way to eliminate the trade deficit, is to be poor.

You want to wipe out our trade deficit with China and everyone else? Destroy the US economy. When everyone is poor, the trade deficit will disappear.

Again, there is no example in the world where protectionism resulted in growth and prosperity.

If eliminating trade deficits was beneficial at all, then Russia should be in an economic boom, because we basically imposed protectionism on Russia with sanctions.

If international trade was bad for the economy, then we should have punished Russia by opening all trade with them.

There is no example anywhere, where that logic worked.

 

[Andylusion]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

if you actually say the word "socialism" I'll answer....

none of this pussying around by mislabeling it U.S. Re-Industrialization.

When you say "U.S. Re-Industrialization" do you mean give rich industrialists even MORE money?

so they can piss on us?

I mean...."trickle down"....

Name one job you've had, that wasn't from a rich person. Name one product you own and need for daily living, that didn't come from a rich person.
When you can provide me one example, where someone impoverished, provided a job to others.... then I'll listen to your complaints about Trickle Down.

 

[Brain357]

We have low unemployment and tons of wealth. There is no reason our wages shouldn’t be higher. The wealth is here to pay them.

I think you mean pinheads in washington who never ran a lemonade stand telling businessmen how much to pay their employees

thats a recipe for diaster

I don’t mean anything. I’m giving you the facts. Unemployment has been super low and we have more than enough wealth. Workers not getting paid is obviously an internal problem. If unemployment was really high you might have a point. Under these circumstances it’s obviously an internal problem.

Globalism causes low wages in America

Then why hasn't it caused low wages?

Do you really think wages in the US are low? Compared to where?

We are paid more in wages in the US, than anywhere in the world. Anywhere. Nordic countries? Significantly more. Europe? Significantly more. Asia? Dramatically more.

The US has been the most globalized economy, of any country, that has ever existed in human history, and we have been a global economy long before the term "Globalization" even existed.

By your logic, we should have the lower wages than China in the 1970s.

Meanwhile, every country that has openly engaged in protectionism, and isolated itself from the global economy.... which countries are those? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, pre-78 China? Pre-91 India?

Why do you think the richest cities on the planet, are all port cities? Singapore, Hong Kong, Toyko, Abu Dhabi, Daho, Dubai, Barcelona, LA / San Francisco, Chicago, Amsterdam, Toronto, San Diego.

You see a pattern? Obviously some locations are not port cities, like Paris and Madrid. But the vast majority of highly wealthy cities, are all port cities.

Why is that? Because trade and wealth, are directly connected.

Millions of factory workers are having to take low paying service and retail jobs after their factory moved to china

someday our children or grandchildren may be rickshaw drivers pulling fat chinese around from bars to brothels thanks to globalization

Is factory work so much harder it deserves higher pay? Perhaps service jobs should pay more...

 

[Brain357]

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

With the exception of russia none of those countries are strategic enemies of the United States

But china is

this is not strictly economic

Well, there is an argument to be made for that.

I would also suggest that it was specifically because we cut off trade with Japan, that sparked hostilities, and resulted in the US entering into World War 2.

That said, again, China is an exceptionally small trade partner. Contrary to popularly opinion, losing the American market, will cause small waves in the Chinese economy, stoking up hatred for the US, and support for the Chinese government.

But what it will not do, is stop the advancement of the Chinese economy, and growth of the Chinese military capabilities.

So I do understand the context of that argument, but I am skeptical of whatever claimed benefit there will be.

Losing the US market would be a major blow to the chinese economy and the military

America has been a gravy train for china during the past 30 years

but look at it this way

reverse the situation of japan and the US

Imagine japan was 3 times larger than America and had the largest industrial base on the planet

we had a superbly trained military at the beginning of the conflict, but no way to equal the enemy in a war of attrition

not to mention that instead of japan being totally dependent on the US for oil we were totally defendant on them for lifesaving drugs

would we still have won WWII?

I think not

China sends us all their resources for dirt cheap and get paper in return. You think that is a bad deal?

 

[Andylusion]

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

With the exception of russia none of those countries are strategic enemies of the United States

But china is

this is not strictly economic

Well, there is an argument to be made for that.

I would also suggest that it was specifically because we cut off trade with Japan, that sparked hostilities, and resulted in the US entering into World War 2.

That said, again, China is an exceptionally small trade partner. Contrary to popularly opinion, losing the American market, will cause small waves in the Chinese economy, stoking up hatred for the US, and support for the Chinese government.

But what it will not do, is stop the advancement of the Chinese economy, and growth of the Chinese military capabilities.

So I do understand the context of that argument, but I am skeptical of whatever claimed benefit there will be.

Losing the US market would be a major blow to the chinese economy and the military

America has been a gravy train for china during the past 30 years

but look at it this way

reverse the situation of japan and the US

Imagine japan was 3 times larger than America and had the largest industrial base on the planet

we had a superbly trained military at the beginning of the conflict, but no way to equal the enemy in a war of attrition

not to mention that instead of japan being totally dependent on the US for oil we were totally defendant on them for lifesaving drugs

would we still have won WWII?

I think not

I respect that this is your opinion, and I am not going to try and convince you otherwise.

I do not believe as you do. Losing the US market will cause some harm, that's true. But even though the US is largest single trade partner with China, we are not but about 15% of all their exports and about 9% of their imports.

Years ago I worked for a company, where one single customer was roughly 30% of their business. That customer pulled the plug. Now did this hurt? You bet. We laid off 10% of the staff, and cut hours for the rest.

But in the end, we started taking on some smaller customers, and expanded existing contracts, and in a years time, we were just about where we were before we lost that big customer.

China is a massive international trade economy now. Yes, the loss of the US, will hurt. I'm not denying that.

But the pain will be temporary, and they will find other business to engage in, in the other 7.5 Billion people on the planet, that are not in the US. They will be able to replace the US.

As for the Chinese military, no. Just I don't buy that at all. The military will be able to advance, with or without the US. And I would even wager at the same rate of advancement.
Technologically speaking, as long as there is growth in the tech used in the domestic markets, then that will filter into the military.
And as long as China has trade with any 1st world country, or any country more advanced than itself, then technology in China will continue to advance at a fairly decent pace. The only way you could slow the advancement of the Chinese military, is if you cut China off from the entire rest of the world, including Russia. Well that's impossible.

So I don't see any military value in cutting ties with China economically. I think that's more mythology, than real. Now I freely admit I could be wrong, and you have an opinion that is just as plausible... but I don't see evidence supporting this idea.

 

[Andylusion]

We have low unemployment and tons of wealth. There is no reason our wages shouldn’t be higher. The wealth is here to pay them.

I think you mean pinheads in washington who never ran a lemonade stand telling businessmen how much to pay their employees

thats a recipe for diaster

I don’t mean anything. I’m giving you the facts. Unemployment has been super low and we have more than enough wealth. Workers not getting paid is obviously an internal problem. If unemployment was really high you might have a point. Under these circumstances it’s obviously an internal problem.

Globalism causes low wages in America

Then why hasn't it caused low wages?

Do you really think wages in the US are low? Compared to where?

We are paid more in wages in the US, than anywhere in the world. Anywhere. Nordic countries? Significantly more. Europe? Significantly more. Asia? Dramatically more.

The US has been the most globalized economy, of any country, that has ever existed in human history, and we have been a global economy long before the term "Globalization" even existed.

By your logic, we should have the lower wages than China in the 1970s.

Meanwhile, every country that has openly engaged in protectionism, and isolated itself from the global economy.... which countries are those? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, pre-78 China? Pre-91 India?

Why do you think the richest cities on the planet, are all port cities? Singapore, Hong Kong, Toyko, Abu Dhabi, Daho, Dubai, Barcelona, LA / San Francisco, Chicago, Amsterdam, Toronto, San Diego.

You see a pattern? Obviously some locations are not port cities, like Paris and Madrid. But the vast majority of highly wealthy cities, are all port cities.

Why is that? Because trade and wealth, are directly connected.

Millions of factory workers are having to take low paying service and retail jobs after their factory moved to china

someday our children or grandchildren may be rickshaw drivers pulling fat chinese around from bars to brothels thanks to globalization

Factory work sucks. I've done it.

Factory work pay, is not exactly fantastic either.

The starting pay for a factory worker, is actually lower than what I'm currently making. And I barely do anything at this job. Truthfully.

Further, your claim about pulling fat Chinese around, is a bit ridiculous. Factory workers in China, are making diddly.

Now unfortunately I don't have super recent numbers, but the last I looked, the average... average... Chinese factory worker pay, was $3.60/hour.

You are envying these jobs... why? Why do you want low pay factory work jobs to return to the US?

And the idea that you are going to start pulling fat Chinese $3.60/hr workers around..... why? Why would you think that? Because they have all the jobs that pay little?

That makes no sense.

So not logical.

 

[Mac-7]

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

So you made a logical contradiction.

You said that new steel plants are opening. This is entirely true.

But then you said, without tariffs China can still undercut our price.

Ok... well, we have not had tariffs on imported Chinese steel in the past 50 years, when all these new domestic steel mills were all opening.

So why hasn't China under cut our price?

The problem with this entire argument, is that it appears to be largely built on myths.

First, off most of the Steel used in the US, is produced domestically. Always has been.

View attachment 313450

Imported steel, has never been more than 30% of the total consumed steel in the US market.

With or without tariffs, steel producers have always been competitive with imports.

Secondly, China isn't even a major supplier of US steel, contrary to Union story telling. And by the way, China never was.

View attachment 313452

Brazil, South Korea, even Japan and Russia, have been larger suppliers of steel than China.

Screaming about China, over steel, is one of the least empirically supported arguments, I have seen on this issue.

The entire thing is rather baffling.

How much steel does china import from America?

thats how much we should allow them to export to us

That's retarded.

That's like suggesting, you can't buy a new car, unless someone buys a new car from you.

That's idiotic.

No

retarded is not knowing the value of balanced trade and the danger of chronic trade deficits with our strategic enemy

We get wealthy by trading with them.

There is no danger of chronic trade deficit.

In fact, during every single recession, the trade deficit declines. You can look that up. And this is logic. When there is a recession, and Americans have less money to spend, logically you can't buy as much from others.

Again, a trade deficit is a sign of wealth. The only real way to eliminate the trade deficit, is to be poor.

You want to wipe out our trade deficit with China and everyone else? Destroy the US economy. When everyone is poor, the trade deficit will disappear.

Again, there is no example in the world where protectionism resulted in growth and prosperity.

If eliminating trade deficits was beneficial at all, then Russia should be in an economic boom, because we basically imposed protectionism on Russia with sanctions.

If international trade was bad for the economy, then we should have punished Russia by opening all trade with them.

There is no example anywhere, where that logic worked.

We already have a chronic trade deficit of $400-$500 billion a year with china

and someday it could be a trillion

 

[Mac-7]

I think you mean pinheads in washington who never ran a lemonade stand telling businessmen how much to pay their employees

thats a recipe for diaster

I don’t mean anything. I’m giving you the facts. Unemployment has been super low and we have more than enough wealth. Workers not getting paid is obviously an internal problem. If unemployment was really high you might have a point. Under these circumstances it’s obviously an internal problem.

Globalism causes low wages in America

Then why hasn't it caused low wages?

Do you really think wages in the US are low? Compared to where?

We are paid more in wages in the US, than anywhere in the world. Anywhere. Nordic countries? Significantly more. Europe? Significantly more. Asia? Dramatically more.

The US has been the most globalized economy, of any country, that has ever existed in human history, and we have been a global economy long before the term "Globalization" even existed.

By your logic, we should have the lower wages than China in the 1970s.

Meanwhile, every country that has openly engaged in protectionism, and isolated itself from the global economy.... which countries are those? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, pre-78 China? Pre-91 India?

Why do you think the richest cities on the planet, are all port cities? Singapore, Hong Kong, Toyko, Abu Dhabi, Daho, Dubai, Barcelona, LA / San Francisco, Chicago, Amsterdam, Toronto, San Diego.

You see a pattern? Obviously some locations are not port cities, like Paris and Madrid. But the vast majority of highly wealthy cities, are all port cities.

Why is that? Because trade and wealth, are directly connected.

Millions of factory workers are having to take low paying service and retail jobs after their factory moved to china

someday our children or grandchildren may be rickshaw drivers pulling fat chinese around from bars to brothels thanks to globalization

Is factory work so much harder it deserves higher pay? Perhaps service jobs should pay more...

Service jobs pay less because less skill is required to do them