Why not electric tractors?

[Old Rocks]

Hahaha. Old crock just admitted all electric cars today are junk!

Present EV's are range limited for doing the things that I do. However, that will change within a couple more years. No, the present EV's are not junk, just as the present ICE vehicles are not junk. But one does get what one pays for, and there are many good used vehicles that have the majority of their usable life left for a fraction of the cost of a new vehicle.

 

[Old Rocks]

I started working for SpaceX in October. I
Teslas everywhere.

Electric cars are a poorly executed decent idea.

Battery companies love electric cars that run on batteries. I have no idea how many batteries I have thrown out. 100's? 1000s.

Yep, soon electric cars will be successfully engineered to last 3 years without needing fuel or charging. Just use three years and then throw it away to sabmve the planet.

Everything green increases the use of heavy industry and fossil fuels

Miss Elektra, you don't throw out an EV battery that has reached less than 80% of it's original charging capacity. You either recycle it, or you use it for a stationary storage battery. For a battery with an original capacity of 100 Kw/hr, that is 70 or 80 Kw/hr, enough to run a house for 3 days or so, much longer only using just the necessary items in the house. And if it is connected to a solar array, the grid can be down and that home still has full power.

 

[Old Rocks]

All fine and good, but they are still just storage batteries. The idea is to get away from just storing energy on the car but the car actually /producing/ its own energy instead.

And just how do you propose to do that?

 

[pknopp]

But, it is the government forcing electric vehicles on the people.

How did you get around it being forced on you?

 

[ding]

You are still confused.

I'm sure you do see it that way.

 

[JohnDB]

All fine and good, but they are still just storage batteries. The idea is to get away from just storing energy on the car but the car actually /producing/ its own energy instead.

Well, automobiles have a gas tank which is no different from batteries.
Gasoline, like batteries, has a potential energy when "processed" in an internal combustion engine. No different in theory than batteries.

The problem with batteries is the limited amount of stored energy. Batteries currently at best have less than 16 KWH per pound. Gasoline has 30-60 kwh per pound minimum. Battery cars weigh 2X as much as ICE and the weight never decreases....

However....hybrid vehicles (smaller ICE motors driving generators charging a battery bank) are usually coming in at less weight than ICE vehicles and consuming 20-50% less fuel
Hybrid vehicles could save on fuel costs especially when coupled with "Drive by wire" technology. Where vehicles are all wheel drive when needed or just 2 wheel drive and partially using the unused motors as alternators charging the batteries or braking as needed.

However the tech needs work as there are severe problems with reliability of the systems. (Maintenance and breakdowns)
These issues are solvable with sufficient time and investment (like all that $$$ spent on EV vehicles) and could have given industry a minimum of 20% savings on logistics overnight....helping consumers and the environment.

 

[JohnDB]

In addition....
The big question is why not hybrids?
Why didn't the environmental groups push for attainable science and current technology?

Because of the before mentioned battery/kwh ratio.

At less than 16kwh/lb and gasoline already at 30-60 /kwh....
Raising gasoline kwh rating to 80 or more puts all battery technology far out of the ranks of reasonable technologies to pursue.

And where tons of money has been poured into better batteries for over a century....none has become a winner. (And likely will not)

 

[Captain Caveman]

Present EV's are range limited for doing the things that I do. However, that will change within a couple more years. No, the present EV's are not junk, just as the present ICE vehicles are not junk. But one does get what one pays for, and there are many good used vehicles that have the majority of their usable life left for a fraction of the cost of a new vehicle.

You EV clowns have been repeating that rubbish from day one

 

[JohnDB]

You EV clowns have been repeating that rubbish from day one

I like EVs.....on the golf course.

Lots of uses for EVs....especially inside congested roads in extreme urban environments. Or in enclosed spaces where monoxide poisoning can be a concern....or where petroleum products becomes too expensive per gallon. (Oz/Australia)

But....
Let's get real....no matter when the magic point of no longer using petroleum products for fuel happens. Peak petroleum usage is still 50 years in the future.
Because it's so ingrained into daily life from the clothing we wear to cell phones and tires....there's no getting rid of it. Even food grown in fields uses petroleum products for fertilizers and pesticides. Paint and coating products as well as medecines all use petroleum products.

These product materials all have viable replacements. However the replacement material products cost multiple times what petroleum products do. So in effect it is an involuntary tax on the middle class and especially the poor.

Only the extremely wealthy can afford EVs or environmentally friendly products.

 

[toobfreak]

And just how do you propose to do that?

Haven't we been talking about fuel cells, or weren't you paying attention?

 

[toobfreak]

Well, automobiles have a gas tank which is no different from batteries.

That is idiotic. Gasoline is a volatile fuel which produces chemical energy upon combustion which is then converted to mechanical or electrical energy, a storage battery is merely a holding tank to hold energy already produced elsewhere then kept on hand to be merely bled off.

One is potential, the other kinetic. The gas tank weights maybe 180 pounds, the battery weighs 2000 pounds.

 

[JohnDB]

That is idiotic. Gasoline is a volatile fuel which produces chemical energy upon combustion which is then converted to mechanical or electrical energy, a storage battery is merely a holding tank to hold energy already produced elsewhere then kept on hand to be merely bled off.

One is potential, the other kinetic. The gas tank weights maybe 180 pounds, the battery weighs 2000 pounds.

Woah....
Gasoline is potential energy turned into mechanical energy through combustion (chemical reaction producing hot, expanding gasses) which is measurable into watts or work. (Usually for simplicity it's stated as ft/lbs or torque OR Horsepower.)

Electric batteries have stored or potential energy which is turned into mechanical energy through the creation of magnetism.
There are formulas to equate gasoline motor potential vx electric motor potential which can have stated and rated Horsepower or torque as well.
Stored electricity is no different from a tank of gasoline as far as being potential energy.

A battery doesn't do work. Has to allow electron flow to create work.

Energy is movement. (It's not a solid, liquid, or gas)

Where the BIG HUGE problem exists is in the amount of energy produced per pound of potential energy. A battery has less than 16 kwh per pound. A pound of gasoline has up to 60 kwh. (Almost 4x as much energy) The gasoline will ALWAYS do better because the weight decreases as it is consumed by the engine and escapes away through the tailpipe. Batteries weigh exactly the same full or empty.

However, technology exists to increase the potential of gasoline to an even higher in KWH to 80 or more kwh. Making lithium batteries at 16 kwh a joke. Even if somehow they were able to figure out how to double the energy per pound for lithium batteries the other new gasoline technologies would dwarf lithium battery potential making electric cars still stupid.

And the electricity generated at central locations? It's not exactly generated in the most efficient manner due to the amounts we generate. It's done as effectively and as efficiently as possible....but there are definite efficiency losses all along the way.

 

[Old Rocks]

Haven't we been talking about fuel cells, or weren't you paying attention?

Fuel cells? You still have to carry hydrogen or natural gas on the vehicle, it is not making it's own power.

 

[Old Rocks]

Woah....
Gasoline is potential energy turned into mechanical energy through combustion (chemical reaction producing hot, expanding gasses) which is measurable into watts or work. (Usually for simplicity it's stated as ft/lbs or torque OR Horsepower.)

Electric batteries have stored or potential energy which is turned into mechanical energy through the creation of magnetism.
There are formulas to equate gasoline motor potential vx electric motor potential which can have stated and rated Horsepower or torque as well.
Stored electricity is no different from a tank of gasoline as far as being potential energy.

A battery doesn't do work. Has to allow electron flow to create work.

Energy is movement. (It's not a solid, liquid, or gas)

Where the BIG HUGE problem exists is in the amount of energy produced per pound of potential energy. A battery has less than 16 kwh per pound. A pound of gasoline has up to 60 kwh. (Almost 4x as much energy) The gasoline will ALWAYS do better because the weight decreases as it is consumed by the engine and escapes away through the tailpipe. Batteries weigh exactly the same full or empty.

However, technology exists to increase the potential of gasoline to an even higher in KWH to 80 or more kwh. Making lithium batteries at 16 kwh a joke. Even if somehow they were able to figure out how to double the energy per pound for lithium batteries the other new gasoline technologies would dwarf lithium battery potential making electric cars still stupid.

And the electricity generated at central locations? It's not exactly generated in the most efficient manner due to the amounts we generate. It's done as effectively and as efficiently as possible....but there are definite efficiency losses all along the way.

LOL There are present EV's getting over 400 miles per charge. And there is at least one battery company that is presently starting to produce a battery that will get over 600 miles per charge. As well as another start up that says they have a prototype battery that will get 3000 miles per charge. If that is correct, then you can reduce the size of the battery needed by 2/3rds, and still have a 1000 miles of range.

 

[toobfreak]

Fuel cells? You still have to carry hydrogen or natural gas on the vehicle, it is not making it's own power.

No, I'm talking about the one MIT just developed running off of sodium. No need for difficult to manufacture hydrogen highly pressurized into a tank. Cheap, plentiful sodium is the fuel.

 

[toobfreak]

LOL There are present EV's getting over 400 miles per charge. And there is at least one battery company that is presently starting to produce a battery that will get over 600 miles per charge. As well as another start up that says they have a prototype battery that will get 3000 miles per charge. If that is correct, then you can reduce the size of the battery needed by 2/3rds, and still have a 1000 miles of range.

Sure. In practical tests, EVs rated at 300-350 mile travel only get 250 under real world conditions, even less if very cold, needing heaters, wipers, and stuff.

With an ICE car, you can run the tank dry then refill at the next station. With an EV, even if it says you have lots of charge left, every charging station you pass might be your last, so you must always be mindful of recharging while you still can.

 

[JohnDB]

Fuel cells? You still have to carry hydrogen or natural gas on the vehicle, it is not making it's own power.

There are fuel cells that can use different hydrocarbon fuels. Very efficient and effective. Everything from pure ethanol to JP8 and all points in between. (Zero emissions except for minimal water vapor)

Problem is the requisite platinum becomes contaminated from things like lead, arsenic, and other metals and the fuel cell is no longer viable.

It WAS the reason why there currently exist ethanol pumps at the gas stations. GM WAS going to introduce it as a cheaper way to get around the EPA's Nazi like dictates making ICE vehicles too difficult to produce.
The dictates were becoming impossible. One of the O² sensors had to be placed on the firewall....meaning if it went bad you scrapped the whole vehicle. (Vehicles are built around the engine....engines are not as changeable as they once were in vehicles)

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

That is just no excuse. Progressives still need to go all electric regardless of the costs in order to feel justified and secure.

.

Pretty pathetic.

But they always have been. I remember how pathetic I was until I grew a brain and shed the left cult.


.

 

[JohnDB]

LOL There are present EV's getting over 400 miles per charge. And there is at least one battery company that is presently starting to produce a battery that will get over 600 miles per charge. As well as another start up that says they have a prototype battery that will get 3000 miles per charge. If that is correct, then you can reduce the size of the battery needed by 2/3rds, and still have a 1000 miles of range.

Ok....I'll give you that. Elon has built teslas that can go as far as 400 miles on a charge which is just under 7 hours of driving time. (~6.5)

Where you are wrong is that lithium ion technology is limited to less than 16 KWH/POUND.
the closest and best to go over that (currently) is liquid sodium. ~20-24kwh/lb However the issue is in the melting of the sodium. 60⁰ Celsius is necessary for sodium to liquefy. (Baking soda is the byproduct eventually when it becomes eventually unchargeable....short charging times as well)
Making these still not a viable alternative.

Batteries have a lot of weight....which eats up tires which has been a MAJOR problem all this time. Sure, you can solve distance issues with more batteries....but you still have not solved the issues with tires, weight, or heat.

Meaning....it's still far far behind hybrid technology and Liquid Sodium batteries are not viable yet.

If the money spent on EVs was spent on hybrid tech....a gallon of gas could equal 100 miles for your average vehicle (including trucks and SUVs) as well as reduced tire wear. Using less petroleum products all around.

EV technology is still "pie in the sky".

 

[Crepitus]

I'm sure you do see it that way.

Everybody sees it.