Why Do You Love The Communists?

[2aguy]

And Friedrich Hayek...alive at the rise of the national socialists in Germany....


Nazism is Socialism

It would, indeed, hardly have been possible for the Nationalists to advance fundamental objections to the economic policy of the other socialist parties when their own published programme differed from these only in that its socialism was much cruder and less rational. The famous 25 points drawn up by Herr Feder, one of Hitler's early allies, repeatedly endorsed by Hitler and recognized by the by-laws of the National-Socialist party as the immutable basis of all its actions, which together with an extensive commentary is circulating throughout Germany in many hundreds of thousands of copies, is full of ideas resembling those of the early socialists.

But the dominant feature is a fierce hatred of anything capitalistic-individualistic profit seeking, large scale enterprise, banks, joint-stock companies, department stores, "international finance and loan capital," the system of "interest slavery" in general; the abolition of these is described as the "basis of the programme, around which everything else turns." It was to this programme that the masses of the German people, who were already completely under the influence of collectivist ideas, responded so enthusiastically.

That this violent anti-capitalistic attack is genuine, and not a mere piece of propaganda, becomes as clear from the personal history of the intellectual leaders of the movement as from the general milieu from which it springs. It is not even denied that many of the young men who today play a prominent part in it have previously been communists or socialists.

The nazis were not free market capitalists....

 

[Wry Catcher]

That question for you Liberals.
Yeah, you do. You accept them the way you'd accept a goofy uncle, y'know.....'a little strange but not a bad guy.'

OK...I understand why you hate, abhor the Nazis.

I know what they did....I see the Nazi villains in the movies....I recognize the references to 'grammar Nazi.' That makes sense.
But the fact that the same visceral hatred is not assigned to communists....the shrug, the sophisticated chuckle/sneer at those persistent anti-communists...
.....is the proof that you have been indoctrinated, brain-washed, manipulated.


Because the communists were far worse, and for far longer.





Yes...I'll prove it to you. First...let's fill in your history lacunae...

1. Remember that communism, Karl Marx, goes back to mid19th century....and took over Russia early in the 20 century. Not long after, it had cells and well organized branches in almost every western nation. From the start, they knew the value of psychological indoctrinations.


2. In the early years after the Bolshevik Revolution, the communists used manipulations, such as the Potemkin Villages, to persuade the world how admirable and successful the revolution had been. One technique was to invite prominent American and British leftists to take carefully planned tours. And these ‘Potemkin Progressives,’ for the most part, behaved and thought just as they were meant to.

a. Lenin, and then Stalin, carefully arranged the tours so that these progressives would then go back to their countries and praise Soviet Russia, so that the citizens would demand that Russia be recognized....'worker's paradise' and all.

H.G. Wells met with Stalin in 1934, and wrote “I’ve never met a man more candid, fair and honest!” and “…everyone trusts him!’ And of Lenin, “…frank, refreshing, and an amazing little man!’

George Bernard Shaw met with Stalin, as well. He returned, and wrote, “ We cannot afford to give ourselves moral airs when our most enterprising neighbors, the Soviet Union, humanely and judiciously liquidates a handful of exploiters and speculators to make the world safe for honest men.” He parroted the exact line that Stalin had given him!

And, of course, John Dewey.
See "Dupes," by Paul Kengor



When he returned from the Soviet Union, Shaw backed up ever lie that Walter Duranty reported. He testified that there was not, and never could be, a food shortage in the USSR.
Paul Hollander, “Political Pilgrims,” p.119


None of this was taught to you in government schools....was it?

In the public schools I attended (your use of "government schools" is known as a Dysphemism - also a word I learned in a public school) we were assigned Darkness at Noon. I also read The God that Failed in public school as well as the Communist Manifesto and Lenin's State and Revolution and dozens of other essays written by political economists.

Paul Hollander - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

New heard of him till now. Very brief bio in link attached.

 

[hipeter924]

Fascism is not socialism. Even Mussolini said that. Fascisim is a right wing progressive nationalist program. That sounds just like our far right that wants to use big government to suppress their cultural opponents.

You can you opinion but not your own facts.

Mussolini was a communist before they kicked him out and he started his own brand of socialism......all the other crap is just cosmetic....it is socialism...that is the truth......you guys are fools who don't look at what actually happened..........

You are babbling. You ignored Ford and Lindbergh. Mussolini said himself fascism is not socialism. It is far right wing progressive nationalist statism.

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

Mussolini said fascism is a fusion of state and corporate power, so the more money and influence given to corporations over the American people - the more fascist America becomes.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And Friedrich Hayek...alive at the rise of the national socialists in Germany....


Nazism is Socialism

It would, indeed, hardly have been possible for the Nationalists to advance fundamental objections to the economic policy of the other socialist parties when their own published programme differed from these only in that its socialism was much cruder and less rational. The famous 25 points drawn up by Herr Feder, one of Hitler's early allies, repeatedly endorsed by Hitler and recognized by the by-laws of the National-Socialist party as the immutable basis of all its actions, which together with an extensive commentary is circulating throughout Germany in many hundreds of thousands of copies, is full of ideas resembling those of the early socialists.

But the dominant feature is a fierce hatred of anything capitalistic-individualistic profit seeking, large scale enterprise, banks, joint-stock companies, department stores, "international finance and loan capital," the system of "interest slavery" in general; the abolition of these is described as the "basis of the programme, around which everything else turns." It was to this programme that the masses of the German people, who were already completely under the influence of collectivist ideas, responded so enthusiastically.

That this violent anti-capitalistic attack is genuine, and not a mere piece of propaganda, becomes as clear from the personal history of the intellectual leaders of the movement as from the general milieu from which it springs. It is not even denied that many of the young men who today play a prominent part in it have previously been communists or socialists.

The nazis were not free market capitalists....

Neither does America. America is a social market democracy, increasingly so since 1900. Get over it, guys. You cannot have your own facts.

 

[2aguy]

von Mises? Oh my.

British Dictionary definitions for fascism
/ˈfæʃɪzəm/
noun (sometimes capital)
1.
any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism,such as German National Socialism; any right-wingnationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian andhierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed todemocracy and liberalism
2.
any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, thatmay be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist,authoritarian, etc
3.
prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism

Wow....fascism is right wing because it is right wing......wow......that definition is not a definition..it is the same mess that my history Professor tried to explain but failed at because they had to say fascism wasn't socialism...but couldn't explain how it wasn't socialism other than to say "Well...it is right wing....so it is right wing fascism..."

Fascism and communism are two types of socialism.......

hat this violent anti-capitalistic attack is genuine, and not a mere piece of propaganda, becomes as clear from the personal history of the intellectual leaders of the movement as from the general milieu from which it springs. It is not even denied that many of the young men who today play a prominent part in it have previously been communists or socialists.

 

[BluesLegend]

Why is this opinion thread in the Politics sub-forum???

You spelled 'troll' wrong.

PC has special privileges. She's protected under the USMB posters with Disabilities Act.

We liberals don't love communism. We love social democracy, and sad day for you PC, we are winning the battle to establish that as the norm in the civilized world.

yep, she gets the tinfoiler handicap

Ironic for PoliticalSpice that the Germans practice Democratic Socialism and do quite well too.

Riiiight socialism is awesome in Germany, you earn an advanced degree in college then the government takes 70% of your money and you get to live your life in an apartment.

 

[2aguy]

And the socialist mussolini......

Fascism is Merely Heretical Communism Like Liberalism Conservative Colloquium

Benito Amilcare Andrea Mussolini, dictator of fascist Italy and conventionally labeled the father of fascism (the term “fascism” is Italian in origin), was a lifelong socialist and follower of Karl Marx. He was named after two socialists: Amilcare Cipriani and Andrea Costa. His father was a stalwart socialist who was a member of the First International and served on the local socialist council. His father read him passages from Das Kapital (I know that’s what I read when I want to put myself to sleep, haha). Benito started early in his socialist activism: he called himself a socialist while in high school and became the secretary of a socialist organization at Forli at the age of 18.

In his youth, he carried a medallion of Karl Marx. He also became close friends with Angelica Balabanoff, a longtime colleague of Lenin. In fact, Lenin and Mussolini were mutual admirers. Lenin wrote, “Mussolini? A great pity he is lost to us! He is a strong man, who would have led our party to victory.”


Mussolini seriously began his political career as a left-wing journalist and intellectual. He was very well read in socialist theory. He wrote countless socialist tracts and articles that both examined and translated socialist literature. In 1911, he became the editor of La lotta di classe (Class War), which served as a mouthpiece for the Italian Socialist Party. In 1912, he attended a Socialist congress.


Leading socialist Olindo Vernocchi said, “From today you, Benito, are not only the representative of the Romagna Socialists but the Duce of all revolutionary socialists in Italy.” This was how he received the nickname Il Duce, literally “the leader.” He was the Duce of Socialism!


Leda Rafanelli, an anarchist intellectual, wrote “Benito Mussolini…is the socialist of heroic times.”


Mussolini joined the formal leadership of the Italian Socialist Party and became editor of its paper called Avanti! , which would become socialist gospel for a whole generation of socialists. Lenin would comment approvingly of Mussolini’s efforts in Pravda.


Mussolini’s break with strict, dogmatic socialism would begin with the outbreak of World War I. His support of the war contravened the principle of international solidarity and the elimination of national borders (nationality itself to be precise). He saw it as a practical necessity, but he received a backlash from hardline believers. He responded, “You hate me today because you love me still. Whatever happens, you won’t lose me. Twelve years of my life in the party ought to be sufficient guarantee of my socialist faith. Socialism is in my blood.” Again, he countered, “You think you can turn me out, but you will find I shall come back again. I am and shall remain a socialist and my convictions will never change! They are bred into my very bones.”


Mussolini did not move to the right or radically change his political philosophy. He merely rejected one tenet of orthodox Marxism: class must come before nationality or any other group identity. “I saw that internationalism was crumbling,” Mussolini later observed. “The sentiment of nationality exists and cannot be denied.” He thought it was “utterly foolish” to believe that class consciousness could trump national loyalties and culture.

Thus was born national socialism, a modification from traditional socialism only in the sense that it was less ambitious in scope and recognized that the natural power of nationalism could be harnessed as a means to socialist ends.

Thus Mussolini said that its was “necessary to assassinate the Party in order to save Socialism.” It was this little heresy that would divide Europe’s socialists. And the Italian people would choose national socialism (fascism) over international socialists and communists.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Guys, America and Europe live in a social market democracy. That is not going to change.

2aguy is using conservativecolloquium, a source as free market as one can get. Nope, we are not going back to pre1900.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why is this opinion thread in the Politics sub-forum???

You spelled 'troll' wrong.

PC has special privileges. She's protected under the USMB posters with Disabilities Act.

We liberals don't love communism. We love social democracy, and sad day for you PC, we are winning the battle to establish that as the norm in the civilized world.

yep, she gets the tinfoiler handicap

Ironic for PoliticalSpice that the Germans practice Democratic Socialism and do quite well too.

PC hates communist America so much that she would leave in a heartbeat...

...if it didn't mean losing her rent controlled apartment in NYC.

 

[Dot Com]

Why is this opinion thread in the Politics sub-forum???

You spelled 'troll' wrong.

PC has special privileges. She's protected under the USMB posters with Disabilities Act.

We liberals don't love communism. We love social democracy, and sad day for you PC, we are winning the battle to establish that as the norm in the civilized world.

yep, she gets the tinfoiler handicap

Ironic for PoliticalSpice that the Germans practice Democratic Socialism and do quite well too.

PC hates communist America so much that she would leave in a heartbeat...

...if it didn't mean losing her rent controlled apartment in NYC.

Ironic for PoliSpice I know

 

[JakeStarkey]

PC is inconsistent, yes.

 

[hipeter924]

See how you don't understand, bear?

There is no correlation between Reagan and Obama. And if Obama had done it, you would have been all over him.

See how that works, bear?

View attachment 42115

You do know that he was right...right? everyone he went after was a communist...right?

McCarthy didn't run the Anti-American Affairs Committee, but there is little evidence they found a single communist, let alone one that committed treason.

Rosenbergs were perhaps the only strike, and even then it isn't clear they were communists, and like the test of traitors during the period of the cold war they could have been motivated by greed (or in the Rosenberg's case wanting the Soviets to have the bomb too).

McCarthy met his end when he started going after Congressmen, as well as attacking the US military as being filled with 'communists'. That said, Democratic President Kennedy politically covered McCarthy's legacy - ironic since McCarthy probably viewed the Democrats as a communist infestation.

 

[hangover]

That question for you Liberals.
Yeah, you do. You accept them the way you'd accept a goofy uncle, y'know.....'a little strange but not a bad guy.'

OK...I understand why you hate, abhor the Nazis.

I know what they did....I see the Nazi villains in the movies....I recognize the references to 'grammar Nazi.' That makes sense.
But the fact that the same visceral hatred is not assigned to communists....the shrug, the sophisticated chuckle/sneer at those persistent anti-communists...
.....is the proof that you have been indoctrinated, brain-washed, manipulated.


Because the communists were far worse, and for far longer.





Yes...I'll prove it to you. First...let's fill in your history lacunae...

1. Remember that communism, Karl Marx, goes back to mid19th century....and took over Russia early in the 20 century. Not long after, it had cells and well organized branches in almost every western nation. From the start, they knew the value of psychological indoctrinations.


2. In the early years after the Bolshevik Revolution, the communists used manipulations, such as the Potemkin Villages, to persuade the world how admirable and successful the revolution had been. One technique was to invite prominent American and British leftists to take carefully planned tours. And these ‘Potemkin Progressives,’ for the most part, behaved and thought just as they were meant to.

a. Lenin, and then Stalin, carefully arranged the tours so that these progressives would then go back to their countries and praise Soviet Russia, so that the citizens would demand that Russia be recognized....'worker's paradise' and all.

H.G. Wells met with Stalin in 1934, and wrote “I’ve never met a man more candid, fair and honest!” and “…everyone trusts him!’ And of Lenin, “…frank, refreshing, and an amazing little man!’

George Bernard Shaw met with Stalin, as well. He returned, and wrote, “ We cannot afford to give ourselves moral airs when our most enterprising neighbors, the Soviet Union, humanely and judiciously liquidates a handful of exploiters and speculators to make the world safe for honest men.” He parroted the exact line that Stalin had given him!

And, of course, John Dewey.
See "Dupes," by Paul Kengor



When he returned from the Soviet Union, Shaw backed up ever lie that Walter Duranty reported. He testified that there was not, and never could be, a food shortage in the USSR.
Paul Hollander, “Political Pilgrims,” p.119


None of this was taught to you in government schools....was it?

You don't have a clue about communism. Communism doesn't have an authority government. There has never been a communist government in history.
But think about this....It was your con hero Nixon that got America involved with China.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That question for you Liberals.
Yeah, you do. You accept them the way you'd accept a goofy uncle, y'know.....'a little strange but not a bad guy.'

OK...I understand why you hate, abhor the Nazis.

I know what they did....I see the Nazi villains in the movies....I recognize the references to 'grammar Nazi.' That makes sense.
But the fact that the same visceral hatred is not assigned to communists....the shrug, the sophisticated chuckle/sneer at those persistent anti-communists...
.....is the proof that you have been indoctrinated, brain-washed, manipulated.


Because the communists were far worse, and for far longer.





Yes...I'll prove it to you. First...let's fill in your history lacunae...

1. Remember that communism, Karl Marx, goes back to mid19th century....and took over Russia early in the 20 century. Not long after, it had cells and well organized branches in almost every western nation. From the start, they knew the value of psychological indoctrinations.


2. In the early years after the Bolshevik Revolution, the communists used manipulations, such as the Potemkin Villages, to persuade the world how admirable and successful the revolution had been. One technique was to invite prominent American and British leftists to take carefully planned tours. And these ‘Potemkin Progressives,’ for the most part, behaved and thought just as they were meant to.

a. Lenin, and then Stalin, carefully arranged the tours so that these progressives would then go back to their countries and praise Soviet Russia, so that the citizens would demand that Russia be recognized....'worker's paradise' and all.

H.G. Wells met with Stalin in 1934, and wrote “I’ve never met a man more candid, fair and honest!” and “…everyone trusts him!’ And of Lenin, “…frank, refreshing, and an amazing little man!’

George Bernard Shaw met with Stalin, as well. He returned, and wrote, “ We cannot afford to give ourselves moral airs when our most enterprising neighbors, the Soviet Union, humanely and judiciously liquidates a handful of exploiters and speculators to make the world safe for honest men.” He parroted the exact line that Stalin had given him!

And, of course, John Dewey.
See "Dupes," by Paul Kengor



When he returned from the Soviet Union, Shaw backed up ever lie that Walter Duranty reported. He testified that there was not, and never could be, a food shortage in the USSR.
Paul Hollander, “Political Pilgrims,” p.119


None of this was taught to you in government schools....was it?

You don't have a clue about communism. Communism doesn't have an authority government. There has never been a communist government in history.
But think about this....It was your con hero Nixon that got America involved with China.

Oh, just shut up with your nonsense. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. The facts do not support your opinion.

 

[2aguy]

That question for you Liberals.
Yeah, you do. You accept them the way you'd accept a goofy uncle, y'know.....'a little strange but not a bad guy.'

OK...I understand why you hate, abhor the Nazis.

I know what they did....I see the Nazi villains in the movies....I recognize the references to 'grammar Nazi.' That makes sense.
But the fact that the same visceral hatred is not assigned to communists....the shrug, the sophisticated chuckle/sneer at those persistent anti-communists...
.....is the proof that you have been indoctrinated, brain-washed, manipulated.


Because the communists were far worse, and for far longer.





Yes...I'll prove it to you. First...let's fill in your history lacunae...

1. Remember that communism, Karl Marx, goes back to mid19th century....and took over Russia early in the 20 century. Not long after, it had cells and well organized branches in almost every western nation. From the start, they knew the value of psychological indoctrinations.


2. In the early years after the Bolshevik Revolution, the communists used manipulations, such as the Potemkin Villages, to persuade the world how admirable and successful the revolution had been. One technique was to invite prominent American and British leftists to take carefully planned tours. And these ‘Potemkin Progressives,’ for the most part, behaved and thought just as they were meant to.

a. Lenin, and then Stalin, carefully arranged the tours so that these progressives would then go back to their countries and praise Soviet Russia, so that the citizens would demand that Russia be recognized....'worker's paradise' and all.

H.G. Wells met with Stalin in 1934, and wrote “I’ve never met a man more candid, fair and honest!” and “…everyone trusts him!’ And of Lenin, “…frank, refreshing, and an amazing little man!’

George Bernard Shaw met with Stalin, as well. He returned, and wrote, “ We cannot afford to give ourselves moral airs when our most enterprising neighbors, the Soviet Union, humanely and judiciously liquidates a handful of exploiters and speculators to make the world safe for honest men.” He parroted the exact line that Stalin had given him!

And, of course, John Dewey.
See "Dupes," by Paul Kengor



When he returned from the Soviet Union, Shaw backed up ever lie that Walter Duranty reported. He testified that there was not, and never could be, a food shortage in the USSR.
Paul Hollander, “Political Pilgrims,” p.119


None of this was taught to you in government schools....was it?

You don't have a clue about communism. Communism doesn't have an authority government. There has never been a communist government in history.
But think about this....It was your con hero Nixon that got America involved with China.

Socialism is the last step before true communism....that is the doctrine......the socialists in charge never let go of their power...but they are still socialists...as were the German national socialists.....

 

[BluesLegend]

Why is this opinion thread in the Politics sub-forum???

You spelled 'troll' wrong.

PC has special privileges. She's protected under the USMB posters with Disabilities Act.

We liberals don't love communism. We love social democracy, and sad day for you PC, we are winning the battle to establish that as the norm in the civilized world.

yep, she gets the tinfoiler handicap

Ironic for PoliticalSpice that the Germans practice Democratic Socialism and do quite well too.

PC hates communist America so much that she would leave in a heartbeat...

...if it didn't mean losing her rent controlled apartment in NYC.

If asshole liberals didn't pass sky high taxes maybe residents in NYC would have more money in their pockets.

 

[2aguy]

And another Ph.d on the fact that the natiaonal socialists were still socialists...

Richard Pipes - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Pipes taught at Harvard University from 1950 until his retirement in 1996. He was the director of Harvard's Russian Research Center from 1968 to 1973 and is now Baird Professor Emeritus of History at Harvard University. In 1962 he delivered a series of lectures on Russian intellectual history at Leningrad University. He acted as senior consultant at the Stanford Research Institute from 1973 to 1978. During the 1970s, he was an advisor to Washington Senator Henry M. Jackson. In 1981 and 1982 he served as a member of the National Security Council, holding the post of Director of East European and Soviet Affairs under President Ronald Reagan.[SUP][5][/SUP] Pipes was a member of the Committee on the Present Danger from 1977 until 1992 and belongs to the Council of Foreign Relations. In the 1970s, Pipes was a leading critic of détente, which he described as "inspired by intellectual indolence and based on ignorance of one's antagonist and therefore inherently inept".[SUP][6][/SUP]


http://www.fff.org/freedom/0999h.asp

Pipes concisely and impressively analyzes the differences and similarities in
20th-century Soviet communism, Italian fascism, and German national socialism.
All three systems shared a common hatred for classical liberalism and the
institution of private property. While the Soviets abolished private property
outright and imposed central planning, in fascist Italy and Nazi Germany most
property remained nominally in private hands but was completely controlled and
directed by government central command. His detailed summary of the Nazi
economic system clearly shows that (contrary to the Marxian claim) capitalism
was destroyed under national socialism.

 

[JakeStarkey]

2aguy, your definitions have been refuted.

The national socialists were far right wing fascist nationalist progressives.

You do understand progressivism has left and right wings, right? If you deny that, you can't be taken seriously.

 

[2aguy]

And here we have another Ph.d discussing the different types of socialism.....

Hitler Was A Socialist And Not A Right Wing Conservative DemocraticPeace Blog

Mussolini’s fascism was a state socialism that was explicitly anti-Marx and aggressively nationalistic. Hitler’s National Socialism was state socialism at its worse. It not only shared the socialism of fascism, but was explicitly racist. In this it differs from the state socialism of Burma today, and that of some African and Arab dictatorships.


Two prevailing historical myths that the left has propagated successfully is that Hitler was a far right wing conservative and was democratically elected in 1933 (a blow at bourgeois democracy and conservatives). Actually, he was defeated twice in the national elections (he became chancellor in a smoke-filled-room appointment by those German politicians who thought they could control him — see “What? Hitler Was Not Elected?”) and as head of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, he considered himself a socialist, and was one by the evidence of his writings and the his economic policies.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And here we have another Ph.d discussing the different types of socialism.....

Hitler Was A Socialist And Not A Right Wing Conservative DemocraticPeace Blog

Already refusted in principle. Any Mises suggestion is automatic hokum.