Why I Am Not A Christian

[Ava]

Since you, Madeline, and others, are relatively new to USMB, as I, I will state my beliefs again.

I am an agnostic. That is why I am not a Christian. And while I live a Buddha like lifestyle, I am not a Buddhist, for I do not believe in an afterlife. I also do not wish to be bound by the constraints of marriage[ again ] or religion. I live instead, a Christian-like or Buddha-like existence and am very happy with a kind and compassionate nature. I live a moral life. Heaven and hell are right here on earth, and you will experience them as often as your choices take you there.

I believe in the universal law of cause and effect--the empowering conviction that we all ultimately direct our own lives.

Well now, this is fascinating. I agree with you -- to a point. But what could European Jews have done to warrant the Death Camps? Or Russians, to "attract" Stalin?

I do not speak to the power of despots or the desperation of innocent people.

 

[Madeline]

I do agree women will be more apt to give head if they get it but I never really cared for it......unless I was driving.....

Unless you wre driving?? Isn't that even more distracting than talking on you cell phone?

You ask this question as if you cannot reference personal experience, Anguille. Are cars built so differently now?

*Grins*

 

[Madeline]

Since you, Madeline, and others, are relatively new to USMB, as I, I will state my beliefs again.

I am an agnostic. That is why I am not a Christian. And while I live a Buddha like lifestyle, I am not a Buddhist, for I do not believe in an afterlife. I also do not wish to be bound by the constraints of marriage[ again ] or religion. I live instead, a Christian-like or Buddha-like existence and am very happy with a kind and compassionate nature. I live a moral life. Heaven and hell are right here on earth, and you will experience them as often as your choices take you there.

I believe in the universal law of cause and effect--the empowering conviction that we all ultimately direct our own lives.

Well now, this is fascinating. I agree with you -- to a point. But what could European Jews have done to warrant the Death Camps? Or Russians, to "attract" Stalin?

I do not speak to the power of despots or the desperation of innocent people.

How do we measure despair? Or innocence?

Lemme tell you a story about an evil act I committed.

I am intolerant in the extreme of abuse -- of the elderly, of women, of kidlets, etc. One day I went to the grocery and saw a young woman lift her kidlet, about two, off the floor with his arm, using a twirling motion that swept his feet out from under him. You might not know -- and likely she didn't -- that this move, which usually causes no pain or injury, is a great way to tear a kidlet's rotator cuff. Such injuries can leave a kidlet permanently disabled.

So I yelled at the woman -- even though she was obviously poor, stressed out and overwhelmed. And she dropped the kidlet, so there was that. But whose needs did I serve? If I had spoken calmly and compassionately to her, she most likely would have listened. She might have learned to never do that again (as opposed to never doing it again in public). She might have felt validated, human and supported....but MY Pride came first. I was wealthy and obviously powerful, and I knew I could frighten her, so I did.

Scaring a young mom on the edge...now there's an accomplishment to be proud of, huh?

Evil is not always a direct descendant of one of the Ten Commandments, but it is never hard to see. I could feel my impulses were wrong as I spoke, but I gave in anyway...and became just one more person to exploit that lady's poverty and despair for my own use. And now I get to live with that memory my whole life long -- as likely, so does she.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Alright, specific in terms of a non believer you say may be wrong and have to answer for it later by standing in front of god. What then?

Again is believing the price of entrance?

Yes, it is.

Now I am not beating up on you PS so please dont think I am putting you on the spot.

So what you are saying it makes no difference if Maddie lives her life as a model of kindness and consideration,truth and love. She makes all the right decisions and always does the right thing. More or less a saint. This all forgiving god will not let her in because she is a mistaken non believer?

What happens to the believer who is a fring evil person? Not bad enough to go to hell but dam bad in many aspects of life. Because they are a believer will they get in?

Why should God forgive someone for something they're not ashamed of and haven't asked for forgiveness for? Why should He reward them for thumbing their noses at Him their entire lives and deliberately doing the exact opposite of what He told them was required? And lastly, don't you find it laughable on the face of it that anyone COULD "earn their way into Heaven" by being good enough to impress God Almighty?

One doesn't go to Heaven because one is a good person and has "earned" it by their good works. The Bible is quite clear on that. Nor does one go to Hell for being a bad person. The Bible is also very clear that NONE of us is good enough, and all of us have fallen short. One goes to Heaven because one has asked forgiveness and accepted God's grace, and one goes to Hell because one has NOT asked forgiveness and rejected that grace.

And I would like to take this moment to point out that I have chosen to answer these questions because I feel that you have asked politely and sincerely, as Mad did not.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I know what I would say...


"god...you are a jerk!

punishing people for such petty offenses is sick

NOBODY deserves to burn in hell forever simply for having sex outside of marriage
or getting divorced
or being gay
or for just not believing in you

plenty of DECENT and GOOD and HONORABLE people indulge in these acts andthey do NOT deserve to be punished for all eternity...

god
you are a sick bastard
and you should seek help

and
one last thing
you are completely wrong about slavery

slavery is NOT acceptable!

slavery is BAD!

now...go to your room and think about what you've done

and I don't want you to come out until you are ready to apoligize to ALL of mankind"

I find it mildly amusing that you presume to tell an all powerful being what is right and what is wrong rather than to learn directly from Him. You have an incorrect understanding of God and yet somehow it's His fault.

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people have the hubris to try to hold God to a HUMAN understanding of morality.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So non-believers are non-entities. Why does it not surprise me that an intolerant and insecure religious bigot such as yourself would think that way.

Nope. Very sorry that you have such a hyperbolic, overblown, way-too-*******-sensitive view of everything you read. What I actually said is that non-believers who feel the need to preach their non-belief and hatred of believers are non-entities TO ME. How you are viewed by others and by yourself is equally unimportant to me.

Which begs the question, what did I say that made me think your insults would cut me to the quick? Oh, lawks! Someone who doesn't matter to me thinks I'm intolerant! However shall I survive?! Quick! Someone explain to me how I can win the approval of . . . uh . . . who the **** were you again?

Pure projection on your part. I was not insulting you, I was merely making an observation. I wouldn't bother wasting second of my time attempting to "cut you to the quick". Just being you must be misery enough.

Yes, no insult THERE. And CERTAINLY no belief that your bad opinions would upset me. That's why you felt compelled to include yet ANOTHER insult: because you OBVIOUSLY don't believe for a second that your good graces are desperately desired.

So you're not only conceited, you're a liar. Big shock. FLUSH!

 

[Anguille]

Nope. Very sorry that you have such a hyperbolic, overblown, way-too-*******-sensitive view of everything you read. What I actually said is that non-believers who feel the need to preach their non-belief and hatred of believers are non-entities TO ME. How you are viewed by others and by yourself is equally unimportant to me.

Which begs the question, what did I say that made me think your insults would cut me to the quick? Oh, lawks! Someone who doesn't matter to me thinks I'm intolerant! However shall I survive?! Quick! Someone explain to me how I can win the approval of . . . uh . . . who the **** were you again?

Pure projection on your part. I was not insulting you, I was merely making an observation. I wouldn't bother wasting second of my time attempting to "cut you to the quick". Just being you must be misery enough.

Yes, no insult THERE. And CERTAINLY no belief that your bad opinions would upset me. That's why you felt compelled to include yet ANOTHER insult: because you OBVIOUSLY don't believe for a second that your good graces are desperately desired.

So you're not only conceited, you're a liar. Big shock. FLUSH!

 

[Hawkins]

By the way, I don't belong to any organized religion but I singled out Christians because I have been treated to their irrationality somewhat more often. No Muslim or Jew or Buddist, etc. has ever prosletized to me.

Somehow it works like this. If you break the Law, you'll be sentenced, whether you understand Law or not, whether you read it or not, whether you ever study law itself or not. That's the case.

Similarly God's Law is embedded in your heart and soul. If you offended His Law, you'll be judged and put to jail. If you sinned you'll be driven out of His kingdom, the same as how Adam sinned and being driven out of Eden, and same as how Lucifer the archangel sinned and being driven out of heaven.

God is to save souls instead of bodies here on earth. Here on earth humans are basically not in His Kingdom. That's why the myseries. And everyone requires to pass the final judgment in order to return to God and His kingdom in heaven. And God foresaw that you won't stand a chance in the judgment. Jesus Christ is thus sent and a new covenant is in place which allows you to escape from the Judgment by Law.

If you refuse to take the new covenant, and when you are judged to be sinful, a permanent separation from God will be called. It is said that His sheep will take the new covenant. It is also said that those who aren't His sheep will continue to sin against His Law without repentance.

Moreover, it is said in the Book of Revelation that Satan (who is said to be an ex-archangel) is an accuser accussing people of sinning in order to keep them in jail with him. So good luck, either to find yourself a good lawyer or prepare yourself for the defense.

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down."

Alternatively, take the Second Covenant as a gift such that the final Judgment by Law can be avoided.

 

[Father Time]

I know what I would say...


"god...you are a jerk!

punishing people for such petty offenses is sick

NOBODY deserves to burn in hell forever simply for having sex outside of marriage
or getting divorced
or being gay
or for just not believing in you

plenty of DECENT and GOOD and HONORABLE people indulge in these acts andthey do NOT deserve to be punished for all eternity...

god
you are a sick bastard
and you should seek help

and
one last thing
you are completely wrong about slavery

slavery is NOT acceptable!

slavery is BAD!

now...go to your room and think about what you've done

and I don't want you to come out until you are ready to apoligize to ALL of mankind"

I find it mildly amusing that you presume to tell an all powerful being what is right and what is wrong rather than to learn directly from Him. You have an incorrect understanding of God and yet somehow it's His fault.

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people have the hubris to try to hold God to a HUMAN understanding of morality.

Which is just another version of the old "the lord works in mysterious ways" cop-out.

 

[Father Time]

I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds, and taught such things as how to read. When the folks were gone, I was raised in a Catholic orphanage. All religion, all the time, 24/7. I said the rosary every night and went to Confession every Saturday. I had Religious Instruction every day at school. So why didn't it stick?

The first thing I objected to was this need some folks seemed to have to have their asses kissed because they were Clergy. It didn't help that they were, almost to a person, sadistic, uncaring, evil fuckwhits. Ass kissing has just never been part of my skill set. I had a checkmark for "fails to show proper respect to Clergy" on my report card even single time for a decade -- and every time I would think "seems like the proper amount of respect to me -- ZERO."

So in no special order of importance, here's a list of the reasons I am not a Christian. I am hoping someone who is can address any of them and we can dialogue.

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

3. I don't get what the Holy Spirit is about. A Supreme Being that seems not to have existed before God wanted to knock Mary up and now has no purpose at all.

4. The notion of a Trinity seems to contradict the first of the Ten Commandments: monotheism. If there is only one God, there cannot be three. It just isn't rational.

5. Speaking of rational, thanks for the condemnation of abortion, birth control, sex for Clergy (that paid off so well, didn't it?), people who are not Catholic (or whatever flavor you may be), etc. A special thanks to the "Creationism" nutters who've brought a new age of enlightenment into the classroom.

6. How is it "Christian" to deny food or medical care to a child if their parents won't first agree to convert to your religion? If your religion is so great, won't the people whom you serve eventually get curious about it? Why's it okay to coerce people into relinquishing their culture and their beliefs in favor of yours because you have the economic upper hand?

7. If prayer actually works, and God actually listens, isn't it evil to pray for the defeat of a high school football team or the results of a test? Doesn't God expect that you'll only pray for stuff that brings you closer to him?

8. How is it possible to reconcile, in your own mind, all the hatred and aggression undertaken in the name of religion with any message of any major religion? You know that it is wrong. How is it okay to commit Major Evil as long as you invoke God's name?

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

By the way, I don't belong to any organized religion but I singled out Christians because I have been treated to their irrationality somewhat more often. No Muslim or Jew or Buddist, etc. has ever prosletized to me.

I'm not christian because I would NOT join any club that would have glenn beck
or rush limbaugh
or pat robertson
or ann coulter

as a member

No one can stop them from being Christian though.

 

[Father Time]

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

If God is omnipotent, and the sole creator, then evil comes from him (as does everything), and thus he is both good and evil.

Why would an omnipotent God need to fight anyone, let alone a devil, save for amusement?


The Jewish Scholar Maimonides celebrated the execution of Jesus, declaring Jesus to be the great deceiver mentioned in Daniel's apocalypse. Given how Christians have tormented Jews over the past 2000 years, I cannot blame him.


The Holy Spirit allows old men to claim divine right without evidence.


It is also considered the reason why God gave us the Koran...to put down the heresy of pseudo-polytheism once and for all.


It makes sense, if you understand that for 2000 years, the religion was developed by emperors, kings, and their supporters.


Why do you think 2 billion people are Christian? It is not because their ancestors spontaneously saw the light and abandoned their native beliefs...

For instance, Portugal would only sell firearms to Japanese Daimyo (lords) who converted to Christianity. Eight-six such Daimyos converted, just to purchase firearms. The hated Oda Nobunaga used these guns to unite feudal Japan, and protected the missionaries until his assassination.


Prayer is about as effective as "the power of positive thinking."


For millions of people across history, violence in the name of God was clearly right...and a guaranteed ticket to heaven. In the context of religion, even suicide bombing is perfectly rational.


From a practical perspective, the red jump suit is social conditioning. Tis no different from believing in karma.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

A conscience is a product of social conditioning, hence the role for religion.

If we were both raised in 13th-century Mongolia, for instance, our conscience would be telling us to loot and pillage for the benefit of our tribe.

---

I suggest you read [ame=http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807]Amazon.com: God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything (9780446579803):…[/ame] for an alternative perspective.

There is no fanatic so zealous in evangelizing as an atheist with an axe to grind. God forbid they ever just shrug and say, "To each his own" about the belief choices of others.

I take it you haven't met Founder yet.

 

[Father Time]

Because like I said, there is no fanatic so zealous about evangelizing as an atheist with an axe to grind. And for some odd reason, they always assume the rest of us are deeply concerned with and fascinated by their beliefs. It never seems to cross their minds that they could possibly be complete non-entities to others.

So non-believers are non-entities. Why does it not surprise me that an intolerant and insecure religious bigot such as yourself would think that way.

Nope. Very sorry that you have such a hyperbolic, overblown, way-too-*******-sensitive view of everything you read.

Oh the irony.

 

[Avatar4321]

I find it mildly amusing that you presume to tell an all powerful being what is right and what is wrong rather than to learn directly from Him. You have an incorrect understanding of God and yet somehow it's His fault.

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people have the hubris to try to hold God to a HUMAN understanding of morality.

Which is just another version of the old "the lord works in mysterious ways" cop-out.

Nope. It's more of an acknowledgement that many people are just too arrogant to honestly search for the truth.

 

[Father Time]

I've always found it mildly amusing myself when people have the hubris to try to hold God to a HUMAN understanding of morality.

Which is just another version of the old "the lord works in mysterious ways" cop-out.

Nope. It's more of an acknowledgement that many people are just too arrogant to honestly search for the truth.

I say the notion that God can't be held up to any sort of basic standards of morality is being really dishonest.

"You can't question anything he does, because he's God."

It's a cop-out.

 

[Madeline]

Cecille apparently has too much anger to read this thread closely. I am NOT an atheist; I have no doubt at all that God exists. I also do not shove my beliefs at anyone else. I began the thread because I was raised in a hyper-christian environment and the training never took. I've obviously given a great deal of thought as to why, and wanted to dialogue about this.

I appreciate Cecille's POV and willingness to be honest about her anger, but it would be helpful to know why. What is it about non-christians that causes this rage? She is certainly not alone in feeling it.

We are so unaccepting of non-christians in this country that I doubt any Presidential candidate would be viable if he were agnostic or atheist. IMO, Lieberman will never take the office because he is not christian, regardless of how devote he is as a Jew.

Why do so many christians share this inability to tolerate the beliefs of others? Are they unable to sustain their faith if even one of us does not share it? There seems to me to be nothing analogous in the adherents of any other mainstream American organized religion, and I have never seen this religious intolerance in America anywhere among agnostics and atheists, unless you count Madeline Murray O'Hare. But in real life? No.

It seems inconsistent to me to claim to be a follower of the teachings of Christ and yet rage at and discriminate against those who are not.

 

[Madeline]

By the way, I don't belong to any organized religion but I singled out Christians because I have been treated to their irrationality somewhat more often. No Muslim or Jew or Buddist, etc. has ever prosletized to me.

Somehow it works like this. If you break the Law, you'll be sentenced, whether you understand Law or not, whether you read it or not, whether you ever study law itself or not. That's the case.

Similarly God's Law is embedded in your heart and soul. If you offended His Law, you'll be judged and put to jail. If you sinned you'll be driven out of His kingdom, the same as how Adam sinned and being driven out of Eden, and same as how Lucifer the archangel sinned and being driven out of heaven.

God is to save souls instead of bodies here on earth. Here on earth humans are basically not in His Kingdom. That's why the myseries. And everyone requires to pass the final judgment in order to return to God and His kingdom in heaven. And God foresaw that you won't stand a chance in the judgment. Jesus Christ is thus sent and a new covenant is in place which allows you to escape from the Judgment by Law.

If you refuse to take the new covenant, and when you are judged to be sinful, a permanent separation from God will be called. It is said that His sheep will take the new covenant. It is also said that those who aren't His sheep will continue to sin against His Law without repentance.

Moreover, it is said in the Book of Revelation that Satan (who is said to be an ex-archangel) is an accuser accussing people of sinning in order to keep them in jail with him. So good luck, either to find yourself a good lawyer or prepare yourself for the defense.

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down."

Alternatively, take the Second Covenant as a gift such that the final Judgment by Law can be avoided.

This is such a series of irrational and inconsistent statements I don't know how anyone could write them with a straight face. You have managed to make God sound like some sort of sadistic lunatic, Hawkins. If you open your eyes and look around, I think you may get that God is clearly not the irrational, hysterical, envious and devious anti-human you assert.

But meanwhile, good luck unraveling this Rube Goldberg version of reality. If I were afflicted with it, I don't think I'd be able to ascertain the ethics of tying my shoes.

 

[Father Time]

So what I'm hearing here is - correct me if I'm wrong - "I'm not a Christian because some people who happened to be church officials ACTUALLY EXPECTED ME TO RESPECT AUTHORITY FIGURES!!" The horror of it all, being expected as a child to respect one's elders and those in authority over you. And, of course, that NEVER happens to children outside of a church environment. Certainly, secular schools don't ever expect kids to be respectful of authority.

So do you think people should be expected to respect others who are sadistic, uncaring, and evil, or are you purposely ignoring parts of her posts you don't like?

"Then, further, what I'm hearing is "I got answers to my questions, but I didn't like them, so that means THEY WEREN'T ANSWERS!!" Have I got that right?"
Where did she claim they weren't answers? All she said was that she didn't buy the answers. How is that hard to comprehend?

"Seems to me that the problem here is less that Christianity isn't measuring up than that Mad just has an attitude problem and expects the universe to adjust itself around her,"
Yes how dare she expect the universe and/or Christianity to make any sense. The nerve of some people.

 

[Father Time]

Cecille apparently has too much anger to read this thread closely. I am NOT an atheist; I have no doubt at all that God exists. I also do not shove my beliefs at anyone else. I began the thread because I was raised in a hyper-christian environment and the training never took. I've obviously given a great deal of thought as to why, and wanted to dialogue about this.

I appreciate Cecille's POV and willingness to be honest about her anger, but it would be helpful to know why.

Cec is the most hyper-sensitive elitist poster I've ever seen here. I don't think there's any rationale behind it.

Oh and one thing that ticks her off is non-Christians telling Christians how to be Christ-like.

Because apparently she can't wrap her head around the idea of a non-Christian understanding the Bible.

 

[Madeline]

Cecille seems to be demonstrating some of the qualities that drive many folks away from organized religion: dishonesty, intolerance, aggression and cruelty. I wonder which of Christ's teachings leads her to treat others in this manner?

Cecille's posts are an advertisement for christianity the way a BP gas station is an ad for the internal combustion engine.

 

[mudwhistle]

Which is just another version of the old "the lord works in mysterious ways" cop-out.

Nope. It's more of an acknowledgement that many people are just too arrogant to honestly search for the truth.

I say the notion that God can't be held up to any sort of basic standards of morality is being really dishonest.

"You can't question anything he does, because he's God."

It's a cop-out.

God doesn't do anything...anymore.

His last act was allowing his son to be beating nearly to death and murdered to save us.

His son and the Holy Spirit are up to bat.

By the way....for centuries nothing that happens here on Earth is the work of God.

Guess who has domain over the planet we live on now?