Wikileak'd video shows eager-to-kill troops firing on Reuters reporters and children

[geauxtohell]

"I think that the government has successfully proved that any service member has reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal."
-- Lt. Cmdr. Robert Klant, presiding at Pablo Paredes' court-martial
Http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2005/05/13_cohn_navy-judge-protest.htm


That info is only about five years old so maybe in 2015 you'll be more caught up so we can discuss this topic on a more level playing field.

Yeah, Paredes was still convicted and sentenced and is still trying to get his service record restored:

Paredes was brought up on two charges, violation of Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 86, absence without leave and Article 87 Missing movement, and found guilty by court martial on May 10, 2005. The sentencing came the day after his conviction and included two months restriction, three months hard labor without confinement, and reduction in rank from E-4 to E-1. September 19, 2005 Paredes filed a lawsuit against the United States Navy in federal district court. The petition said the Navy improperly rejected his application for discharge as a conscientious objector, and asked the Court to order the Navy to give Paredes an honorable discharge.[3] The request was denied by both the courts and the Navy; Peredes has submitted a rebuttal and is awaiting the final decision of the courts.

Pablo Paredes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The LTCDR also didn't implicitly state that the wars were illegal and you and I both know that no representative of the UCMJ has ever made that statement.

That certainly wasn't the holding at the Watada case either.

 

[geauxtohell]

Fair enough re who the Apache belongs to. Down here there is no air attachment to the army.

Why they took them out still does not excuse what happened. It was premeditated murder as far as I'm concerned. And, no I'm not one of those people who hope for a perfect world where there will be no civilian casualties. That is inevitable in a war. But these circumstances were sickening. If those guys on the ground had been chanting, pumping AK47's into the air, looking up at the Apache etc, that would have been one volatile situation for sure, and it MIGHT have excused their actions. This was just gung-ho soldiers, and you can tell by what they were saying...

You can call it whatever the hell you want. It's not relevant. What is relevant is what the chain of command calls it.

All of you who want to hang these pilots seem to object to two things:
1.) The guys that got engaged just weren't acting "enemy-like" enough.
2.) The pilots didn't automatically go into a philosophical "war is hell" rant after engaging targets.

Neither of them make much sense. This smacks of a zero defect mentality that is completely divorced form reality. "Boys, do your jobs, but if you **** up, we are going to hang you." That kind of mentality gets soldiers killed in the combat zone.

 

[CurveLight]

Just watching the video, my heart jumped into my throat when one of the men crouched into a firing stance.

you must be a drama queen in your spare time. The thing I love about this video is its clarity. When I saw the guy crouching it looked like somebody hiding behind a wall and looking down the street. IOW, he was keeping most of his body behind a solid object..

anybody who watches that video (and therefore the airforce personal unless they were morons) will note the only time they even were aware of the copter was after it started shooting.....

Murder is murder and those guys are murderers....

? The video was shot by the Apache. The Airforce had nothing to do with this.

The point of CAS is to not be on top of whatever element they are going to engage. Hence the whole element of surprise thing.

The fact is that these Apaches were flying support for the infantry unit that was 300 meters away. They were taking them them out for the infantry, not for self preservation.

The ground unit was in no immediate danger so the pilots could have popped off a couple of warning rounds and watched the reaction. That isn't MMQing, it's common fuxxing sense for any of us who have been in that type of situation.

 

[geauxtohell]

The ground unit was in no immediate danger so the pilots could have popped off a couple of warning rounds and watched the reaction. That isn't MMQing, it's common fuxxing sense for any of us who have been in that type of situation.

Again. Tell me you are ******* kidding.

The main gun on an Apache is an AREA-KILL weapon. You don't fire "warning shots" with a belt fed weapon.

Seriously, you keep saying that you've "been there, done that" and then you keep making statements that make no tactical sense whatsoever.

Secondly, why would they want to warn them? They thought they were insurgents. They intended to kill them.

If you are going to second guess them, at least do so in a manner that makes some sort of sense in light of the situation.

 

[CurveLight]

1) They were gung ho

Good. That's exactly what I'd want Apache pilots to be. We don't train them to sing Kum ba yah.

2) They had plenty of time to identify these guys

And they identified them as a threat to the ground unit. That might have been a mistake, but in a combat zone, it doesn't elevate to a criminal offense or even misconduct or dereliction of duty.

3) Then again all sand ******* look the same don't they.

That's pejorative and does nothing to buoy your claim.

4) I'm sick to death of you jingoistic, nationalist 'patriots' who give a free pass to your guys no matter how disgusting their actions due to some misguided belief that if you criticise them you are somehow dissing the US military...

Then you are talking to the wrong guy. I have opposed Iraq since the beginning.

Here's what I am sick of: arm chair quarterbacks who want to lynch our soldiers for doing their duty to the best of their ability and to the reasonable person standard because they disagree with the larger conflict.

I defended the Soldiers involved with the Haditha incident due to the circumstances and I've often defended our Soldiers even though I've been opposed to iraq since 9E.

 

[CurveLight]

It has a lot to do with the op. ROE are an essential element in debating the validity of the shooting.

My main beef with it is the pilots actively tried to justify what they knew was being recorded. The first time a pilot mentioned an rpg he was fishing for confirmation to justify firing. These assholes were jubilant before they killed the civilians.

Then you've got larger issues. The military found, long ago via a 15-6, that these pilots acted in accordance with the ROE.

If you want to believe these pilots scripted their lines to justify killing innocents, I won't even try to dissuade you as you have stepped into the conspiracy zone.

I'll go with Occam's razor.

Yep. The military was so confident of its investigation it had no problem give the tape to Reuters upon request. Wait.....damn! Thass not what happened.


I didn't say the pilots scripted their lines you fuxxing genius.

 

[CurveLight]

"I think that the government has successfully proved that any service member has reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal."
-- Lt. Cmdr. Robert Klant, presiding at Pablo Paredes' court-martial
Http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2005/05/13_cohn_navy-judge-protest.htm


That info is only about five years old so maybe in 2015 you'll be more caught up so we can discuss this topic on a more level playing field.

Yeah, Paredes was still convicted and sentenced and is still trying to get his service record restored:

Paredes was brought up on two charges, violation of Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 86, absence without leave and Article 87 Missing movement, and found guilty by court martial on May 10, 2005. The sentencing came the day after his conviction and included two months restriction, three months hard labor without confinement, and reduction in rank from E-4 to E-1. September 19, 2005 Paredes filed a lawsuit against the United States Navy in federal district court. The petition said the Navy improperly rejected his application for discharge as a conscientious objector, and asked the Court to order the Navy to give Paredes an honorable discharge.[3] The request was denied by both the courts and the Navy; Peredes has submitted a rebuttal and is awaiting the final decision of the courts.

Pablo Paredes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The LTCDR also didn't implicitly state that the wars were illegal and you and I both know that no representative of the UCMJ has ever made that statement.

That certainly wasn't the holding at the Watada case either.

You just proved your intellectual dishonesty. Nothing else to say to you on this matter.

 

[CurveLight]

The ground unit was in no immediate danger so the pilots could have popped off a couple of warning rounds and watched the reaction. That isn't MMQing, it's common fuxxing sense for any of us who have been in that type of situation.

Again. Tell me you are ******* kidding.

The main gun on an Apache is an AREA-KILL weapon. You don't fire "warning shots" with a belt fed weapon.

Seriously, you keep saying that you've "been there, done that" and then you keep making statements that make no tactical sense whatsoever.

Secondly, why would they want to warn them? They thought they were insurgents. They intended to kill them.

If you are going to second guess them, at least do so in a manner that makes some sort of sense in light of the situation.

I was a crew chief on Cobras you fuxxing reetawrd so don't try to preach to me about armaments on our attack helicopters. Do you even know what the sight system is on the 30mm gun? You act like it's a ******* cluster bomb. Holy fuk you are an arrogant hypocritical ignorant snot rag. And no, that is not sarcastic.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Hi Mayya:

That's very sad. Mistakes happen, but I think those boys were way too bloodlusty.

I just uploaded the uncut version of the Wikileaks video (see www.collateralmurder.com) to my Youtube Channel:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9A_-JU08Q0"]U.S. Military Murdering Innocent Reuters Journalists[/ame]

The U.S. Military is supposed to be fighting 'uniformed combatants' in a 'declared war' on the battlefield and NOT murdering innocent Reuters Journalists (story) on city streets sent there to cover the illegal invasion of another sovereign nation. There is no sign of any guns, but these reporters are carrying cameras. No American Soldier is under fire and nobody is shown in these pictures except innocent civilians. Every U.S. Citizen should be outraged that our U.S. Military, for our common DEFENSE, is being used against innocent civilians in other countries.

If Americans are willing to murder civilians in plain sight overseas, then U.S. Citizens can be murdered just as easily right here at home. America has transformed into a terrorist state and there is no rest and no peace for anyone in the Middle East. This murder of innocent reporters is no mistake at all, but each person was murdered very much on purpose. This is what happens when the military is allowed to 'police' civilians in any country (home or abroad) ...

GL,

Terral

Terral, I suggest you look for the 39 minute uncut version of this film. It shows so much more. But still not enough to condemn anyone. And as you have been informed a million times, its not an illegal war and insurgents do not wear uniforms. Watch out for the black Helicopters.

 

[CurveLight]

Hi Mayya:

That's very sad. Mistakes happen, but I think those boys were way too bloodlusty.

I just uploaded the uncut version of the Wikileaks video (see www.collateralmurder.com) to my Youtube Channel:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9A_-JU08Q0"]U.S. Military Murdering Innocent Reuters Journalists[/ame]

The U.S. Military is supposed to be fighting 'uniformed combatants' in a 'declared war' on the battlefield and NOT murdering innocent Reuters Journalists (story) on city streets sent there to cover the illegal invasion of another sovereign nation. There is no sign of any guns, but these reporters are carrying cameras. No American Soldier is under fire and nobody is shown in these pictures except innocent civilians. Every U.S. Citizen should be outraged that our U.S. Military, for our common DEFENSE, is being used against innocent civilians in other countries.

If Americans are willing to murder civilians in plain sight overseas, then U.S. Citizens can be murdered just as easily right here at home. America has transformed into a terrorist state and there is no rest and no peace for anyone in the Middle East. This murder of innocent reporters is no mistake at all, but each person was murdered very much on purpose. This is what happens when the military is allowed to 'police' civilians in any country (home or abroad) ...

GL,

Terral

Terral, I suggest you look for the 39 minute uncut version of this film. It shows so much more. But still not enough to condemn anyone. And as you have been informed a million times, its not an illegal war and insurgents do not wear uniforms. Watch out for the black Helicopters.

I read the entire transcript and it does not exonerate the "oh please let us engage" shitbag pilots.

 

[SFC Ollie]

? The video was shot by the Apache. The Airforce had nothing to do with this.

The point of CAS is to not be on top of whatever element they are going to engage. Hence the whole element of surprise thing.

The fact is that these Apaches were flying support for the infantry unit that was 300 meters away. They were taking them them out for the infantry, not for self preservation.

Fair enough re who the Apache belongs to. Down here there is no air attachment to the army.

Why they took them out still does not excuse what happened. It was premeditated murder as far as I'm concerned. And, no I'm not one of those people who hope for a perfect world where there will be no civilian casualties. That is inevitable in a war. But these circumstances were sickening. If those guys on the ground had been chanting, pumping AK47's into the air, looking up at the Apache etc, that would have been one volatile situation for sure, and it MIGHT have excused their actions. This was just gung-ho soldiers, and you can tell by what they were saying...

Thank God that your concerns don't matter, Most people couldn't serve under your concerns. and those that did would end up dead.

 

[geauxtohell]

Yep. The military was so confident of its investigation it had no problem give the tape to Reuters upon request. Wait.....damn! Thass not what happened.

Of course the military didn't want to release this. It's awful. That doesn't mean the pilots were criminal or even derelict.

If nothing else, I could see them not wanting to release it for the sake of the pilots. My first though when I clicked on the link was "Man, I hope I don't recognize any of the voices on this video." I have a lot of friends who are Apache pilots, and I don't want them to be crucified by the public for doing their jobs.

I didn't say the pilots scripted their lines you fuxxing genius.

First, are you capable of discussing anything without resorting to idiotic insults?

Secondly:

My main beef with it is the pilots actively tried to justify what they knew was being recorded.

Implies to me that you thought the pilots were reciting a script. If that's not what you meant then, apologies.

What did you mean?

 

[geauxtohell]

I was a crew chief on Cobras you fuxxing reetawrd

I don't know how it works in the USMC. Does that mean you actually flew and gunned or were in charge of the ground crew responsible for keeping the helicopter flying?

so don't try to preach to me about armaments on our attack helicopters.

Then don't say dumb-assed things that imply you have zero knowledge about the situation.

Do you even know what the sight system is on the 30mm gun? You act like it's a ******* cluster bomb.

No clue. It wasn't in my MTOE. I do know I would probably have been laughed out of the TOC if I proposed firing "warning" shots with an area-kill weapon.

Furthermore, it misses the point. The pilots wanted to kill these guys. They thought they were insurgents.

Holy fuk you are an arrogant hypocritical ignorant snot rag. And no, that is not sarcastic.

Arrogant why? Because I disagree with you? I guess I'll be "arrogant" then.

Ignorant? Wrong again. I've been on the ground as an infantryman. I owe my life to CAS. If there is anyone on this thread who is not ignorant of the realities of this matter, it's me.

Hypocritical? Again no. Hypocritical would be acting like when I was on the ground my shit didn't stink and every decision I made was perfect.

Speaking of hypocritical, how many innocent Iraqis or Afghanis or whatever got smoked because of your handy-work?

I guess you are lucky that Cobras don't have cameras on them, huh?

 

[geauxtohell]

"I think that the government has successfully proved that any service member has reasonable cause to believe that the wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal."
-- Lt. Cmdr. Robert Klant, presiding at Pablo Paredes' court-martial
Http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2005/05/13_cohn_navy-judge-protest.htm


That info is only about five years old so maybe in 2015 you'll be more caught up so we can discuss this topic on a more level playing field.

Yeah, Paredes was still convicted and sentenced and is still trying to get his service record restored:

Paredes was brought up on two charges, violation of Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 86, absence without leave and Article 87 Missing movement, and found guilty by court martial on May 10, 2005. The sentencing came the day after his conviction and included two months restriction, three months hard labor without confinement, and reduction in rank from E-4 to E-1. September 19, 2005 Paredes filed a lawsuit against the United States Navy in federal district court. The petition said the Navy improperly rejected his application for discharge as a conscientious objector, and asked the Court to order the Navy to give Paredes an honorable discharge.[3] The request was denied by both the courts and the Navy; Peredes has submitted a rebuttal and is awaiting the final decision of the courts.

Pablo Paredes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The LTCDR also didn't implicitly state that the wars were illegal and you and I both know that no representative of the UCMJ has ever made that statement.

That certainly wasn't the holding at the Watada case either.

You just proved your intellectual dishonesty. Nothing else to say to you on this matter.

I would say the same about you.

 

[Dr Grump]

Good. That's exactly what I'd want Apache pilots to be. We don't train them to sing Kum ba yah.

Here's what I am sick of: arm chair quarterbacks who want to lynch our soldiers for doing their duty to the best of their ability and to the reasonable person standard because they disagree with the larger conflict.

I don't want them to sing kumbyah either. I want them to identify their targets properly. They didn't. They had plenty of time..You liking them being gung ho is part of the problem with regard to the mindset that makes these kinds of things happen

If that is them doing their duty to the best of their ability, then I suggest they need better training..

..and there is no Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. You mistake me for somebody who doesn't realise that innocents get killed in war. That happens. In this case, it was OTT IMO..

And your whole argument is based on "it was a war situation, so that A OK"..cool, why not just drag civvies out of their houses and shoot them. Plus, this was 2007, I thought the 'war' was over.

 

[Dr Grump]

? The video was shot by the Apache. The Airforce had nothing to do with this.

The point of CAS is to not be on top of whatever element they are going to engage. Hence the whole element of surprise thing.

The fact is that these Apaches were flying support for the infantry unit that was 300 meters away. They were taking them them out for the infantry, not for self preservation.

Fair enough re who the Apache belongs to. Down here there is no air attachment to the army.

Why they took them out still does not excuse what happened. It was premeditated murder as far as I'm concerned. And, no I'm not one of those people who hope for a perfect world where there will be no civilian casualties. That is inevitable in a war. But these circumstances were sickening. If those guys on the ground had been chanting, pumping AK47's into the air, looking up at the Apache etc, that would have been one volatile situation for sure, and it MIGHT have excused their actions. This was just gung-ho soldiers, and you can tell by what they were saying...

Thank God that your concerns don't matter, Most people couldn't serve under your concerns. and those that did would end up dead.

And if you were in the SS during WWII you'd be making excuses for Heydrich. "We can do now wrong"....There is a reason you were never an officer....

 

[SFC Ollie]

Fair enough re who the Apache belongs to. Down here there is no air attachment to the army.

Why they took them out still does not excuse what happened. It was premeditated murder as far as I'm concerned. And, no I'm not one of those people who hope for a perfect world where there will be no civilian casualties. That is inevitable in a war. But these circumstances were sickening. If those guys on the ground had been chanting, pumping AK47's into the air, looking up at the Apache etc, that would have been one volatile situation for sure, and it MIGHT have excused their actions. This was just gung-ho soldiers, and you can tell by what they were saying...

Thank God that your concerns don't matter, Most people couldn't serve under your concerns. and those that did would end up dead.

And if you were in the SS during WWII you'd be making excuses for Heydrich. "We can do now wrong"....There is a reason you were never an officer....

Yes there is, I turned down OCS back in 71.

 

[eagleseven]

If these guys failed to request clearance to engage, then they should be disciplined.

Only, in the video presented, they clearly followed ROE. The ROE are not perfect, but I'm not about to condemn our soldiers for following the rules.

 

[Tom Clancy]

Hi Mayya:

That's very sad. Mistakes happen, but I think those boys were way too bloodlusty.

I just uploaded the uncut version of the Wikileaks video (see www.collateralmurder.com) to my Youtube Channel:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9A_-JU08Q0"]U.S. Military Murdering Innocent Reuters Journalists[/ame]

The U.S. Military is supposed to be fighting 'uniformed combatants' in a 'declared war' on the battlefield and NOT murdering innocent Reuters Journalists (story) on city streets sent there to cover the illegal invasion of another sovereign nation. There is no sign of any guns, but these reporters are carrying cameras. No American Soldier is under fire and nobody is shown in these pictures except innocent civilians. Every U.S. Citizen should be outraged that our U.S. Military, for our common DEFENSE, is being used against innocent civilians in other countries.

If Americans are willing to murder civilians in plain sight overseas, then U.S. Citizens can be murdered just as easily right here at home. America has transformed into a terrorist state and there is no rest and no peace for anyone in the Middle East. This murder of innocent reporters is no mistake at all, but each person was murdered very much on purpose. This is what happens when the military is allowed to 'police' civilians in any country (home or abroad) ...

GL,

Terral

Fail.

Your video clearly shows a guy in the Crouch position obviously pointing at a target. whether it's a RPG or AK-47.

And your video clearly shows more than 2 AK's, and at least 1 RPG.

 

[Dr Grump]

Fail.

Your video clearly shows a guy in the Crouch position obviously pointing at a target. whether it's a RPG or AK-47.

And your video clearly shows more than 2 AK's, and at least 1 RPG.

At what point do yhou see the crouch position? I see a guy with a CAMERA in the crouch position. I see one guy with an AK47 and MAYBE and RPG. Are they illegal in Iraq?