Why do the God-haters persist?

[Boss]

You once again neglected to append "because I say so" to your post.

Well no, sweetie, it's a matter of history, not because I say so.

Well, actually sweetie, separation of church and state is an established principle.

You always have the option of arming your religious militias and storming congress. You can raise the flag of Falwell Nation.

Good luck with that.

In the meantime, would you care for some reading material on court decisions regarding stealth Christianity, AKA creationism, being introduced into public schools?

It's NOT an established principle. It's an established misinterpretation since 1947. I hardly think our country plodded along for 150 years with a total misunderstanding of the 1st Amendment until Mr. Black's court informed them of their error.

And actually, those of us who value the Constitution's original intent have another option.

 

[Boss]

"Separation of church and state" is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The phrase has since been repeatedly used by the Supreme Court of the United States.

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..." and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Now you know.

Did I say I didn't know where the statement came from or the history behind it? Nope.

Did I say the Supreme Court had never used the statement? Nope.

Did I indicate I wasn't aware of the First Amendment? Nope.

The phrase was contained in a letter Jefferson wrote in 1801 to the Danbury Baptists who had written him about their opposition to the state's official religion. Jefferson's position was quite simple, it wasn't a federal matter. He used the phrase to denote something entirely different than the modern interpretation. In fact, in his capacity as President, he ends the letter with a prayer.

It wasn't until nearly 150 years later the phrase was ever mentioned again, and it was by Justice Hugo Black in a 1947 ruling, where he completely re-interpreted Jefferson's statement to mean something entirely different. This is what westwall is referring to.

The Supreme Court and perhaps every Constitutional lawyer in the country would disagree with you.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
- Thomas Jefferson

Is this in any way ambiguous?

The Supreme Court may very well disagree with me, but I know for a fact that every Constitutional lawyer in the country doesn't. And why are you posting an excerpt of Jefferson's letter like I've not read it before? Why do you OMIT the prayer he ended the letter with?

"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." ~President Thomas Jefferson

OMFG... He just endorsed the establishment of a religion!!1!!

In the very letter by which you interpret him to be saying that government can't officially recognize any religion, he does so in his official capacity as President with his highest respect and esteem.

 

[Hollie]

Well no, sweetie, it's a matter of history, not because I say so.

Well, actually sweetie, separation of church and state is an established principle.

You always have the option of arming your religious militias and storming congress. You can raise the flag of Falwell Nation.

Good luck with that.

In the meantime, would you care for some reading material on court decisions regarding stealth Christianity, AKA creationism, being introduced into public schools?

It's NOT an established principle. It's an established misinterpretation since 1947. I hardly think our country plodded along for 150 years with a total misunderstanding of the 1st Amendment until Mr. Black's court informed them of their error.

And actually, those of us who value the Constitution's original intent have another option.

Your denials of court decisions are yours to deal with.

"Other options"? Your melodrama impresses no one.

Get on with it. Lock and load, tough guy.

 

[orogenicman]

Did I say I didn't know where the statement came from or the history behind it? Nope.

Did I say the Supreme Court had never used the statement? Nope.

Did I indicate I wasn't aware of the First Amendment? Nope.

The phrase was contained in a letter Jefferson wrote in 1801 to the Danbury Baptists who had written him about their opposition to the state's official religion. Jefferson's position was quite simple, it wasn't a federal matter. He used the phrase to denote something entirely different than the modern interpretation. In fact, in his capacity as President, he ends the letter with a prayer.

It wasn't until nearly 150 years later the phrase was ever mentioned again, and it was by Justice Hugo Black in a 1947 ruling, where he completely re-interpreted Jefferson's statement to mean something entirely different. This is what westwall is referring to.

The Supreme Court and perhaps every Constitutional lawyer in the country would disagree with you.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
- Thomas Jefferson

Is this in any way ambiguous?

The Supreme Court may very well disagree with me, but I know for a fact that every Constitutional lawyer in the country doesn't. And why are you posting an excerpt of Jefferson's letter like I've not read it before? Why do you OMIT the prayer he ended the letter with?

Because his prayer is irrelevant to the issue of separation of Church and State.

"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." ~President Thomas Jefferson

OMFG... He just endorsed the establishment of a religion!!1!!

Lay off the Scotch, dude. An executive leader reciprocating a prayer in a letter to a church is not an endorsement of religion by the Congress.

 

[Hollie]

Did I say I didn't know where the statement came from or the history behind it? Nope.

Did I say the Supreme Court had never used the statement? Nope.

Did I indicate I wasn't aware of the First Amendment? Nope.

The phrase was contained in a letter Jefferson wrote in 1801 to the Danbury Baptists who had written him about their opposition to the state's official religion. Jefferson's position was quite simple, it wasn't a federal matter. He used the phrase to denote something entirely different than the modern interpretation. In fact, in his capacity as President, he ends the letter with a prayer.

It wasn't until nearly 150 years later the phrase was ever mentioned again, and it was by Justice Hugo Black in a 1947 ruling, where he completely re-interpreted Jefferson's statement to mean something entirely different. This is what westwall is referring to.

The Supreme Court and perhaps every Constitutional lawyer in the country would disagree with you.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
- Thomas Jefferson

Is this in any way ambiguous?

The Supreme Court may very well disagree with me, but I know for a fact that every Constitutional lawyer in the country doesn't. And why are you posting an excerpt of Jefferson's letter like I've not read it before? Why do you OMIT the prayer he ended the letter with?

"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." ~President Thomas Jefferson

OMFG... He just endorsed the establishment of a religion!!1!!

In the very letter by which you interpret him to be saying that government can't officially recognize any religion, he does so in his official capacity as President with his highest respect and esteem.

You're a Moron.

Jefferson ending his letter with a prayer is what we call "free expression".

 

[Boss]

The Supreme Court and perhaps every Constitutional lawyer in the country would disagree with you.

Is this in any way ambiguous?

The Supreme Court may very well disagree with me, but I know for a fact that every Constitutional lawyer in the country doesn't. And why are you posting an excerpt of Jefferson's letter like I've not read it before? Why do you OMIT the prayer he ended the letter with?

Because his prayer is irrelevant to the issue of separation of Church and State.

Well, not under YOUR interpretation of this "wall" which supposedly separates religion from state. It seems to be in direct contradiction to that interpretation. A point that obviously escaped Hugo Black in 1947 when he perverted Jefferson's words and re-wrote the 1st Amendment.

"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." ~President Thomas Jefferson

OMFG... He just endorsed the establishment of a religion!!1!!

Lay off the Scotch, dude. An executive leader reciprocating a prayer in a letter to a church is not an endorsement of religion by the Congress.

And neither is a student leading a prayer in a state-owned schoolhouse.

 

[Boss]

You're a Moron.

Jefferson ending his letter with a prayer is what we call "free expression".

Yes, and so is a kid leading prayer in a state schoolhouse.

 

[BreezeWood]

Well no, sweetie, it's a matter of history, not because I say so.

Well, actually sweetie, separation of church and state is an established principle.

You always have the option of arming your religious militias and storming congress. You can raise the flag of Falwell Nation.

Good luck with that.

In the meantime, would you care for some reading material on court decisions regarding stealth Christianity, AKA creationism, being introduced into public schools?

It's NOT an established principle. It's an established misinterpretation since 1947. I hardly think our country plodded along for 150 years with a total misunderstanding of the 1st Amendment until Mr. Black's court informed them of their error.

And actually, those of us who value the Constitution's original intent have another option.

Amendment [I.]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

are you ignoring a specific reason for the document was to address religious persecution that was instrumental in the founding of the new country ?

I hardly think our country plodded along for 150 years with a total misunderstanding of the 1st Amendment until Mr. Black's court informed them of their error.

The roots of church/state separation

First coined by the 17th century Baptist leader Roger Williams who, in 1636, founded Rhode Island, the phrase "separation of church and state" was used by both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (the father of the Constitution), to describe the meaning of the Constitution's religion clauses.

Roger Williams (theologian) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Roger Williams (c. 1603 – between January and March 1683) was an English Protestant theologian who was an early proponent of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. In 1636, he began the colony of Providence Plantation, which provided a refuge for religious minorities. Williams started the first Baptist church in America, the First Baptist Church of Providence. He was a student of Native American languages and an advocate for fair dealings with Native Americans. Williams was arguably the first abolitionist in North America, having organized the first attempt to prohibit slavery in any of the original thirteen colonies.

Roger Williams who, in 1636, founded Rhode Island, the phrase "separation of church and state"

not exactly 150 years ago.

.

 

[orogenicman]

The Supreme Court may very well disagree with me, but I know for a fact that every Constitutional lawyer in the country doesn't. And why are you posting an excerpt of Jefferson's letter like I've not read it before? Why do you OMIT the prayer he ended the letter with?

Because his prayer is irrelevant to the issue of separation of Church and State.

Well, not under YOUR interpretation of this "wall" which supposedly separates religion from state. It seems to be in direct contradiction to that interpretation. A point that obviously escaped Hugo Black in 1947 when he perverted Jefferson's words and re-wrote the 1st Amendment.

"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." ~President Thomas Jefferson

OMFG... He just endorsed the establishment of a religion!!1!!

Lay off the Scotch, dude. An executive leader reciprocating a prayer in a letter to a church is not an endorsement of religion by the Congress.

And neither is a student leading a prayer in a state-owned schoolhouse.

It is when the laws regulating that state-run school is promulgated by the state legislature. It is when the taxpayer is paying for the said school. But you're (allegedly) not a Christian anyway, so why do you give a damn?

 

[PostmodernProph]

well, every time they touch a dollar bill they are forced to utter a prayer....

 

[BreezeWood]

But you're (allegedly) not a Christian anyway, so why do you give a damn?

its agenda has become readily apparent ....

First coined by the 17th century Baptist leader Roger Williams who, in 1636, founded Rhode Island, the phrase "separation of church and state" was used by both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (the father of the Constitution), to describe the meaning of the Constitution's religion clauses.

both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (the father of the Constitution) -


the founding fathers must be "God Haters" according to the fundy.

.

 

[Boss]

are you ignoring a specific reason for the document was to address religious persecution that was instrumental in the founding of the new country ?

Not ignoring it at all. However, since 1947 and the Hugo Black ruling, we have had a de facto persecution of religious belief in this country. What was intended by Jefferson and the founding fathers to be a way of declaring federal "neutrality" in matters of religion, was turned into the notion of a barrier where religion and state could never touch.

Let's construct an analogy... Let's say you are the parent of 5 children, you represent our government and the children represent the various religions. You make the compact that you will never show favoritism for one child over the other, that you will treat them all equally and respectfully. (The 1st Amendment Establishment Clause) Does this mean you should lock your children in the dungeon and never speak to them again as long as they live? (The 'wall of separation' interpretation since 1947)

Roger Williams who, in 1636, founded Rhode Island, the phrase "separation of church and state"
not exactly 150 years ago.

Well, I was referring to the Constitution of the United States as opposed to the 1947 ruling by Justice Black.

 

[Hollie]

are you ignoring a specific reason for the document was to address religious persecution that was instrumental in the founding of the new country ?

Not ignoring it at all. However, since 1947 and the Hugo Black ruling, we have had a de facto persecution of religious belief in this country. What was intended by Jefferson and the founding fathers to be a way of declaring federal "neutrality" in matters of religion, was turned into the notion of a barrier where religion and state could never touch.

Let's construct an analogy... Let's say you are the parent of 5 children, you represent our government and the children represent the various religions. You make the compact that you will never show favoritism for one child over the other, that you will treat them all equally and respectfully. (The 1st Amendment Establishment Clause) Does this mean you should lock your children in the dungeon and never speak to them again as long as they live? (The 'wall of separation' interpretation since 1947)

Roger Williams who, in 1636, founded Rhode Island, the phrase "separation of church and state"
not exactly 150 years ago.

Well, I was referring to the Constitution of the United States as opposed to the 1947 ruling by Justice Black.

What persecution of religious beliefs?

 

[Boss]

Because his prayer is irrelevant to the issue of separation of Church and State.

Well, not under YOUR interpretation of this "wall" which supposedly separates religion from state. It seems to be in direct contradiction to that interpretation. A point that obviously escaped Hugo Black in 1947 when he perverted Jefferson's words and re-wrote the 1st Amendment.

Lay off the Scotch, dude. An executive leader reciprocating a prayer in a letter to a church is not an endorsement of religion by the Congress.

And neither is a student leading a prayer in a state-owned schoolhouse.

It is when the laws regulating that state-run school is promulgated by the state legislature. It is when the taxpayer is paying for the said school. But you're (allegedly) not a Christian anyway, so why do you give a damn?

Well hold on a second, you just said the criteria was what Congress does. Last I checked, the taxpayers also pay the salary of the President. And how did we suddenly jump from what Congress is able to do to what states are able to do? Have you read the 10th Amendment?

My religious affiliation has nothing to do with this argument. Sorry.

 

[Hollie]

Well, not under YOUR interpretation of this "wall" which supposedly separates religion from state. It seems to be in direct contradiction to that interpretation. A point that obviously escaped Hugo Black in 1947 when he perverted Jefferson's words and re-wrote the 1st Amendment.

And neither is a student leading a prayer in a state-owned schoolhouse.

It is when the laws regulating that state-run school is promulgated by the state legislature. It is when the taxpayer is paying for the said school. But you're (allegedly) not a Christian anyway, so why do you give a damn?

Well hold on a second, you just said the criteria was what Congress does. Last I checked, the taxpayers also pay the salary of the President. And how did we suddenly jump from what Congress is able to do to what states are able to do? Have you read the 10th Amendment?

My religious affiliation has nothing to do with this argument. Sorry.

Did you know that congress is the law-making body of the government?

 

[koshergrl]

But you're (allegedly) not a Christian anyway, so why do you give a damn?

its agenda has become readily apparent ....

First coined by the 17th century Baptist leader Roger Williams who, in 1636, founded Rhode Island, the phrase "separation of church and state" was used by both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (the father of the Constitution), to describe the meaning of the Constitution's religion clauses.

both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (the father of the Constitution) -


the founding fathers must be "God Haters" according to the fundy.

.

The founding fathers, who had seen religious persecution up close and personal, as had the Anabaptists who suggested a separation...knew the inherent danger in allowing the state to dictate to people what they must believe, and in what manner they could express their beliefs.

They proposed state and church remain separate in order to protect the faithful of any God-centered faith from lunatics like the progressives...who will back any cause, no matter how violent or abhorrent, if the final outcome is the silencing and murder of the faithful.

 

[Boss]

What persecution of religious beliefs?

All of them.

 

[Hollie]

What persecution of religious beliefs?

All of them.

As I thought, your reactionary, paranoid claims are absent support.

 

[Boss]

Did you know that congress is the law-making body of the government?

Yes. Did you know that a kid saying a prayer in a state-operated school is not Congress passing a law?

 

[Boss]

What persecution of religious beliefs?

All of them.

As I thought, your reactionary, paranoid claims are absent support.

There is nothing reactionary or paranoid in my claim. Since 1947 and a controversial ruling by Justice Hugo Black, we've had a de facto persecution of religious freedom in America. We are NOT able to exercise our religious freedom because at every turn we are met by some moron chortling "wall of separation!"