Wikileak'd video shows eager-to-kill troops firing on Reuters reporters and children

[CurveLight]

Good. That's exactly what I'd want Apache pilots to be. We don't train them to sing Kum ba yah.

Here's what I am sick of: arm chair quarterbacks who want to lynch our soldiers for doing their duty to the best of their ability and to the reasonable person standard because they disagree with the larger conflict.

I don't want them to sing kumbyah either. I want them to identify their targets properly. They didn't. They had plenty of time..You liking them being gung ho is part of the problem with regard to the mindset that makes these kinds of things happen

If that is them doing their duty to the best of their ability, then I suggest they need better training..

..and there is no Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. You mistake me for somebody who doesn't realise that innocents get killed in war. That happens. In this case, it was OTT IMO..

And your whole argument is based on "it was a war situation, so that A OK"..cool, why not just drag civvies out of their houses and shoot them. Plus, this was 2007, I thought the 'war' was over.

Being gung ho is a good thing but the absence of discipline is what causes needless deaths on civilians and our own troops. There were a lot of friendly fire kills in desert storm because of a lack of discipline.

 

[CurveLight]

Fail.

Your video clearly shows a guy in the Crouch position obviously pointing at a target. whether it's a RPG or AK-47.

And your video clearly shows more than 2 AK's, and at least 1 RPG.

At what point do yhou see the crouch position? I see a guy with a CAMERA in the crouch position. I see one guy with an AK47 and MAYBE and RPG. Are they illegal in Iraq?

We keep seeing these claims but nobody points to the evidence. Just like Crimson ***** complaining we formed opinions on an edited version yet that skank has never provided anything supporting that claim. I doubt it will happen and am pretty confident there will be no retraction of the claim.

 

[geauxtohell]

Fail.

Your video clearly shows a guy in the Crouch position obviously pointing at a target. whether it's a RPG or AK-47.

And your video clearly shows more than 2 AK's, and at least 1 RPG.

I think the only germane thing is that the pilots believed it was an RPG, it very well could have been a long lens from a camera.

Are you in ROTC right now? Any thoughts to branching? I did ROTC in college and branched infantry. If you ever have any questions, feel free to shoot me a line.

 

[geauxtohell]

I don't want them to sing kumbyah either. I want them to identify their targets properly. They didn't. They had plenty of time..You liking them being gung ho is part of the problem with regard to the mindset that makes these kinds of things happen

If that is them doing their duty to the best of their ability, then I suggest they need better training..

..and there is no Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. You mistake me for somebody who doesn't realise that innocents get killed in war. That happens. In this case, it was OTT IMO..

Okay. You want them to do their job better. Complaint lodged.

And your whole argument is based on "it was a war situation, so that A OK"..cool, why not just drag civvies out of their houses and shoot them. Plus, this was 2007, I thought the 'war' was over.

That is lame. I've consistently drawn parallels between this and My Lai. They are not the same. Intent matters here. The pilots fired with the intent to kill insurgents, not reporters and civilians. That was not the intent at My Lai.

Only knuckleheads thought that the "war" was over when Bush said it was. Don't harp on me about this, I said we'd be there slow bleeding for 10 years when we entered Iraq. I was never under any illusions as to what this would turn out to be.

 

[geauxtohell]

Fail.

Your video clearly shows a guy in the Crouch position obviously pointing at a target. whether it's a RPG or AK-47.

And your video clearly shows more than 2 AK's, and at least 1 RPG.

At what point do yhou see the crouch position? I see a guy with a CAMERA in the crouch position. I see one guy with an AK47 and MAYBE and RPG. Are they illegal in Iraq?

You see Doc, this is the problem. First, and RPG is instant engagement criteria, so yes they are illegal. That becomes even more salient when the Bushmaster element is taking fire 300 meters away from their position. It starts to look like reinforcements.

So you consent that there might have been and RPG by your own eyes (never mind the trained eye of a pilot who identified it as such). What would you have them do? Wait until they were on top of the infantry (and thus couldn't be engaged by the Apaches) and shooting before you made positive I.D.? Even if these guys weren't insurgents, if you establish that precedent, you are going to get soldiers killed who otherwise would have been covered by our CAS.

It's a catch-22. Your solution isn't necessarily better than what the pilots did.

 

[CurveLight]

Fail.

Your video clearly shows a guy in the Crouch position obviously pointing at a target. whether it's a RPG or AK-47.

And your video clearly shows more than 2 AK's, and at least 1 RPG.

At what point do yhou see the crouch position? I see a guy with a CAMERA in the crouch position. I see one guy with an AK47 and MAYBE and RPG. Are they illegal in Iraq?

You see Doc, this is the problem. First, and RPG is instant engagement criteria, so yes they are illegal. That becomes even more salient when the Bushmaster element is taking fire 300 meters away from their position. It starts to look like reinforcements.

So you consent that there might have been and RPG by your own eyes (never mind the trained eye of a pilot who identified it as such). What would you have them do? Wait until they were on top of the infantry (and thus couldn't be engaged by the Apaches) and shooting before you made positive I.D.? Even if these guys weren't insurgents, if you establish that precedent, you are going to get soldiers killed who otherwise would have been covered by our CAS.

It's a catch-22. Your solution isn't necessarily better than what the pilots did.

Bushmaster was not taking fire when this happened and it's clear from the video the guys milling around on the road weren't doing anything but walking, and very casually to boot. You're straight up lying to defend what happened.

 

[germanguy]

I can not judge from this video what happened. It simply looks gruesome.

Still, can we judge from some minutes of video the whole story ? I doubt it.

I only have the firm believe, that this whole Iraq War is one big mess with no real winner in the end.

The toll so far is 50.000 - 100.000 Iraqis dead, 4000plus US soldiers dead, some hundred Brits etc. - for what ?

You send young boys and girls into a war without a clear enemy, no real frontline, heavily armed and well trained. Then they experience frustration, fear and anger, because what they do is counterinsurgency and this never smells like roses.

The outcome can be seen in this video.

Is this war just and is it fought in an honorable way ?

The more I read and see people debating it, I doubt, that anybody knows what this war is about and how it will end.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[SFC Ollie]

I can not judge from this video what happened. It simply looks gruesome.

Still, can we judge from some minutes of video the whole story ? I doubt it.

I only have the firm believe, that this whole Iraq War is one big mess with no real winner in the end.

The toll so far is 50.000 - 100.000 Iraqis dead, 4000plus US soldiers dead, some hundred Brits etc. - for what ?

You send young boys and girls into a war without a clear enemy, no real frontline, heavily armed and well trained. Then they experience frustration, fear and anger, because what they do is counterinsurgency and this never smells like roses.

The outcome can be seen in this video.

Is this war just and is it fought in an honorable way ?

The more I read and see people debating it, I doubt, that anybody knows what this war is about and how it will end.

regards
ze germanguy

Do not forget that this war started out as a conventional war with two opposing uniformed armies. It was Rumsfeld (IMO) who didn't realize what it was turning into. No doubt that the USA made mistakes after the military victory. From what can be seen on the 39 minute uncut tape, it does not show everything needed to judge them as anything other than doing their job, as tough as that already is.

 

[Tom Clancy]

Fail.

Your video clearly shows a guy in the Crouch position obviously pointing at a target. whether it's a RPG or AK-47.

And your video clearly shows more than 2 AK's, and at least 1 RPG.

I think the only germane thing is that the pilots believed it was an RPG, it very well could have been a long lens from a camera.

Are you in ROTC right now? Any thoughts to branching? I did ROTC in college and branched infantry. If you ever have any questions, feel free to shoot me a line.

See now, at first i was like that looks like a Long Tripod for the Camera.. But then you clearly see him pointing it at someone/something.. Then you start to realize... Is it actually a RPG? I mean why else would you Aim that thing at someone/something..

And apart from that, Me and many others have spotted at least more than 2 AK's.


--

And right now, im finishing up shcool, getting a few extra credits, and then I'm taking a Sabbatical while attending a Community College, then next year I'll either be at Eastern Carolina University, or North Carolina State.

Both of them have very good ROTC programs..

After 4 years of ROTC, i'll be signing up for Army, And my 2 MOS Choices right now are Aviation (Flying AH-64's, UH-60, etc.) Or Become a Infantry Officer.. Still deciding though.. You Recommend anything?

 

[SFC Ollie]

Fail.

Your video clearly shows a guy in the Crouch position obviously pointing at a target. whether it's a RPG or AK-47.

And your video clearly shows more than 2 AK's, and at least 1 RPG.

I think the only germane thing is that the pilots believed it was an RPG, it very well could have been a long lens from a camera.

Are you in ROTC right now? Any thoughts to branching? I did ROTC in college and branched infantry. If you ever have any questions, feel free to shoot me a line.

See now, at first i was like that looks like a Long Tripod for the Camera.. But then you clearly see him pointing it at someone/something.. Then you start to realize... Is it actually a RPG? I mean why else would you Aim that thing at someone/something..

And apart from that, Me and many others have spotted at least more than 2 AK's.


--

And right now, im finishing up shcool, getting a few extra credits, and then I'm taking a Sabbatical while attending a Community College, then next year I'll either be at Eastern Carolina University, or North Carolina State.

Both of them have very good ROTC programs..

After 4 years of ROTC, i'll be signing up for Army, And my 2 MOS Choices right now are Aviation (Flying AH-64's, UH-60, etc.) Or Become a Infantry Officer.. Still deciding though.. You Recommend anything?

Also during this time period one of the pilots says we're taking fire. Or it sounded like he said that.

 

[Tom Clancy]

Fail.

Your video clearly shows a guy in the Crouch position obviously pointing at a target. whether it's a RPG or AK-47.

And your video clearly shows more than 2 AK's, and at least 1 RPG.

At what point do yhou see the crouch position? I see a guy with a CAMERA in the crouch position. I see one guy with an AK47 and MAYBE and RPG. Are they illegal in Iraq?

Right before the AH-64 starts firing rounds..

A RPG isn't a Self Defense Weapon, I'm pretty sure when any Soldier or Marine sees a RPG they don't think "Oh hey, just a normal Citizen walking around with a RPG."

When people see a RPG, they are a Potential Threat.

 

[geauxtohell]

Bushmaster was not taking fire when this happened and it's clear from the video the guys milling around on the road weren't doing anything but walking, and very casually to boot. You're straight up lying to defend what happened.

Really? Then who was on the radio saying "we are taking fire"?

You really are a pissy sport when people disagree with you.

BTW, you never answered my question: you where an AH-1 Crew Chief. Were you in the air or on the ground?

If it's the latter, I am a little puzzled how you've "been in these situations".

 

[CrimsonWhite]

The ground unit was in no immediate danger so the pilots could have popped off a couple of warning rounds and watched the reaction. That isn't MMQing, it's common fuxxing sense for any of us who have been in that type of situation.

Again. Tell me you are ******* kidding.

The main gun on an Apache is an AREA-KILL weapon. You don't fire "warning shots" with a belt fed weapon.

Seriously, you keep saying that you've "been there, done that" and then you keep making statements that make no tactical sense whatsoever.

Secondly, why would they want to warn them? They thought they were insurgents. They intended to kill them.

If you are going to second guess them, at least do so in a manner that makes some sort of sense in light of the situation.

I was a crew chief on Cobras you fuxxing reetawrd so don't try to preach to me about armaments on our attack helicopters. Do you even know what the sight system is on the 30mm gun? You act like it's a ******* cluster bomb. Holy fuk you are an arrogant hypocritical ignorant snot rag. And no, that is not sarcastic.

How exactly does a "crew chief" get into a situation like that?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

YouTube - Wikileaks video shows eager-to-kill troops firing on Reuters reporters and children

Interesting video...I clearly saw armed men with AK-47's. Perhaps it would be wise if reporters didn't associate with armed men out in the open during a war when the attacking forces have unrestricted air superiority. Common sense should prevail instead of opting for the attempt to get a sob story from the insurgents on how the big bad USA caused them to become terrorists. I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually filming an Al Qaeda recruitment video and got caught out in the open by our very professional soldiers.

 

[SFC Ollie]

YouTube - Wikileaks video shows eager-to-kill troops firing on Reuters reporters and children

Interesting video...I clearly saw armed men with AK-47's. Perhaps it would be wise if reporters didn't associate with armed men out in the open during a war when the attacking forces have unrestricted air superiority. Common sense should prevail instead of opting for the attempt to get a sob story from the insurgents on how the big bad USA caused them to become terrorists. I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually filming an Al Qaeda recruitment video and got caught out in the open by our very professional soldiers.

Also if you see the 39 minute video the infantry reports a RPG.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Again. Tell me you are ******* kidding.

The main gun on an Apache is an AREA-KILL weapon. You don't fire "warning shots" with a belt fed weapon.

Seriously, you keep saying that you've "been there, done that" and then you keep making statements that make no tactical sense whatsoever.

Secondly, why would they want to warn them? They thought they were insurgents. They intended to kill them.

If you are going to second guess them, at least do so in a manner that makes some sort of sense in light of the situation.

I was a crew chief on Cobras you fuxxing reetawrd so don't try to preach to me about armaments on our attack helicopters. Do you even know what the sight system is on the 30mm gun? You act like it's a ******* cluster bomb. Holy fuk you are an arrogant hypocritical ignorant snot rag. And no, that is not sarcastic.

How exactly does a "crew chief" get into a situation like that?

Curvelight was hanging on the skids of course...

 

[CrimsonWhite]

YouTube - Wikileaks video shows eager-to-kill troops firing on Reuters reporters and children

Interesting video...I clearly saw armed men with AK-47's. Perhaps it would be wise if reporters didn't associate with armed men out in the open during a war when the attacking forces have unrestricted air superiority. Common sense should prevail instead of opting for the attempt to get a sob story from the insurgents on how the big bad USA caused them to become terrorists. I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually filming an Al Qaeda recruitment video and got caught out in the open by our very professional soldiers.

Also if you see the 39 minute video the infantry reports a RPG.

And we all know that RPG's are defensive weapons right? They surely aren't used to do things like shoot down helicopters. People don't realize that this is a ******* war. This is what happens in war. People get killed. These guys followed the ROE to the letter and Curvelight wants be a douchebag and play monday morning quarterback.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

YouTube - Wikileaks video shows eager-to-kill troops firing on Reuters reporters and children

Interesting video...I clearly saw armed men with AK-47's. Perhaps it would be wise if reporters didn't associate with armed men out in the open during a war when the attacking forces have unrestricted air superiority. Common sense should prevail instead of opting for the attempt to get a sob story from the insurgents on how the big bad USA caused them to become terrorists. I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually filming an Al Qaeda recruitment video and got caught out in the open by our very professional soldiers.

Also if you see the 39 minute video the infantry reports a RPG.

I clearly saw an UNLOADED RPG launcher on one of the guys NOT identified as the camera man. Plus when our extremely efficient and professional soldiers investigated the area after the attack they did in fact find that rocket launcher.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Interesting video...I clearly saw armed men with AK-47's. Perhaps it would be wise if reporters didn't associate with armed men out in the open during a war when the attacking forces have unrestricted air superiority. Common sense should prevail instead of opting for the attempt to get a sob story from the insurgents on how the big bad USA caused them to become terrorists. I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually filming an Al Qaeda recruitment video and got caught out in the open by our very professional soldiers.

Also if you see the 39 minute video the infantry reports a RPG.

I clearly saw an UNLOADED RPG launcher on one of the guys NOT identified as the camera man. Plus when our extremely efficient and professional soldiers investigated the area after the attack they did in fact find that rocket launcher.

I saw it too and mentioned it about 15 pages ago. I counted 3 Kalashnikovs and 1 RPG.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Also if you see the 39 minute video the infantry reports a RPG.

I clearly saw an UNLOADED RPG launcher on one of the guys NOT identified as the camera man. Plus when our extremely efficient and professional soldiers investigated the area after the attack they did in fact find that rocket launcher.

I saw it too and mentioned it about 15 pages ago. I counted 3 Kalashnikovs and 1 RPG.

Yes but us seeing it in the video is not as strong as the Infantry reporting it. Knowing Bentlight and eots they will deny that we can spot anything.