Why would Putin not want a cease fire while a long term peace agreement is finalized.

[ElmerMudd]

Yep.

I think it is because the russians failed at communism. As everyone who tries it does.


THe lefties will never forgive the russians for that. I think they hate the russians more for that, then they hate Americans for slavery.

Says the idiot who spreads the Russian propaganda of a quasi communist autocracy.

You don't know what you don't know and you don't know a lot.

 

[Correll]

If you want to say the USA should provide no aid or assistance then say it.

And the leftards tries to dodge the point, by tossing out a strawman.

Ukraine cannot push the russians out of their territory, not in a reasonable time frame or for a reasonable cost, in lives.

You know that, which is why you talk so much shit, to avoid discussing that.

What Ukraine should do is their business, not yours.

Bullsht. Blank checks of that kind literally went out of fashion, in THE GREAT WAR.


Your excuses for not discussing the fact that you know your policy is not workable,


is just you being a pro-war conman.

 

[Correll]

Says the idiot who spreads the Russian propaganda of a quasi communist autocracy.

You don't know what you don't know and you don't know a lot.

It is a fact that during hte Cold War, when the russians were still commie, that you leftards, where much more sympathetic to them,

than you are now.


And I mean A LOT MORE.

The way you leftards will say retarded shit in support of your leftard agenda today, you would say shit like that, in support of the soviet union.


Like denying that the Sandinists were marxists. lol. That was pure gold.


******* retards, everyone one of you.

 

[ElmerMudd]

And the leftards tries to dodge the point, by tossing out a strawman.

Ukraine cannot push the russians out of their territory, not in a reasonable time frame or for a reasonable cost, in lives.

You know that, which is why you talk so much shit, to avoid discussing that.




Bullsht. Blank checks of that kind literally went out of fashion, in THE GREAT WAR.


Your excuses for not discussing the fact that you know your policy is not workable,


is just you being a pro-war conman.

Mark Twain said, “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience".

 

[ElmerMudd]

It is a fact that during hte Cold War, when the russians were still commie, that you leftards, where much more sympathetic to them,

than you are now.


And I mean A LOT MORE.

The way you leftards will say retarded shit in support of your leftard agenda today, you would say shit like that, in support of the soviet union.


Like denying that the Sandinists were marxists. lol. That was pure gold.


******* retards, everyone one of you.

Mark Twain said, “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience".

 

[Correll]

Mark Twain said, “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience".

Yeah, he was a grumpy old man, and I respect that, but really, I disagree.

You stupid people, are too many and too important to leave alone to cause damage without pushback.


Oh, and btw, we all saw that you are unable to refute my point, ie that Ukraine is not able to push the russias off their land, in any reasonable time frame or reasonable price in lives.

That's the truth, and thus, cutting a deal, even a crappy deal that you don't like, is called for.


Dumbass asshole.

 

[Mac1958]

Putin has no interest in peace.

And as long as Trump bends over for him (I guess he gave his hero another two weeks today), Putin can drag this out for a long time.

Trumputin continues to prolong the killing. And blame Z for it.

 

[Correll]

Putin has no interest in peace.

And as long as Trump bends over for him (I guess he gave his hero another two weeks today), Putin can drag this out for a long time.

Trumputin continues to prolong the killing. And blame Z for it.

Trump can't force Putin to do shit. As long as Putin refuses to be reasonable, the guns flow, and russians continue to die.

That is what the left wants. That is what hte left is getting.

Why so angry? YOu are winning on this issue. You are getting the war that you want, instead of the peace that MAGA wants.

 

[Flopper]

You choose option two, RED BAITING.


If you believed, truly believed that the human cost of the war, even if it takes a long time, would be WORTH the benefit to the world, of a final Ukrainian Victory,

you would be willing to at least TRY to make an argument, that continuing the war makes sense and is worth it.


But, you and by you, I mean ALL OF YOU PRO-WAR people,


ALWAYS run away from any serious discussion of the question, IS THE WAR WORTH THE COST.



This indicates that you, YOU believe that the answer is NO.


Becasue if you believed it was, you would try to make that case.


So, you know that the war is not worth the cost, and yet you want to wage teh war ANYWAYS.


That is evil and vile beyond words.


And it raises the question, what is your real motive, as it clearly is not the good of the ukrainian people?

Putin position is that the war is needed to reclaim land that had always been part of Russia. Ukraine became a nation with the fall of the Soviet Union. Except for brief periods, the Ukraine has been part of Russia for over 300 years. They speak Russian and much of their culture is Russian.

The threat that Ukraine would join NATO touched off the current war. If the war ends in negotiations, it seems likely that what remains Ukraine will apply and be accepted in NATO. Putin needs a total victory. That is only way he will stop the NATO expansion which he considers a danger to Russia.

Unlike Trump, Putin has plenty of time to get what he wants. The US trade war with China has pushed China even closer to Russia. And sanctions will push the two countries even closer together. China has an active army of 2 million with no war to fight and Putin has such a war.

 

[ElmerMudd]

Putin position is that the war is needed to reclaim land that had always been part of Russia. Ukraine became a nation with the fall of the Soviet Union. Except for brief periods, the Ukraine has been part of Russia for over 300 years. They speak Russian and much of their culture is Russian.

The threat that Ukraine would join NATO touched off the current war. If the war ends in negotiations, it seems likely that what remains Ukraine will apply and be accepted in NATO. Putin needs a total victory. That is only way he will stop the NATO expansion which he considers a danger to Russia.

Unlike Trump, Putin has plenty of time to get what he wants. The US trade war with China has pushed China even closer to Russia. And sanctions will push the two countries even closer together. China has an active army of 2 million with no war to fight and Putin has such a war.

BULLSHIT.
Ukraine has a distinct language, Ukrainian, and a unique culture rooted in its historical development and traditions, though it is a multi-ethnic nation with other languages and cultural influences present. The Ukrainian language is the official language of the country and has its own distinct grammatical features, while Ukrainian culture is characterized by traditions like embroidered clothing (vyshyvankas), hospitality, and a strong sense of national identity.

 

[Correll]

Putin position is that the war is needed to reclaim land that had always been part of Russia. Ukraine became a nation with the fall of the Soviet Union. Except for brief periods, the Ukraine has been part of Russia for over 300 years. They speak Russian and much of their culture is Russian.

The threat that Ukraine would join NATO touched off the current war. If the war ends in negotiations, it seems likely that what remains Ukraine will apply and be accepted in NATO. Putin needs a total victory. That is only way he will stop the NATO expansion which he considers a danger to Russia.

Unlike Trump, Putin has plenty of time to get what he wants. The US trade war with China has pushed China even closer to Russia. And sanctions will push the two countries even closer together. China has an active army of 2 million with no war to fight and Putin has such a war.

That's nice. And in no way addresses the post you were supposedly "replying" to.


PUtin really wants it, but his military failed to get it. And his nation is being bled white.

THat doesn't change the fact that Ukraine is not going to be able to push Russia OUT of ukrainian territory.

Not in a reasonable time frame, or at a reasonable cost.


AND there is always the chance the UKRAINE moral collapses. What would you want us to do, if the Ukraine's front collapses, and the russians start making good time?

 

[Flopper]

BULLSHIT.
Ukraine has a distinct language, Ukrainian, and a unique culture rooted in its historical development and traditions, though it is a multi-ethnic nation with other languages and cultural influences present. The Ukrainian language is the official language of the country and has its own distinct grammatical features, while Ukrainian culture is characterized by traditions like embroidered clothing (vyshyvankas), hospitality, and a strong sense of national identity.

At the time of the 2014 revolution which became the current war, Russia was the primary trading partner of the Ukraine. Depending of what survey you believe, 20% to 40% of the Ukraine population identified themselves as Russian. This is not surprising since the Ukraine has been controlled by Russia for over 300 years except for a brief period following WWI. The size of Ukraine increased significantly as a USSR republic. Russia transferred the Crimea to the Ukraine and also parts of territories from former Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Romania.

The Ukraine Republic was founding member of the USSR and remained more closely tied to Russia than any other republic. So Russia's attempt to reclaim the Ukraine should come as no surprise.

 

[ElmerMudd]

At the time of the 2014 revolution which became the current war, Russia was the primary trading partner of the Ukraine. Depending of what survey you believe, 20% to 40% of the Ukraine population identified themselves as Russian. This is not surprising since the Ukraine has been controlled by Russia for over 300 years except for a brief period following WWI. The size of Ukraine increased significantly as a USSR republic. Russia transferred the Crimea to the Ukraine and also parts of territories from former Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Romania.

The Ukraine Republic was founding member of the USSR and remained more closely tied to Russia than any other republic. So Russia's attempt to reclaim the Ukraine should come as no surprise.

The Ukraine became independent because that is what their citizens wanted. There were some that preferred being Russian but the majority wanted independence.

 

[Flopper]

That's nice. And in no way addresses the post you were supposedly "replying" to.


PUtin really wants it, but his military failed to get it. And his nation is being bled white.

THat doesn't change the fact that Ukraine is not going to be able to push Russia OUT of ukrainian territory.

Not in a reasonable time frame, or at a reasonable cost.


AND there is always the chance the UKRAINE moral collapses. What would you want us to do, if the Ukraine's front collapses, and the russians start making good time?

If the Ukraine loses the will to continue the fight, then it will be returned to Russia where it has been for centuries. The US and NATO may consider directly intervening but I think that is very unlikely. This would mean the West would be in direct confrontation with Russia which would likely bring in China and North Korea due to mutual defense treaties.

I'm sure Hawks would resurrect the old Domino Theory, a Cold War-era foreign policy concept that held that if one country fell to communism, other surrounding countries would subsequently fall like dominoes, creating a regional cascade of communist takeovers. It did not happen then and would not happen now.

 

[Flopper]

The Ukraine became independent because that is what their citizens wanted. There were some that preferred being Russian but the majority wanted independence.

Ukraine became independent from Russia because of the collapse of the USSR. What other option other than independence was there? Russia became an independent state and went into economic chaos and control by the oligarchs.

 

[ElmerMudd]

Ukraine became independent from Russia because of the collapse of the USSR. What other option other than independence was there? Russia became an independent state and went into economic chaos and control by the oligarchs.

If Ukraine had not voted for independence in December 1991, it could have remained part of Russia

 

[Flopper]

If Ukraine had not voted for independence in December 1991, it could have remained part of Russia

Not at that time, probably later. The governing entity in the Ukraine would be on their own for sometime. Russia was having trouble governing themselves. So Ukraine held elections drew up a constitution and continued without Russia. However in 2004, a Russian statesmen was elected president which lead a to revolution. Insurrections were popping till 2014. Then a second revolution started which lead to the current war.

 

[Correll]

If the Ukraine loses the will to continue the fight, then it will be returned to Russia where it has been for centuries. The US and NATO may consider directly intervening but I think that is very unlikely. This would mean the West would be in direct confrontation with Russia which would likely bring in China and North Korea due to mutual defense treaties.

I'm sure Hawks would resurrect the old Domino Theory, a Cold War-era foreign policy concept that held that if one country fell to communism, other surrounding countries would subsequently fall like dominoes, creating a regional cascade of communist takeovers. It did not happen then and would not happen now.

The pro-war side in this debate is already pushing the idea that if UKRAIN falls that Putin willl just keep going.


It is not really a replay of hte Domnio Theory, just the ... historically ignorant idea that every would be conquer, is actual a Hitler clone.

Also, ignoring all military and economic factors.

 

[JWBooth]

The pro-war side in this debate is already pushing the idea that if UKRAIN falls that Putin willl just keep going.


It is not really a replay of hte Domnio Theory, just the ... historically ignorant idea that every would be conquer, is actual a Hitler clone.

Also, ignoring all military and economic factors.

That lie didn't start recently though they have breathed new life into it.

 

[Flopper]

That lie didn't start recently though they have breathed new life into it.

The old Domino Theory, if Vietnam falls to communism so will all of Southeast Asia proved to be invalid. The disastrous Vietnam war drug on for nearly 15 bloody years because the Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon administration bought into it. The only two countries to go communist after the fall of Vietnam was Vietnam and Laos which was moving toward communism long before the war ended.

Russia is now a multiparty state and the communist party does not control the goverment. The dangerous Russia possess is not ideological. It is the ago old simple desire for domination and control.

Just because a political theory seems perfectly reasonable does not validate it.