Why is there such a HUGE abyss between conservative and liberal politics?

[Woodznutz]

People like you create the conditions for a revolution.

Then it's a good thing there are so few of us.

One reason that I'm so cynical is that I know what it takes for the working man to succeed, and we (they) aren't doing it.

 

[Red Front]

Then it's a good thing there are so few of us.

Yes indeed, good for 94% of the population (the working class) currently living under plutocratic rule. A smaller ruling class, is easier to overthrow in order to establish a genuine democracy (rule of the people) rather than rule of the rich and connected (receiving money from their rich daddy or family trust fund).

 

[Woodznutz]

Yes indeed, good for 94% of the population (the working class) currently living under plutocratic rule. A smaller ruling class, is easier to overthrow in order to establish a genuine democracy (rule of the people) rather than rule of the rich and connected (receiving money from their rich daddy or family trust fund).

Lighten up. I'm strictly working class, but I've made some good decisions to get me where I am. Most are unable to make such decisions as they're too busy making bad ones (been there as well).

 

[Red Front]

Lighten up. I'm strictly working class, but I've made some good decisions to get me where I am. Most are unable to make such decisions as they're too busy making bad ones (been there as well).

Lighten up.

**** you, you condescending, ignorant, cynical fogey.

I'm strictly working class.....

but I've made some good decisions to get me where I am.

That's irrelevant, to everything I've said. You're ignorant, arrogant, cynical, condescending, and indifferent to the plight of the working class in the United States and in the third world, pretending everyone who "makes it" or becomes wealthy does so through "hard work" and "responsible, good decisions", completely ignoring the endemic, systemic flaws and injustices of capitalism (the private pursuit of profits). You ignore the role socioeconomic classes have in creating extreme inequality, through government policies advanced by the rich (capitalists) that undermine labor rights, and the public good in general.

You're declaring yourself a member of the working class (those who need to sell their labor power to a capitalist to survive), as if being of that socioeconomic class simply requires "working". Elon Musk, the billionaire, works. Many wealthy people work. Some work quite hard. Just because you work, even work hard, doesn't qualify you as a working-class person. You're a wealthy working person, but you're not a working-class person. Do you get what I'm saying? The members of the "working class", are those who need to work for a wage. Under capitalism, if you rely on a capitalist to pay you a wage in order to survive (eat and have a roof over your head) or anyone else (e.g. the government/government employees), you're a working-class person, with certain unique, particular needs.

A multi-millionaire or billionaire might work, but he/she doesn't need "a job", to earn a wage from an employer, who employs him or her. The wealthy worker could spend the whole day at the country club playing golf or at the beach, hence he has that peace of mind. He works to have something to do, or because he's committed to a certain vocation, passion, mission..etc. He wants to live a purpose-driven life and perhaps use his or her wealth to make the world a better place. Hard-working wealthy people work for many reasons, even though they don't have to.

Work in a way is human, it's a very human trait. Not working can and usually does undermine one's physical and mental health. Working for the sake of working is healthier than doing nothing.

The working class are people who need to work for a wage, in order to eat and house themselves. Unfortunately, people who think, vote, and live like you, undermine the worker's ability to earn a living wage and have a decent, well-provisioned life. Well-fed, adequately housed, with access to effective, functional transportation (a personal vehicle or/and access to a good public transit system), well-educated and/or vocationally trained (acquiring marketable skills/a trade). Good (relatively safe) working conditions, employed under good terms (overtime pay, medical benefits, sick leave, vacation once a year)..etc.

People like you undermine capitalism, because unlike the "old wealth", the more intelligent rich....

1. Rockefeller
2. Vanderbilt
3. Astor
4. Du Pont
5. Rothschild
6. Windsor
7. Mellon
8. Carnegie
9. Getty
10. Harriman
11. Morgan
12. Guggenheim
13. Kennedy
14. Hearst
15. Whitney

Who have realized, at least for the last 90 years or so, that their workers are crucial for their success, and human labor has needs that must be met (social security, Medicare, Medicaid, VA benefits, GI Bill, FAFSA, Unemployment, a robust national social safety net/social goods/government infrastructure), unlike your stupid, Donald Trump "new rich", right-wing, condescending, self-serving attitude, that holds the working class with contempt, for being who they are.

Your type of rich is always shitting on the government, out of spite and fear, because you recognize that the working class expresses its power in society, via labor unions and the government. They (the working class, and the public at large) have the majority vote. That's why the retarded right-wing, simpleton rich, always undermine democracy. They have armies of lobbyists in the halls of government, legally bribing politicians to pass laws that serve their vested interests, often at the expense of the working class (the public good).

Most are unable to make such decisions as they're too busy making bad ones (been there as well).

People like you who for one reason or another, were fortunate enough to amass material wealth and security, see yourself as superior to the employee or waged worker. You supposedly "made it", due to only "making good decisions and being special", and those who don't "make it" are doing the opposite of that, because in your simplistic, stupid fantasy world, to "make it" is to become RICH WITH STUFF and not be an employee. Well, first of all, you're not being friendly to capitalism when you take that position, because capitalism needs employees earning wages, in order to generate revenue. Without wage-labor there's no market, hence you need to re-formulate your values and world-view to redefine what "making it" means.

I'm a well-paid machinist, who works in a factory three days weekly. I'm a member of a powerful union, and although most of my time is now spent coding CNC machines in an office, I remember the days when I was in the workshop, surrounded by dangerous machinery, spewing toxic fumes and oil into the air, which I had to avoid by a wearing a mask, goggles, gloves..etc. I did that till I was in my late 30s, about 12, or 13 years ago. Capitalism and the market (paying consumers), need people like me, because I produce real stuff, that people seriously need. I don't need to be "rich" to "make it". I'm a skilled worker, I know what my value is to society.

I've made very good decisions, and if I get punished for being a worker, and not becoming a wealthy landlord like you, it's not because I did something wrong. Society needs machinists and factories. Right now I'm training the AI that is going to replace me. It's like when American factories close down and they have their management train the Mexican management team, which is going to replace them, in the new factory in Mexico. I am training the AI, on how to code CNC machines. Within the next five or seven years, around 2030, I'm out of a job. I'll be 57 in 2030. My wife and I started a business online, and we're doing well. I don't even have to continue going to the factory three days a week, but I do because I love machining. I love what I do and I get paid well to do it.

You keep repeating that you've made good decisions and that the working class hasn't because they're not landlords or wealthy capitalists. Capitalism needs people like me to survive because I take my wage (my well-earned income) and buy stuff. Your tenants pay their rent/s, to you. Where do you think their money comes from? Most likely, their jobs. They need to work for a capitalist (or the government), to pay their bills. So when your politics undermines people's ability to earn a living wage, you undermine your wealth. Your own income is jeopardized by your stupid right-wing politics, which undermines the public good, for the sake of short-term profits. Smart rich people, mostly the older, more mature wealthy people, understand this. You don't. You're the new stupid rich.

Capitalism needs wage labor, and it's not dishonorable, or a mistake or a personal deficiency to be an employee under this capitalist system. The foundation of capitalism is wage labor. Without wages, there aren't any paying consumers or markets. The whole edifice of capitalism collapses without the working class.

BTW, don't even waste your time telling me this post is too long. I don't respond to your stupid posts to convince you of anything. I know you're brain-dead. I do this for others, not you.

 

[Woodznutz]

**** you, you condescending, ignorant, cynical fogey.



View attachment 839936



That's irrelevant, to everything I've said. You're ignorant, arrogant, cynical, condescending, and indifferent to the plight of the working class in the United States and in the third world, pretending everyone who "makes it" or becomes wealthy does so through "hard work" and "responsible, good decisions", completely ignoring the endemic, systemic flaws and injustices of capitalism (the private pursuit of profits). You ignore the role socioeconomic classes have in creating extreme inequality, through government policies advanced by the rich (capitalists) that undermine labor rights, and the public good in general.

You're declaring yourself a member of the working class (those who need to sell their labor power to a capitalist to survive), as if being of that socioeconomic class simply requires "working". Elon Musk, the billionaire, works. Many wealthy people work. Some work quite hard. Just because you work, even work hard, doesn't qualify you as a working-class person. You're a wealthy working person, but you're not a working-class person. Do you get what I'm saying? The members of the "working class", are those who need to work for a wage. Under capitalism, if you rely on a capitalist to pay you a wage in order to survive (eat and have a roof over your head) or anyone else (e.g. the government/government employees), you're a working-class person, with certain unique, particular needs.

A multi-millionaire or billionaire might work, but he/she doesn't need "a job", to earn a wage from an employer, who employs him or her. The wealthy worker could spend the whole day at the country club playing golf or at the beach, hence he has that peace of mind. He works to have something to do, or because he's committed to a certain vocation, passion, mission..etc. He wants to live a purpose-driven life and perhaps use his or her wealth to make the world a better place. Hard-working wealthy people work for many reasons, even though they don't have to.

Work in a way is human, it's a very human trait. Not working can and usually does undermine one's physical and mental health. Working for the sake of working is healthier than doing nothing.

The working class are people who need to work for a wage, in order to eat and house themselves. Unfortunately, people who think, vote, and live like you, undermine the worker's ability to earn a living wage and have a decent, well-provisioned life. Well-fed, adequately housed, with access to effective, functional transportation (a personal vehicle or/and access to a good public transit system), well-educated and/or vocationally trained (acquiring marketable skills/a trade). Good (relatively safe) working conditions, employed under good terms (overtime pay, medical benefits, sick leave, vacation once a year)..etc.

People like you undermine capitalism, because unlike the "old wealth", the more intelligent rich....

1. Rockefeller
2. Vanderbilt
3. Astor
4. Du Pont
5. Rothschild
6. Windsor
7. Mellon
8. Carnegie
9. Getty
10. Harriman
11. Morgan
12. Guggenheim
13. Kennedy
14. Hearst
15. Whitney

Who have realized, at least for the last 90 years or so, that their workers are crucial for their success, and human labor has needs that must be met (social security, Medicare, Medicaid, VA benefits, GI Bill, FAFSA, Unemployment, a robust national social safety net/social goods/government infrastructure), unlike your stupid, Donald Trump "new rich", right-wing, condescending, self-serving attitude, that holds the working class with contempt, for being who they are.

Your type of rich is always shitting on the government, out of spite and fear, because you recognize that the working class expresses its power in society, via labor unions and the government. They (the working class, and the public at large) have the majority vote. That's why the retarded right-wing, simpleton rich, always undermine democracy. They have armies of lobbyists in the halls of government, legally bribing politicians to pass laws that serve their vested interests, often at the expense of the working class (the public good).


People like you who for one reason or another, were fortunate enough to amass material wealth and security, see yourself as superior to the employee or waged worker. You supposedly "made it", due to only "making good decisions and being special", and those who don't "make it" are doing the opposite of that, because in your simplistic, stupid fantasy world, to "make it" is to become RICH WITH STUFF and not be an employee. Well, first of all, you're not being friendly to capitalism when you take that position, because capitalism needs employees earning wages, in order to generate revenue. Without wage-labor there's no market, hence you need to re-formulate your values and world-view to redefine what "making it" means.

I'm a well-paid machinist, who works in a factory three days weekly. I'm a member of a powerful union, and although most of my time is now spent coding CNC machines in an office, I remember the days when I was in the workshop, surrounded by dangerous machinery, spewing toxic fumes and oil into the air, which I had to avoid by a wearing a mask, goggles, gloves..etc. I did that till I was in my late 30s, about 12, or 13 years ago. Capitalism and the market (paying consumers), need people like me, because I produce real stuff, that people seriously need. I don't need to be "rich" to "make it". I'm a skilled worker, I know what my value is to society.

I've made very good decisions, and if I get punished for being a worker, and not becoming a wealthy landlord like you, it's not because I did something wrong. Society needs machinists and factories. Right now I'm training the AI that is going to replace me. It's like when American factories close down and they have their management train the Mexican management team, which is going to replace them, in the new factory in Mexico. I am training the AI, on how to code CNC machines. Within the next five or seven years, around 2030, I'm out of a job. I'll be 57 in 2030. My wife and I started a business online, and we're doing well. I don't even have to continue going to the factory three days a week, but I do because I love machining. I love what I do and I get paid well to do it.

You keep repeating that you've made good decisions and that the working class hasn't because they're not landlords or wealthy capitalists. Capitalism needs people like me to survive because I take my wage (my well-earned income) and buy stuff. Your tenants pay their rent/s, to you. Where do you think their money comes from? Most likely, their jobs. They need to work for a capitalist (or the government), to pay their bills. So when your politics undermines people's ability to earn a living wage, you undermine your wealth. Your own income is jeopardized by your stupid right-wing politics, which undermines the public good, for the sake of short-term profits. Smart rich people, mostly the older, more mature wealthy people, understand this. You don't. You're the new stupid rich.

Capitalism needs wage labor, and it's not dishonorable, or a mistake or a personal deficiency to be an employee under this capitalist system. The foundation of capitalism is wage labor. Without wages, there aren't any paying consumers or markets. The whole edifice of capitalism collapses without the working class.

BTW, don't even waste your time telling me this post is too long. I don't respond to your stupid posts to convince you of anything. I know you're brain-dead. I do this for others, not you.

I hate to break it to you, but you and I are a lot alike, so I don't know why you're beating up on me. I'm much older than you, but I think you'll be more like me when you reach my age.

Also, your rant is filled with false assumptions about me.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Positional arguments and "us vs them". This ensures that no middle ground is met, among many other considerations in the West. This sharp division is not exclusive to America unfortunately.

 

[Red Front]

I hate to break it to you, but you and I are a lot alike, so I don't know why you're beating up on me. I'm much older than you, but I think you'll be more like me when you reach my age.

Also, your rant is filled with false assumptions about me.

You continually talk about making the "right decisions", and how working-class people don't do that, hence their difficult situation today, with respect to the cost of living, lower wages, and fewer labor rights (due to the break up of many labor unions). According to you, It's all the fault of working-class people, not the rich elites, or large corporations. They're just the "good, smart people of the world" who "made the right decisions". How naive and ignorant, how self-serving can you be, resorting to such fallacious, disingenuous rhetoric?

You continually blame the working class for everything negative that's happening to them and the economy in general while conveniently ignoring all of the injustice, cronyism, and indifference (sociopathic profiteering) of the affluent and privileged. You create such horrible conditions for the working class, that eventually the pitchforks come out. You generate the conditions for a violent revolution. The new rich, are shallow and fail, if not refuse to realize the importance of the working class. They think they're the big Kahoonas, who can essentially do whatever they want, and "**** the workers, they're all a bunch of losers, who aren't making good decisions, hence all their problems". That's their foolish attitude, which eventually leads to the demise of capitalism. The smart capitalists, know better:

​

 

[Woodznutz]

You continually talk about making the "right decisions", and how working-class people don't do that, hence their difficult situation today, with respect to the cost of living, lower wages, and fewer labor rights (due to the break up of many labor unions). According to you, It's all the fault of working-class people, not the rich elites, or large corporations. They're just the "good, smart people of the world" who "made the right decisions". How naive and ignorant, how self-serving can you be, resorting to such fallacious, disingenuous rhetoric?

You continually blame the working class for everything negative that's happening to them and the economy in general while conveniently ignoring all of the injustice, cronyism, and indifference (sociopathic profiteering) of the affluent and privileged. You create such horrible conditions for the working class, that eventually the pitchforks come out. You generate the conditions for a violent revolution. The new rich, are shallow and fail, if not refuse to realize the importance of the working class. They think they're the big Kahoonas, who can essentially do whatever they want, and "**** the workers, they're all a bunch of losers, who aren't making good decisions, hence all their problems". That's their foolish attitude, which eventually leads to the demise of capitalism. The smart capitalists, know better:

​

I speak from experience and observation. As a younger worker I made lots of poor financial decisions which kept me poor. As I got older, I made better (and necessary) decisions which have served me well. Young people today have a 'sense of entitlement' unknown in my day. This leads to lackadaisical attitudes towards just about everything including finances. There were no credit cards in my early days so there was little personal consumer debt. Today this debt is rampant and crushing. So, comparing the working class then and now is a false equivalency. We had to 'delay gratification' until we could pay for things in cash.

Regarding the rich, it is working class consumers that have made them so. A new smartphone comes out every few months and millions of people who can't afford it, or the plan, fall all over themselves to buy it. Not good decision making.

Regarding personal wealth, I think you earn much more than I do, as I don't do skilled work (yup, I'm still working). I also believe that your net worth is likely greater than mine as well. Also, as you have stated that you have started a business you are no longer working class but business class. And if your business expands you will likely take advantage of the labor others as many if not most do.

By today's standards I am not 'rich', but I am in the upper middle class in income and wealth, but only because of Social Security benefits and investment income in addition to my wages.

 

[Red Front]

I speak from experience and observation. As a younger worker I made lots of poor financial decisions which kept me poor. As I got older, I made better (and necessary) decisions which have served me well. Young people today have a 'sense of entitlement' unknown in my day. This leads to lackadaisical attitudes towards just about everything including finances. There were no credit cards in my early days so there was little personal consumer debt. Today this debt is rampant and crushing. So, comparing the working class then and now is a false equivalency. We had to 'delay gratification' until we could pay for things in cash.

Regarding the rich, it is working class consumers that have made them so. A new smartphone comes out every few months and millions of people who can't afford it, or the plan, fall all over themselves to buy it. Not good decision making.

Regarding personal wealth, I think you earn much more than I do, as I don't do skilled work (yup, I'm still working). I also believe that your net worth is likely greater than mine as well. Also, as you have stated that you have started a business you are no longer working class but business class. And if your business expands you will likely take advantage of the labor others as many if not most do.

By today's standards I am not 'rich', but I am in the upper middle class in income and wealth, but only because of Social Security benefits and investment income in addition to my wages.

I speak from experience and observation. As a younger worker I made lots of poor financial decisions which kept me poor. As I got older, I made better (and necessary) decisions which have served me well. Young people today have a 'sense of entitlement unknown in my day. '...

You and your ilk are the ones with the "sense of entitlement". You were born and raised in the golden age of America's economy, after WW2. You have no right to criticize the younger generation, which is now trying to work and survive under your right-wing "trickle-down" Reaganomics. You continue spewing the same bullshit rhetoric against the working class, pretending the wealthy capitalist class is innocent and the working class is at fault, for the gross inequality, loss of labor rights, the gutting of our nation's manufacturing base, the high cost of living, and a myriad of factors that you conveniently ignore.

This leads to lackadaisical attitudes towards just about everything including finances. There were no credit cards in my early days so there was little personal consumer debt. Today this debt is rampant and crushing. So, comparing the working class then and now is a false equivalency. We had to 'delay gratification' until we could pay for things in cash.

You're so dishonest.

• In the 1980s, as wealth became more concentrated at the top, the working class found themselves with stagnant wages, despite rising costs of living. This economic squeeze made credit cards not just an option, but often a necessity for many to cover basic expenses.
• The 1980s saw significant shifts in the American economic landscape. Manufacturing jobs, which had been a staple of the American working class, began to move overseas due to globalization and the search for cheaper labor.
• Policies during the Reagan administration, such as tax cuts for the wealthy and reduced spending on social programs, further strained the working class. With fewer job opportunities and reduced social safety nets, many turned to credit as a means to make ends meet.
• The rise in credit card debt during this period can be linked to these austerity measures and the economic pressures they placed on the working class.

You're a very confused and disingenuous old man. You're not a member of the working class and I doubt you ever were. You're most likely a wealthy trust fund baby.

Regarding the rich, it is working-class consumers that have made them so.

Workers/Consumers made them rich.

A new smartphone comes out every few months and millions of people who can't afford it, or the plan, fall all over themselves to buy it. Not good decision making.

Today everyone needs a smartphone to function in society. Such consumer practices, have nothing to do with the endemic, systemic flaws and injustices of capitalism. Capitalists control the government through their wealth, and pass laws that undermine the financial interests and livelihoods of the working class. You can continue avoiding reality and pretending the issues you're mentioning vindicate or justify the destructive, self-serving practices of the wealthy plutocratic elites, but it certainly doesn't. Again, you're a very confused, right-winger.

Regarding personal wealth, I think you earn much more than I do, as I don't do skilled work (yup, I'm still working). I also believe that your net worth is likely greater than mine as well. Also, as you have stated that you have started a business you are no longer working class

but business class. And if your business expands you will likely take advantage of the labor others as many if not most do.

By today's standards I am not 'rich', but I am in the upper middle class in income and wealth, but only because of Social Security benefits and investment income in addition to my wages.

I'm an employee, earning a wage, hence I'm of the working class. My business doesn't make me a member of the wealthy, capitalist class until I begin to hire workers. I will never have to do that, due to the nature of my online business. My business consists of creating landing pages for different products and then investing in ads on social media, driving targeted traffic to my landing pages. I don't need anyone to work for me. My wife places the ads and I launch the landing pages. I earn more money doing that than with my job, but I like my job. I also have some very good benefits, thanks to my labor union. Without that union, I would be making much less and I would perhaps not have any benefits.

 

[Woodznutz]

You and your ilk are the ones with the "sense of entitlement". You were born and raised in the golden age of America's economy, after WW2. You have no right to criticize the younger generation, which is now trying to work and survive under your right-wing "trickle-down" Reaganomics. You continue spewing the same bullshit rhetoric against the working class, pretending the wealthy capitalist class is innocent and the working class is at fault, for the gross inequality, loss of labor rights, the gutting of our nation's manufacturing base, the high cost of living, and a myriad of factors that you conveniently ignore.



You're so dishonest.

• In the 1980s, as wealth became more concentrated at the top, the working class found themselves with stagnant wages, despite rising costs of living. This economic squeeze made credit cards not just an option, but often a necessity for many to cover basic expenses.
• The 1980s saw significant shifts in the American economic landscape. Manufacturing jobs, which had been a staple of the American working class, began to move overseas due to globalization and the search for cheaper labor.
• Policies during the Reagan administration, such as tax cuts for the wealthy and reduced spending on social programs, further strained the working class. With fewer job opportunities and reduced social safety nets, many turned to credit as a means to make ends meet.
• The rise in credit card debt during this period can be linked to these austerity measures and the economic pressures they placed on the working class.

You're a very confused and disingenuous old man. You're not a member of the working class and I doubt you ever were. You're most likely a wealthy trust fund baby.



Workers/Consumers made them rich.



Today everyone needs a smartphone to function in society. Such consumer practices, have nothing to do with the endemic, systemic flaws and injustices of capitalism. Capitalists control the government through their wealth, and pass laws that undermine the financial interests and livelihoods of the working class. You can continue avoiding reality and pretending the issues you're mentioning vindicate or justify the destructive, self-serving practices of the wealthy plutocratic elites, but it certainly doesn't. Again, you're a very confused, right-winger.




I'm an employee, earning a wage, hence I'm of the working class. My business doesn't make me a member of the wealthy, capitalist class until I begin to hire workers. I will never have to do that, due to the nature of my online business. My business consists of creating landing pages for different products and then investing in ads on social media, driving targeted traffic to my landing pages. I don't need anyone to work for me. My wife places the ads and I launch the landing pages. I earn more money doing that than with my job, but I like my job. I also have some very good benefits, thanks to my labor union. Without that union, I would be making much less and I would perhaps not have any benefits.

Once again you are confusing me with someone else. I work for wages, thus I'm still 'working class'. I bought an apartment building to fund my retirement, which it has done nicely. I sold the building and invested the money in protected instruments like CD's.

My company isn't unionized, offers good health insurance but no retirement plan. I collect SS but have to pay taxes on most of it. It too gets invested as I don't need it right now.

I live a spartan lifestyle, drive and older car, never go out for dinner or movies, and don't need a smartphone. In fact, the only time I turn my 'old folks' mobile phone on is when I travel or have to take a call away from my landline. I eat cheap, patch the holes in my trouser knees with duct tape, wear t-shirts and sweatshirts for work.

Regarding today's economic climate compared to when I started out, today is much better, many more opportunities for workers as well as better pay. I would trade the 1960's for the 2000's any day.

Regarding the 'plight' of the working man. Here's the recipe for failure,

Limit of 40 hours of work per week.
Chase the so-called 'American Dream'.
Retire at 65.

All less than ideal financial decisions for most workers.

FYI, I do this for others as well.

 

[Woodznutz]

I don't need to be "rich" to "make it". I'm a skilled worker, I know what my value is to society.

What is your value to yourself, in monetary terms?

Most people have a 'price', a level of income that satisfies them. I achieved mine and no longer have to think much about it. Mine is $100,000 yr/income and $1million in savings, modest by today's standards. It took me until age 80 to achieve this but this was my goal. Many don't need much wealth to be content as there are other things that are equally important to them. Even in this economy most working people can attain financial content. Of course, it doesn't happen overnight.

 

[Red Front]

What is your value to yourself, in monetary terms?

Most people have a 'price', a level of income that satisfies them. I achieved mine and no longer have to think much about it. Mine is $100,000 yr/income and $1million in savings, modest by today's standards. It took me until age 80 to achieve this but this was my goal. Many don't need much wealth to be content as there are other things that are equally important to them. Even in this economy most working people can attain financial content. Of course, it doesn't happen overnight.

When you were raising a family in the 1960s and '70s, the '80s, the economy and employment opportunities, including labor rights, and vocational job training, all of that was more accessible, than today. You were fortunate enough to make it to your 40s before the US started gutting the middle class with its "trickle-down economics", breaking up unions, stripping workers of their long-held benefits, and better pay. The cost of living began to exceed salaries, forcing people to live more on credit and send women to work. So much for "family values". In my home, in the 1980s, even my grandma worked. I was a latchkey kid. I would arrive from school to an empty home.

Between 1981 and 2020, we lost 70K factories and tens of millions of manufacturing jobs, that once supported families, with one breadwinner. Our prosperous economy after WW2 was based upon manufacturing and exporting high-quality, sought-after American products. It's your right-wing, conservative politics, that forced us in the 1980s, to switch to a high-finance, speculative trading/Wall Street-based economy, leading to the destruction of our nation's manufacturing base. This is what has led to the deplorable state the working class is in today. That includes the consumer credit card debt that you were blaming the working class for in an earlier post. American consumers didn't start using credit cards in any significant way until the 1980s, in order to survive. Conservatives like you create the nasty, austere conditions that push workers into poverty.

 

[Red Front]

Once again you are confusing me with someone else. I work for wages, thus I'm still 'working class'. I bought an apartment building to fund my retirement, which it has done nicely. I sold the building and invested the money in protected instruments like CD's.

My company isn't unionized, offers good health insurance but no retirement plan. I collect SS but have to pay taxes on most of it. It too gets invested as I don't need it right now.

I live a spartan lifestyle, drive and older car, never go out for dinner or movies, and don't need a smartphone. In fact, the only time I turn my 'old folks' mobile phone on is when I travel or have to take a call away from my landline. I eat cheap, patch the holes in my trouser knees with duct tape, wear t-shirts and sweatshirts for work.

Regarding today's economic climate compared to when I started out, today is much better, many more opportunities for workers as well as better pay. I would trade the 1960's for the 2000's any day.

Regarding the 'plight' of the working man. Here's the recipe for failure,

Limit of 40 hours of work per week.
Chase the so-called 'American Dream'.
Retire at 65.

All less than ideal financial decisions for most workers.

FYI, I do this for others as well.

No I'm not confusing you with anyone else. You've managed to purchase some real estate so now you feel like you're in a position to shit on the working class (lecturing the younger working class), pretending you've "made good decisions" and that's why you're financially secure at 80.

How about working families now, who aren't senior citizens receiving a government entitlement income or Medicare? Your remarks about the current job market and employment opportunities would be laughable if not for being so pathetic and disingenuous. Young people today have very few employment opportunities compared to when you were younger. The cost of living today is through the roof, pay is often not enough to cover one's basic expenses, and advanced automation technology is eliminating jobs.

Your dismissive attitude only exacerbates the problem, because you're the type of person who votes for policies that undermine the working class. You're essentially ensuring socialism is adopted sooner rather than later. Socialism is inevitable due to advanced automation, but smart capitalists would extend the life of capitalism another 100 years.

They could do it, if they took care of their workers. If they convinced the government to pay everyone a "Universal Income"..etc. Otherwise, socialism is around the corner, thanks to your destructive right-wing, conservative politics, which eats the poor and working-class/middle-class.

 

[candycorn]

Liberals understand this:

Conservatives believe you can.

You can't.

 

[Invisibleflash]

Very simple...look at the policies.

Confiscate guns...don't confiscate guns.
Murder babies...don't murder babies.
Open border...secure, closed border.
Queerify kids...don't queerify kids.
...and on and on.

 

[Red Front]

Very simple...look at the policies.

Confiscate guns...don't confiscate guns.
Murder babies...don't murder babies.
Open border...secure, closed border.
Queerify kids...don't queerify kids.
...and on and on.

You're just shallow and naive. You murder real babies, the ones who are out of the womb and breathing. You support wars overseas that shouldn't be fought. You defund government programs that help the poor, including single mothers. That actually creates situations where single women who get pregnant, feel like they have to get an abortion, lest they give birth to a child they can't afford to raise. Many children whose mothers can't afford to raise them, are given to the state and are raised in foster care. The % of children who are raised in the foster care system in America and end up homeless or in prison is several times more than what it is for people born and raised by two loving parents who can afford them.

You continue to support a "drug war". which causes more harm and death, especially when you criminalize addicts. You make it less likely for these people to stop drugging and get back on their feet. Your self-righteous right-wing policies are just as destructive, if not more so, than that of the democrats.

 

[Woodznutz]

No I'm not confusing you with anyone else. You've managed to purchase some real estate so now you feel like you're in a position to shit on the working class (lecturing the younger working class), pretending you've "made good decisions" and that's why you're financially secure at 80.

How about working families now, who aren't senior citizens receiving a government entitlement income or Medicare? Your remarks about the current job market and employment opportunities would be laughable if not for being so pathetic and disingenuous. Young people today have very few employment opportunities compared to when you were younger. The cost of living today is through the roof, pay is often not enough to cover one's basic expenses, and advanced automation technology is eliminating jobs.

Your dismissive attitude only exacerbates the problem, because you're the type of person who votes for policies that undermine the working class. You're essentially ensuring socialism is adopted sooner rather than later. Socialism is inevitable due to advanced automation, but smart capitalists would extend the life of capitalism another 100 years.

They could do it, if they took care of their workers. If they convinced the government to pay everyone a "Universal Income"..etc. Otherwise, socialism is around the corner, thanks to your destructive right-wing, conservative politics, which eats the poor and working-class/middle-class.

I don't think things are as bad as you are making them out to be.

 

[Woodznutz]

Liberals understand this:

View attachment 840470

Conservatives believe you can.

You can't.

Insisting that people live responsibly isn't 'treating them like garbage'.

 

[Woodznutz]

You continue to support a "drug war". which causes more harm and death, especially when you criminalize addicts.

Addicts are criminals who don't give a shit if the whole world collapses because of them.

 

[Red Front]

Addicts are criminals who don't give a shit if the whole world collapses because of them.

You're the self-righteous, right-wing fogey criminal, who turns the whole world to shit. The sooner you old-school fascists get out of here the better. The abuse of hard drugs is a medical condition hence the best way to address the problem is medically, not by locking people up in a penitentiary with rapists and murderers. After jail or prison, these drug addicts are burdened with criminal records, making it even more difficult for them to recover. The criminals are those who smuggle and sell the drugs, not their victims.

For the sale of hard drugs like cocaine, heroin, and fentanyl, I would impose the death penalty (death by firing squad) and I would send the addicts to rehab. Ejudicate them, forcing them to get treatment in an institution, until they recover. The answer is tough love, not what you're advocating which is to criminalize addicts, making their lives even worse, and unrecoverable. An old right-wing fogey-square asshole like you would want that.