Why do you support Ukraine?

[SavannahMann]

How would you have felt if countries of the world supported Iraq when it was invaded by America in 2003? This is the situation at hand for the many people in Russia that support their country and who have their sons fighting in the war knowing that there are other countries of the world, who are sending money or weapons to Ukraine to be used against the Russians.

It is true that there are many problems in the world. And one can argue if we are looking at this from a moral perspective that there are even greater problems in other areas of the world compared to Ukraine. There’s warfare in Ethiopia, Yemen, Sudan. And for some years for every day women in Afghanistan have had to live as slaves you might even say the same thing for women in Iran.

You talk about a treaty with Ukraine. I’m sure that throughout history there have been treaties between two countries but then a third country invades one of those two countries and the world reacts to it. This is the situation at hand. We saw this when America invaded Iraq in 2003 some country supported the United States others did not. Now it seems that Russia today is not able to get the same type of support that America did. Although the neutrality of China and India is something to look at because there are billions of people in these two countries alone, and they are neutral toward the Russia Ukraine war.

there are countries of the world and various entities that felt that America has acted illegally in various militaristic affairs. So whatever point you bring up about a treaty can be debated.

Of course, you know that people can feel bad for Ukrainians, but also recognize the fact that some number of Ukrainians are actually pro- Russian. It’s a war where there’s good guys on both sides that’s the case in many wars of history.

Interesting comparison. Let’s look at the comparison for a moment. And we can expand upon it.

For Iraq the United States spent months earning and telling not only Iraq but the world we would invade. We made our case publicly. We didn’t pretend we wouldn’t go in and announce it after the fact. For months we told everyone we would invade.

Russia denied it. They said the Western Nations were lying when they warned that Russia was getting ready to invade. Russia swore it wasn’t going to invade right up to an hour after the invasion had begun. Then Russia said they were conducting a limited military action for special security needs.

Russia lied about their intentions.

Let’s expand upon this. What shocked the world on December 7 1941 was the attack prior to the declaration of war. We know the history. The declaration was delayed by the Embassy. If there was ever any intention to deliver it before the attack. Thirty minutes isn’t much warning after all.

The World was outraged. That just wasn’t how things were done.

Today the World is angry at Russia. And Russia like Japan in 1941 has done it to themselves. Russia decided to lie. They lied. And they denounced those who warned it was coming.

Now which course of action is more honorable? America was wrong about the existence of WMD’s. The evidence seemed to indicate it. But they were wrong. However even the most America Hating shill for Russia would have to admit that America told the truth about their intentions. While Russia lied and then kept lying through to today about why they invaded.

So your comparison is interesting as it makes Russia look even worse.

 

[Stann]

Like in the other thread, brother, there’s no need to make things upabout other posters. Like you did with the Black Lives Matter topics you’re doing that in this thread. I don’t think there’s one Putin supporter in this thread.

When we look at the Russian invasion of Ukraine compared to the American invasion of Iraq, there are quite a few differences. But we can bring up some interesting points.

There’s a major point that is being overlooked especially by liberals. Why wasn’t Iraq armed by the international world when American invaded Iraq in 2003? Does it have anything to do with the Iraqis being Arab people being mostly Muslim perhaps?

Ukraine is a light authoritarian country. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see tons of statues of Zelensky all over the place in western Ukraine soon. We can also point out that Russia, nor China, nor anybody in the international world gave Iraq support in 2003. Even though people could argue that even though Saddam Hussein was authoritarian, it was the Arab people that deserve the worlds sympathy. . The Iraqi people whose homes were invaded by Americans. So that is why when you hear this moral argument by the western media about how the Ukrainian people deserve our support and money….. it only begs the question where was that media talking about the Iraqi people in 2003? Because they weren’t they were fully behind the American war effort at least initially.

And by the way I disagreed with the invasion of Iraq as well, but once it occurred I stood behind the US military and our president.

Are you a Saddam Hussein supporter if you disagreed with America’s invasion of Iraq? This is said because people can disagree with Ukraine and their government and not be a Russia or putin supporter.

One of the problems is those who say Russia is evil. That’s not appropriate, considering that throughout history so many countries have engaged in wars.

Countries throughout history have made the decision to go on a militaristic affair whether it’s an invasion or a security mission. You can recall the United States war on terrorism, which other people of the world other countries the world says is illegal. Russia says it is in Ukraine to denazify and demilitarize ukraine … but one difference in this war is that there are more of a percentage of Ukrainians that are willing to fight for Russia, more so than the amount of Iraqis that were willing to fight with for America. Think that’s only common sense. Ukraine is on the border of Russia and was a part of the Soviet Union for decades. Of course Iraq is thousands of miles away from America and while there was a huge percentage of Iraqis who were Christian something like 90% of the country was Muslim in 2003. Today most of Ukraine and most of Russia is the same orthodox Christian religion. So there’s differences in these two wars but there might be some similarities to your points.

I believe it was misguided for us to invade Iraq back then, and today, even more so, it was misguided for Russia to invade The Ukraine. And it was definitely misguided for Russia and the US to invade Afghanistan at different times in the past.

 

[Stann]

As far as treaty promises go....we enter into treaties when it's in our best interests to do so. And if we falter on keeping our promises then it's much more difficult to get anymore and our current alliances become into doubt. We pressured Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons and arms. That's the whole reason why Russia has invaded....because of the profit. They played a long game of taking their resources. And they thought it would work. They didn't have a Proliferation of any sort of defensive weaponry right down to the civillian level. And it's paid off for Russia in spades....up to a point.

The world needs Russia intact as a nation. But it is on the verge of not being one anymore. It is not going to get away with annexing Ukraine. The WHOLE WORLD won't let it happen.

Far worse things have happened in history. That being said, now that Russia has made such terrible choices, I believe the further breakup of Russia is already begining. We just don't know it yet and they don't either. Russians are begining to fight back against their corrupt government, this will end up in a civil war of a type. The Oligarchy is dead.

 

[22lcidw]

Far worse things have happened in history. That being said, now that Russia has made such terrible choices, I believe the further breakup of Russia is already begining. We just don't know it yet and they don't either. Russians are begining to fight back against their corrupt government, this will end up in a civil war of a type. The Oligarchy is dead.

Far worse things have happened in history. That being said, now that Russia has made such terrible choices, I believe the further breakup of Russia is already begining. We just don't know it yet and they don't either. Russians are begining to fight back against their corrupt government, this will end up in a civil war of a type. The Oligarchy is dead.

In what world would the West worry about a nation like Ukraine having a skirmish with Russia? Ukraine having no connection to Western Europe and a relationship with Russia for a long time. The West caused what Russia became a century ago.

 

[Stann]

In what world would the West worry about a nation like Ukraine having a skirmish with Russia? Ukraine having no connection to Western Europe and a relationship with Russia for a long time. The West caused what Russia became a century ago.

Ridiculous, Russia just took a different, the one less traveled. Actually not a bad idea, just bad implementation and priorities. Did the West also cause Hitler's rise and WWII ? It takes two to tango. Ultimately individual nations are responsible for their own actions.

 

[JohnDB]

Far worse things have happened in history. That being said, now that Russia has made such terrible choices, I believe the further breakup of Russia is already begining. We just don't know it yet and they don't either. Russians are begining to fight back against their corrupt government, this will end up in a civil war of a type. The Oligarchy is dead.

From what I've seen the Oligarchy is transforming into feifdoms. Each one forming its own state with PMCs as their individual military/police force.

And that's going to be problematic in the future. I much prefer for Russia to not break up. But now the whole world will have to suffer the consequences of it being broken up.

 

[JohnDB]

In what world would the West worry about a nation like Ukraine having a skirmish with Russia? Ukraine having no connection to Western Europe and a relationship with Russia for a long time. The West caused what Russia became a century ago.

The ONLY thing that the West did was use Russia's own vices against themselves. Russia did everything to itself all by itself.

Just like it's doing now.

As those coffins keep coming home and more "mobilizations" keep coming for an objective that most Russian citizens really don't understand or believe if they do....it's going to become more and more difficult for Putin to stay in office.

He is looking at a vote of "no confidence" very soon....and if Putin doesn't recognize it he is an idiot...and I don't think Putin is an idiot.

 

[Stann]

From what I've seen the Oligarchy is transforming into feifdoms. Each one forming its own state with PMCs as their individual military/police force.

And that's going to be problematic in the future. I much prefer for Russia to not break up. But now the whole world will have to suffer the consequences of it being broken up.

I understand we're suppose to be civilized but we're just one step removed from.the cave dwellers. Such is life we chose to live in this physical world.

 

[Stann]

From what I've seen the Oligarchy is transforming into feifdoms. Each one forming its own state with PMCs as their individual military/police force.

And that's going to be problematic in the future. I much prefer for Russia to not break up. But now the whole world will have to suffer the consequences of it being broken up.

Another scenario, the rise of the " new axis powers " ; Iran, North Korea, China and Russia, just with a lot more smaller Russian state players.The old Russian proverb says it well, " Pray to GOD but row for shore. " Sinking ships get very desperate. China and Iran haven't hit their crisis yet. North Korea has been there for years and Russia is just begining to realize theirs. All things in this world end. And as we discuss them cancer continues to spread in America.

 

[JohnDB]

Another scenario, the rise of the " new axis powers " ; Iran, North Korea, China and Russia, just with a lot more smaller Russian state players.The old Russian proverb says it well, " Pray to GOD but row for shore. " Sinking ships get very desperate. China and Iran haven't hit their crisis yet. North Korea has been there for years and Russia is just begining to realize theirs. All things in this world end. And as we discuss them cancer continues to spread in America.

China is about to.
You have heard about all the fuss over how China wants Taiwan. It isn't just about the computer chip fabs either.

China has a huge problem with commercial paper (bonds) and a lack of cash. Especially now with the economy tanking severely and most goods got farmed out to everywhere but China.

When China took over Hong Kong they nationalized the banks two years ago to take their cash so they don't default on payments. They want to do the same thing with Taiwanese banks. (Multiple more times the cash) Then they also will have dominance over the Computer Chip manufacturing. They will set the price for the whole world. The vast majority of chips are made there....including memory chips. (Next generation memory is not made there....it's made here in the USA by Micron at a new plant opened during quarantines)
Intel does things differently so they don't use next generation memory chips....but everyone else does....including the new Iphones)

North Korea is nobody... no power, no money....just cannon fodder essentially.

The only other realistic bad kid is Iran. They are trying to produce nuclear weapons. Israel has been given a green light to fix the problem. Let's hope they do.

A war economy works for Russia...so long as the people are compliant the Government will stay afloat. The second they stop the war, its dead. Zero economy. Maybe a small one surrounding their dairy products and their petroleum but that's the end of it...They used to be capable of so much more....but with the recent "Brain Drain" they don't. They also do not have any drawing power to draw the brain power back....and the ire of most nations at the moment for giving up production facilities for pennies on the dollar.

 

[busybee01]

There’s many reasons why Americans and frankly people all over the world oppose funding Ukraine. One of them is because of Christianity …our Christian Brothers in Russia. The idea of funding Ukraine to kill Russian Christians. I’m not gonna be a part of that.

American exceptionalism. The idea that we can invade countries and use drones whenever we want in countries all around the world. That America can do military operations in allied countries like Pakistan whenever we want. But if some other country like Russia invades Ukraine we decide to take a “moral stand” that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and it is also against Christianity…

The people in this thread that support Ukraine and say Russia is evil are wrong. they rarely if it all talk about America’s involvement in wars or that the United States is the most militarized country in all of world history. Our military power and budget is way greater than that of even China and China is a country of over 1 billion people.

And I want the United States to remain the strongest country in the world with the strongest military. But let’s use our military members and military equipment for the right reasons and we have no right to be funding this Russia Ukraine conflict this is an Eastern European conflict. There’s no moral argument to support this war if it was about morals we will be helping out the people in Africa who are starving to death.

Although I voted for Donald Trump in 2020 and I would again in 2024, I don’t believe in “America first”. I believe that the United States should help to guide the world to be a better place. Now I certainly would say the hundred billion dollars we wrongfully have sent to Ukraine politicians(nobody knows where the money is going) should have been used to help the people of East Palestine it should be used to eliminate homelessness in America which can be done.….

Ukraine has corruption issues Ukraine has oligarchs just like Russia does. There’s a lot of similarities between Ukraine politics and Russian politics.

______Also Russia is rejecting a lot of this far left American politics where America expects the world to agree that men who dress like women should get women’s awards and take away rights from women. Russia does not agree with this and frankly that is honorable.



It comes down to ideology. There are Nazis in Ukraine there are white supremacists there and it’s really astonishing that the people in this thread who claim to be Democrats support Ukraine and say nothing about that even though vice news in the BBC western news outlets have shown us. They’ve shown the racism from Ukraine.

It seems that the last necessary war America fought in was World War II.

But I have always stood by the American military whether it be those who fought in Vietnam, Korea or the two gulf wars…. I stand by the office of the presidency. And that’s America for you that’s what freedom of speech means you can disagree with a war while still supporting the military and even the war effort. And certainly supporting the troops supporting American troops.

And of course there’s other reasons Americans are saying we should be out of this war …. it has been listed in this thread and others.

Christians don't invade other countries. They don't commit atrocities. Putin is not a Christian.

Putin is evil. He has made it clear that he wants to rebuild the old Soviet Union. That would mean a general war between NATO and Russia. Finland and Sweden are concerned enough to wat to join NATO. They have preferred to remain neutral.

Most of that money has been in military gear not cash. You are a liar. You are aware of the fact that Republicans are blocking attempts to fix what caused the crash in East Palestine. The Republican senator is begging his Republican colleagues to support strengthening regulations. It is Republicans who want to cut safety net programs.

There is absolutely no evidence of Ukrainian corruption.

Just because Putin agrees with you on social issues, it is okay for him to jail or kill his political opponents. To commit atrocities in Ukraine. Why don't you move to Russia if you think it is so great. You are a animal and a brute.

The only Nazis are Trump and his supporters like you. There is no proof of that. This is a necessary war. If we back down, Russia will take Ukraine and keep going. China will be emboldened to invade Taiwan. You are the one who wants to start WWIII.

 

[busybee01]

we are only spending money in Ukraine so a large part of it can come back to the Biden family in the form of bribes.

A fish is smarter than you are. You are a typical Putin puppet.

 

[busybee01]

Europeans might all be speaking German but the USA would exist. your exaggerations are foolish. Why do you want another Viet Nam in Ukraine? That is what most of DC seems to want, why is that? Could it be that they are all on the payroll of the weapons industry?

Could you be on Putin's payroll. This is not Vietnam. Another lie.

 

[busybee01]

What is the US interest there? except to keep the bribe payments coming to the Biden family.

The US interest is very clear to someone who does not support Putin. Putin has made it clear that he wants to re-establish the old Soviet Union. That would involve a war between NATO and Russia. Right now Putin is getting chewed up in Ukraine. It would also embolden China to attack Taiwan. Those are clear American interests.

 

[busybee01]

The Ukraine is NOT just a corrupt place, that has been stealing Russian oil, murdering ethnic Russians, trying to join NATO, etc., but the Ukraine historically was the almost always historically part of Russia and Kyiv used to be the capital of Russia until the Mongol invasion.
There is no country, culture, history, etc. that is known as the Ukraine.
The Ukraine is known instead ONLY as the disputed borderlands between Poland and Russia.
All the people there are either Polish or Russian.
There is no such thing as a Ukrainian.
And since the ethnic Polish and ethnic Russians do not at all get along, they should not be forced into the same country.

You are nothing but a lying Putin weasel. Ukraine has not been a part of Russia. Go back to your master Putin.

 

[Redfish]

Could you be on Putin's payroll. This is not Vietnam. Another lie.

what is our national interest in Ukraine that justifies putting american soldiers at risk of being killed? What is our national interest that justifies sending them billions of our tax dollars

 

[Redfish]

You are nothing but a lying Putin weasel. Ukraine has not been a part of Russia. Go back to your ma

The US interest is very clear to someone who does not support Putin. Putin has made it clear that he wants to re-establish the old Soviet Union. That would involve a war between NATO and Russia. Right now Putin is getting chewed up in Ukraine. It would also embolden China to attack Taiwan. Those are clear American interests.

bullshit, China is threatening Taiwan because the USA has a weak senile old fool for president.

 

[Redfish]

You are nothing but a lying Putin weasel. Ukraine has not been a part of Russia. Go back to your master Putin.

it was part of the ussr for decades, putin is trying to reconstitute the ussr, so fricken what? we have no business spending billions to help corrupt ukraine stay out of russia. many in ukraine would willingly rejoin russia or ussr.

 

[Lesh]

it was part of the ussr for decades, putin is trying to reconstitute the ussr, so fricken what? we have no business spending billions to help corrupt ukraine stay out of russia. many in ukraine would willingly rejoin russia or ussr.

You think it’s in our ( that of the US… not sure where you are from) interest to have The USSR reconstituted?

Are you that stupid?

 

[PeterPilot]

Interesting comparison. Let’s look at the comparison for a moment. And we can expand upon it.

For Iraq the United States spent months earning and telling not only Iraq but the world we would invade. We made our case publicly. We didn’t pretend we wouldn’t go in and announce it after the fact. For months we told everyone we would invade.

Russia denied it. They said the Western Nations were lying when they warned that Russia was getting ready to invade. Russia swore it wasn’t going to invade right up to an hour after the invasion had begun. Then Russia said they were conducting a limited military action for special security needs.

Russia lied about their intentions.

Let’s expand upon this. What shocked the world on December 7 1941 was the attack prior to the declaration of war. We know the history. The declaration was delayed by the Embassy. If there was ever any intention to deliver it before the attack. Thirty minutes isn’t much warning after all.

The World was outraged. That just wasn’t how things were done.

Today the World is angry at Russia. And Russia like Japan in 1941 has done it to themselves. Russia decided to lie. They lied. And they denounced those who warned it was coming.

Now which course of action is more honorable? America was wrong about the existence of WMD’s. The evidence seemed to indicate it. But they were wrong. However even the most America Hating shill for Russia would have to admit that America told the truth about their intentions. While Russia lied and then kept lying through to today about why they invaded.

So your comparison is interesting as it makes Russia look even worse.

Wow, have you been thoroughly indoctrinated! You could take the place of Jen Psaki and Karine Jean-Pierre