Why not electric tractors?

[ding]

And more heavy equipment turning into EV's;

MSN

My battery powered 80v lawn tools are amazing.

 

[ding]

I think you should buy two!!!!

 

[ding]

Care to post your source for that statement? Here is one source;
"I don't know the actual answer to this question, but I know a least upper bound to the answer, and a means of figuring out the real answer.

Battery scientists have a metric called maximum theoretical specific energy; you can read about the definition in Advanced Batteries by Robert Huggins. Right now, the most energy dense batteries you can buy are lithium ion, which are in the 100-200 Wh/kg range. I don't know what the best battery is, but later in the book, Huggins shows calculations that indicate that Li/CuCl2 cells have an MTSE of 1166.4 Wh/kg. (5x the capacity of current batteries!)

We know that the highest MTSE is at least 1166.4 Wh/kg; you could use his method to calculate the same value for other chemistries, but the search space is pretty large.

I've also seen references on the internet to Li/O2 and Al/O2 batteries with MTSE of 2815 and 5200 Wh/kg, respectively. Not sure how credible those references are. Later references, like this 2008 article in the Journal of the Electrochemical Society, suggest that the MTSE for a Li/O2 cell is around 1400 Wh/kg."

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/4328/whats-the-highest-theoretical-energy-density-for-a-chemical-battery

I think your problem is that you don't know what high energy density means. Because 500 watts per kg is still a low energy density.

A kilogram of gasoline contains approximately 46.4 megajoules (MJ) of energy. This is equivalent to about 13.0 kilowatt-hours (kWh) or 46,000 kilocalories. The energy density of gasoline is also around 34.2 MJ per liter.

 

[Old Rocks]

I did see a video many years ago explaining how physics only allows a battery to hit a certain storage level and no more. Blimey, if a battery could have been made to store the energy that's in diesel and/or petrol, we would be daft not to go down the battery route. But as for tractors, I didn't realise it was that bad.

The maximum efficiency of a diesel engine is about 54%, most operate at 45% or less.

54.4%​

The maximum efficiency of a diesel engine can vary depending on the specific engine and its design. Low-speed diesel engines, such as those used in ships, can achieve an overall energy conversion efficiency of 54.4%, which is the highest for any single-cycle internal or external combustion engine. Engines in large diesel trucks, buses, and newer diesel cars can achieve peak efficiencies around 45%

The efficiency of an electric motor is over 90%. And when you coast or decelerate, you can get some of the energy back. You cannot get gasoline or diesel back. And electricity is far less costly than gasoline or diesel. Not only that the farmer can put in solar and make his own fuel.

 

[ding]

The maximum efficiency of a diesel engine is about 54%, most operate at 45% or less.

54.4%​

The maximum efficiency of a diesel engine can vary depending on the specific engine and its design. Low-speed diesel engines, such as those used in ships, can achieve an overall energy conversion efficiency of 54.4%, which is the highest for any single-cycle internal or external combustion engine. Engines in large diesel trucks, buses, and newer diesel cars can achieve peak efficiencies around 45%

The efficiency of an electric motor is over 90%. And when you coast or decelerate, you can get some of the energy back. You cannot get gasoline or diesel back. And electricity is far less costly than gasoline or diesel. Not only that the farmer can put in solar and make his own fuel.

Ok, adjust for that and report back with the adjusted number for each.

 

[Old Rocks]

I think your problem is that you don't know what high energy density means. Because 500 watts per kg is still a low energy density.

A kilogram of gasoline contains approximately 46.4 megajoules (MJ) of energy. This is equivalent to about 13.0 kilowatt-hours (kWh) or 46,000 kilocalories. The energy density of gasoline is also around 34.2 MJ per liter.

And you will be lucky to get 20% efficiency out of that gasoline engine. What matters is how far your vehicle can go at what cost. Many EV's now match the range of most ICE cars, and they are far less costly to operate. As soon as the less expensive more powerful batteries are in production, EV's with more range that are less costly to operate, fuel and maintenance, and have better performance will drive ICE vehicles off the market.

 

[Dekster]

I saw this video short and was gobsmacked at the poor numbers electric tractors produced. Now imagine the farmers had to go electric, prices would at least triple. So imagine the cost of food in the stores and/or tariffs imposed to keep imports on the same cost level.

IDK. Germany is working on one.

 

[Old Rocks]

Ok, adjust for that and report back with the adjusted number for each.

Well now, let us see what the actual numbers are. Tesla's over the road truck with present batteries covers 500 miles. And does so faster than diesels as it slows less for hills. Now with CATL's 500 watt per Kg battery, that range is 1000 miles. And at far less cost in fuel and maintenance.

 

[ding]

And you will be lucky to get 20% efficiency out of that gasoline engine. What matters is how far your vehicle can go at what cost. Many EV's now match the range of most ICE cars, and they are far less costly to operate. As soon as the less expensive more powerful batteries are in production, EV's with more range that are less costly to operate, fuel and maintenance, and have better performance will drive ICE vehicles off the market.

20% to 40%. Sure. Gasoline and diesel are still high energy density. Like I said, do the math for an EV and an ICE and report back.

 

[Old Rocks]

Hybrids are a great idea. Maybe try again?

Actually, I like them. But I would like to see one with a small gas motor, and large capacity battery. Made for rough country.

 

[ding]

Actually, I like them. But I would like to see one with a small gas motor, and large capacity battery. Made for rough country.

How about this... a smallish capacity battery which is charged by a small high efficiency gasoline powered generator with plug in capability. And make it easy (i.e. standardized and low cost) to swap out the battery and generator.

 

[JohnDB]

A tractor can't carry the batteries and a harrow at the same time. Sure a tractor puts weights at the front of his tractor so he won't tip up when pulling a heavy load....
(Which is where the batteries would go)

But you are talking about an entire barn for batteries and charging.

When a tractor is working the window is short....as it all depends upon the weather.

You plant in the spring....which means dodging rain in muddy fields and yet just dry enough to work. So he will pull 16 hr days back to back to back to get his fields planted or harvested. If it takes an entire tanker of farm diesel to fill his tractor for planting or harvesting....what size of battery bank will he need to keep pace with a 550 HP (or 1000 HP) tractor with batteries?

Farms generally don't use that kind of juice wired to their farms.

Look, if they could figure out logistics trucking with diesel fine... but they really can't currently.

 

[Old Rocks]

How about this... a smallish capacity battery which is charged by a small high efficiency gasoline powered generator with plug in capability. And make it easy (i.e. standardized and low cost) to swap out the battery and generator.

Gas motor efficiency;

Modern gasoline engines have a maximum thermal efficiency of more than 50%, but most road legal cars are only about 20% to 40% efficient when used to power a car. Many engines would be capable of running at higher thermal efficiency but at the cost of higher wear and emissions. Even with regular car maintenance such as a tune-up or an oil change, today’s gasoline engines are only around 30 to 35 percent efficient, which means roughly 65 cents out of every dollar you spend on gas goes to waste.

Small generator efficiency;

• 
  
• Small generators are typically between 30% and 46% efficient, meaning they can convert most of the fuel's chemical energy into electricity, reducing energy waste.

Battery charging efficiency;

• The amount of energy you add to your EV's battery is not equal to the amount of energy available to move your vehicle down the road.
• Generally speaking, your EV may use 12 to 15 percent more energy than what you add to your battery. That number could be lower or higher depending on charging conditions.
• There are a number of reasons for this. Some energy is converted to heat, some is necessary to keep the battery at the right temperature during charging, and some is written off to what's known as "transmission loss."

So you get only about 35% of the energy in the gasoline to run the generator. Then of that, you get only about 46% to the battery, and you lost about 12 percent of that in charging the battery.

Nuff said?

 

[leftwinger]

No farmer is going to sit around 4-8 hours every few hours waiting on a re-charge. They work 4AM-sunset. Are you greens crazy?

 

[ding]

Gas motor efficiency;

Modern gasoline engines have a maximum thermal efficiency of more than 50%, but most road legal cars are only about 20% to 40% efficient when used to power a car. Many engines would be capable of running at higher thermal efficiency but at the cost of higher wear and emissions. Even with regular car maintenance such as a tune-up or an oil change, today’s gasoline engines are only around 30 to 35 percent efficient, which means roughly 65 cents out of every dollar you spend on gas goes to waste.

Small generator efficiency;

• 
  
• Small generators are typically between 30% and 46% efficient, meaning they can convert most of the fuel's chemical energy into electricity, reducing energy waste.

Battery charging efficiency;

• The amount of energy you add to your EV's battery is not equal to the amount of energy available to move your vehicle down the road.
• Generally speaking, your EV may use 12 to 15 percent more energy than what you add to your battery. That number could be lower or higher depending on charging conditions.
• There are a number of reasons for this. Some energy is converted to heat, some is necessary to keep the battery at the right temperature during charging, and some is written off to what's known as "transmission loss."

So you get only about 35% of the energy in the gasoline to run the generator. Then of that, you get only about 46% to the battery, and you lost about 12 percent of that in charging the battery.

Nuff said?

Not really. What was your point? Because I said high efficiency gasoline motor AND generator. As in a nine phase generator. Realistically this is the best chance for EV's.

 

[JohnDB]

Gas motor efficiency;

Modern gasoline engines have a maximum thermal efficiency of more than 50%, but most road legal cars are only about 20% to 40% efficient when used to power a car. Many engines would be capable of running at higher thermal efficiency but at the cost of higher wear and emissions. Even with regular car maintenance such as a tune-up or an oil change, today’s gasoline engines are only around 30 to 35 percent efficient, which means roughly 65 cents out of every dollar you spend on gas goes to waste.

Small generator efficiency;

• 
  
• Small generators are typically between 30% and 46% efficient, meaning they can convert most of the fuel's chemical energy into electricity, reducing energy waste.

Battery charging efficiency;

• The amount of energy you add to your EV's battery is not equal to the amount of energy available to move your vehicle down the road.
• Generally speaking, your EV may use 12 to 15 percent more energy than what you add to your battery. That number could be lower or higher depending on charging conditions.
• There are a number of reasons for this. Some energy is converted to heat, some is necessary to keep the battery at the right temperature during charging, and some is written off to what's known as "transmission loss."

So you get only about 35% of the energy in the gasoline to run the generator. Then of that, you get only about 46% to the battery, and you lost about 12 percent of that in charging the battery.

Nuff said?

Nope....

Passenger vehicles only account for 25% of petroleum products used in the global supply. Commercial use vehicles use the rest with Airplanes and shipping vessels using the majority and trucks using the rest.

So leave the consumer alone. Target commercial vehicles first....consumer passenger vehicles will follow IF you have created a fuel efficiency or viable solution for commercial traffic first that does away with petroleum.

Hybrids COULD have created a win for fuel efficiency that would have worked if the same money was put into finding reliable hybrids as there was into all electric vehicles.

But Democrats wanted too much too fast.
There are lots of hybrid options available. But that wasn't good enough and they shot for "pie in the sky " type stuff... on top of this there us no way to make EVs similarly priced as an ICE car.

 

[Old Rocks]

Ok, adjust for that and report back with the adjusted number for each.

OK, my Dodge Caravan gets 25 mpg at best. At $3.50 per gallon that equals $0.14 per mile. My base rate for power is about $0.08 per Kw/hr. The Tesla X gets about 2.7 miles per Kw/hr. So for an equivalent sized EV, that is about $0.03 per mile. Just under 1/5 as costly per mile as my Caravan. Seems to be much better numbers for EV's.

 

[ding]

OK, my Dodge Caravan gets 25 mpg at best. At $3.50 per gallon that equals $0.14 per mile. My base rate for power is about $0.08 per Kw/hr. The Tesla X gets about 2.7 miles per Kw/hr. So for an equivalent sized EV, that is about $0.03 per mile. Just under 1/5 as costly per mile as my Caravan. Seems to be much better numbers for EV's.

So scale up the requirements for those lithium batteries and get back to me when you realize lithium batteries will never replace all ICE. And I'm not even factoring in all of the environmental or health and safety aspects.

But hey, if you are so dead set against having batteries with on board fossil fuel powered generators, so be it.

 

[Old Rocks]

No farmer is going to sit around 4-8 hours every few hours waiting on a re-charge. They work 4AM-sunset. Are you greens crazy?

Guess what? I have several batteries for some of my tools so as soon as the charge is used up, I just change batteries.

Nope....

Passenger vehicles only account for 25% of petroleum products used in the global supply. Commercial use vehicles use the rest with Airplanes and shipping vessels using the majority and trucks using the rest.

So leave the consumer alone. Target commercial vehicles first....consumer passenger vehicles will follow IF you have created a fuel efficiency or viable solution for commercial traffic first that does away with petroleum.

Hybrids COULD have created a win for fuel efficiency that would have worked if the same money was put into finding reliable hybrids as there was into all electric vehicles.

But Democrats wanted too much too fast.
There are lots of hybrid options available. But that wasn't good enough and they shot for "pie in the sky " type stuff... on top of this there us no way to make EVs similarly priced as an ICE car.

Already being done.

The average price of a new car in the U.S. is currently $48,4011. Prices have generally trended upward but have slightly decreased since the 2022 peak of $49,5071. The most significant price jumps were in luxury and full-size SUVs, with some models now exceeding $100,000

https://insideevs.com/news/565883/electric-car-prices-us/

 

[Old Rocks]

A tractor can't carry the batteries and a harrow at the same time. Sure a tractor puts weights at the front of his tractor so he won't tip up when pulling a heavy load....
(Which is where the batteries would go)

But you are talking about an entire barn for batteries and charging.

When a tractor is working the window is short....as it all depends upon the weather.

You plant in the spring....which means dodging rain in muddy fields and yet just dry enough to work. So he will pull 16 hr days back to back to back to get his fields planted or harvested. If it takes an entire tanker of farm diesel to fill his tractor for planting or harvesting....what size of battery bank will he need to keep pace with a 550 HP (or 1000 HP) tractor with batteries?

Farms generally don't use that kind of juice wired to their farms.

Look, if they could figure out logistics trucking with diesel fine... but they really can't currently.

A D-9 Cat can easily pull a harrow.
"Lumina, a startup founded by 25-year-old entrepreneur Ahmed Shubber, unveiled its first electric bulldozer, the ML6 Moonlander.

The 32-ton prototype, assembled in the UK from nearly 200 suppliers, matches the footprint of a Caterpillar D6 but delivers the power of a D9.
n
It operates for up to 10 hours and recharges to full in 75 minutes using a 300-kilowatt charging station. Inspired by Tesla and Waymo, Lumina is developing both hardware and software in-house to enable future autonomous capabilities."

MSN