Why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions?

[TemplarKormac]

Adn no one can show otherwise.

Eh, yeah, I do believe they did show otherwise, see below.

Because immigration is changing the lives of Americans, that's why.

Immigrants are lowering our wages in this country, they are taking American jobs that Americans should have, they are changing us to a bilingual country because they come here without knowing the language and expect us to cater to them instead of the other way around. They are earning American dollars here and sending it back over the border to spend over there.

Wages are a supply and demand process. The lower the supply and higher the demand, prices go up. The higher the supply and lower demand, prices go down.

We can't increase our wages when we have an endless supply of workers coming into this country.

It is within our borders. Movement of free labor does not mean totally unregulated labor. That's cheating the system. Freedom of labor within our borders is a conservative principle, not importing labor

 

[Londoner]

It shows how capital movement is inhibited when it crosses borders because it must adapt to different language, laws and customs. The goal of free market capitalism is to level all cultural/national differences so that there are zero inefficiencies between the coupling of capital and resources/labor.

This is complete nonsense. Free markets are value free. There is value in having different languages and customs so voluntarism doesn't destroy them. All cultures change over time of course.

Just one example. When capital has to slow down to deal with different laws and spend money on lawyers, it loses time & money.

Returns are lowered, incentives weakened. This is why capital generally moves to the places where it has access to the cheapest labor/resources.

When capital loses access to the cheapest labor because a country limits the use of illegal labor, the result is higher labor costs = lower returns = incentives weakened.

If California enforced its borders, the agriculture, food-service and construction industries would take a huge it. Profits would go down, prices would go up and the incentive to invest would be weakened.

This is why the conservative leadership secretly loves porous borders. Porous borders (by delivering cheap labor costs) serves to lower the cost of production (and raises the profits of the donor class, which channels that money back into the GOP election machine). But it gets better. The porous borders that sustain profits are used by talk radio to scare uneducated xenophobic voters into the voting booth ...

WIN WIN

 

[whitehall]

Everybody supports immigration and trade restrictions. The problem for low information liberals is that they don't understand the difference between the words legal and illegal.

 

[Norman]

It shows how capital movement is inhibited when it crosses borders because it must adapt to different language, laws and customs. The goal of free market capitalism is to level all cultural/national differences so that there are zero inefficiencies between the coupling of capital and resources/labor.

This is complete nonsense. Free markets are value free. There is value in having different languages and customs so voluntarism doesn't destroy them. All cultures change over time of course.

Just one example. When capital has to slow down to deal with different laws and spend money on lawyers, it loses time & money.

Returns are lowered, incentives weakened. This is why capital generally moves to the places where it has access to the cheapest labor/resources.

When capital loses access to the cheapest labor because a country limits the use of illegal labor, the result is higher labor costs = lower returns = incentives weakened.

If California enforced its borders, the agriculture, food-service and construction industries would take a huge it. Profits would go down, prices would go up and the incentive to invest would be weakened.

This is why the conservative leadership secretly loves porous borders. Porous borders (by delivering cheap labor costs) serves to lower the cost of production (and raises the profits of the donor class, which channels that money back into the GOP election machine). But it gets better. The porous borders that sustain profits are used by talk radio to scare uneducated xenophobic voters into the voting booth ...

WIN WIN

You were talking about languages, laws and customs... Fail.

I kind of agree with your point, untill the immigrants become the welfare moms and it just becomes one more government program. This is the true reason why the immigrants vote democrat, to get freebies paid by taxpayer. Not so good deal now, is it?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

They aren't doing any of those things? So what you're telling me is that when I went to vote in the primary, I wasn't handed an English/Spanish ballot? All the signs on the tables and doors were written in English only? You mean to tell me I don't have to press 1 to speak to a representative in our language? None of that is happening?

Yes, they are keeping our wages lower because employers can hire them over us because they are willing to work for less money. Without them, employers that couldn't' find American employees would have to make a better offer to attract workers. I see it in my industry daily.

They are not sending our money back over the border? What do you think work Visas are?

I didnt see any Spanish language notices the last time I voted.
Employers cannot hire illegals over legal citizens.
If you do not support employers' rights to hire whomever they want at whatever wage they can agree on then you are not a conservative. You are a statist.

No, employers DO hire illegals over American citizens, just not legally. They do hire foreigners first because their wage is too low for an American to accept. And it will stay low as long as we have open borders and work Visas to take those jobs keeping them at low pay.

Conservatism is about Americans first--not foreigners first. Liberalism is about foreigners first.

And if you don't see Spanish ballots and signs all over the place at your polls, get ready, because it's spreading across America like a cancer. You may be the last to get hit, but it's coming very soon.

They subject themselves to large penalties and criminal charges so I doubt they do so knowingly. In any case the eVerify database is a mess with many false results.
When you hire someone to paint your house do you always take the highest bid?

No I don't, but I also don't hire foreigners to do work here. And yes, if a foreigner submitted a lower bid over an American, I would hire the American first.

So you're guilty of discrimination as well. Thanks.

Yes I am. I believe in solidarity with my people over foreigners. How can any real American say that is wrong?

 

[Pop23]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

Not sure they oppose legal immigration

11 million illegals with a 19 Trillion debt makes absolutely no sense.

I am not certain what the number of illegals or the debt has to do with this.
There is no difference between legal and illegal immigration other than the law, which can be changed. We can transform every illegal immigrant into a legal one with the stroke of a pen.

Illegal immegration cost Billions in resources that a country 19 Billion in debt simply does not have.

It's not really that difficult to understand

 

[FaerieGodfather]

From what I see here, a sufficient amount of people disagreed with you on your premise, Rabbi. A sound argument wouldn't illicit that type of response.

You've made sound arguments in this thread. What kind of response did they get?

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you're wrong. Hell, that's the point you were making in the first place.

 

[bripat9643]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

Not sure they oppose legal immigration

11 million illegals with a 19 Trillion debt makes absolutely no sense.

I am not certain what the number of illegals or the debt has to do with this.
There is no difference between legal and illegal immigration other than the law, which can be changed. We can transform every illegal immigrant into a legal one with the stroke of a pen.

Why would anyone want to do that? If anything, we should reduce the number of legal immigrants as well as eliminate all the illegals. Every immigrant from Mexico is a competitor for American jobs. If you want the price of labor to increase, you have to reduce the supply. It's as simple as that.

 

[bripat9643]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

Because immigration is changing the lives of Americans, that's why.

Immigrants are lowering our wages in this country, they are taking American jobs that Americans should have, they are changing us to a bilingual country because they come here without knowing the language and expect us to cater to them instead of the other way around. They are earning American dollars here and sending it back over the border to spend over there.

Wages are a supply and demand process. The lower the supply and higher the demand, prices go up. The higher the supply and lower demand, prices go down.

We can't increase our wages when we have an endless supply of workers coming into this country.

The same workers should start at least some businesses, besides that the cheap labor ultimately makes for cheaper prices.

The jobs killing mexicans argument is not particularly well thought out IMHO. If you think you can't compete with an unskilled mexican, perhaps you should ask whether the public education is doing you any good... oh wait... it isn't. Anyway, it appears that the mexicans are a different breed of immigrants than the muslim rapugees.

I have my doubts that Trump is going to do much about the mexican "problem". Perhaps the wall will get built, or not.

It will cost about $40 Billion to deport all the illegals here. Think of how much we could buy with that money.

All the welfare we give them costs us $200 billion/year. $40 billion to get rid of them is a bargain.

How much is their labor worth collectively? We will lose all that.

Who is "we?" What do I care if the immigrant is no longer working here? He's also not consuming or sucking down government benefits.

 

[bripat9643]

How much is their labor worth collectively? We will lose all that.

Who said we wanted to get rid of it completely?

So how many illegal aliens would you like to keep?

None.

 

[bripat9643]

They may be people, but they aren't Americans. Limiting immigration doesn't limit my freedom, and that's all I care about. That's all any American should care about. Our government exists to serve the interests of Americans, not foreigners. They can fix the problems with their own country rather than bringing their problems to this one.

I agree with you, but that doesn't make it any less authoritarian. One might argue that not caring about others' freedoms is the very basis of authoritarianism.

They are foreigners. Their freedom is not our problem. You can't seem to get over the idea that the U.S. government is some kind of welfare agency for the entire world. We have no obligation to worry about the welfare of foreigners.

 

[bripat9643]

This post reflects Reagan's conflation of Libertarianism (which believes in open borders) with Conservatism (which does not)

In fact Reagan was a libertarian who used conservatism as a populism to attract uneducated voters to the movement.

The OP should read "The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism" by conservative Harvard Professor Daniel Bell.

It explains exactly where and how open markets conflict with conservative values.

It shows how capital movement is inhibited when it crosses borders because it must adapt to different language, laws and customs. The goal of free market capitalism is to level all cultural/national differences so that there are zero inefficiencies between the coupling of capital and resources/labor.

The book shows how free market capitalism actually destroys Borders/Language/Culture - which is why the conservative movement has to construct a vast propaganda system (FOX, Rush, American Enterprise Institute, etc) to cover up the fact that their Free Market policies undercut the conservative values they use to attract voters.

Rabbi: this is a good issue to discuss. Kudos.

Being a Conservative means going into the voting booth to vote against Roe but coming out with Free Trade. Being a Conservative means not seeing this conflict because of a very powerful message system.

Libertarianism endorses open borders only if all government property is sold off. That means no national forests, not government roads, freeways, schools, or anything else.

The rest of your post is the usual bull crap. You know nothing about capitalism, libertarianism or conservativism that isn't propaganda.

 

[bripat9643]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

Because immigration is changing the lives of Americans, that's why.

Immigrants are lowering our wages in this country, they are taking American jobs that Americans should have, they are changing us to a bilingual country because they come here without knowing the language and expect us to cater to them instead of the other way around. They are earning American dollars here and sending it back over the border to spend over there.

Wages are a supply and demand process. The lower the supply and higher the demand, prices go up. The higher the supply and lower demand, prices go down.

We can't increase our wages when we have an endless supply of workers coming into this country.

The same workers should start at least some businesses, besides that the cheap labor ultimately makes for cheaper prices.

The jobs killing mexicans argument is not particularly well thought out IMHO. If you think you can't compete with an unskilled mexican, perhaps you should ask whether the public education is doing you any good... oh wait... it isn't. Anyway, it appears that the mexicans are a different breed of immigrants than the muslim rapugees.

I have my doubts that Trump is going to do much about the mexican "problem". Perhaps the wall will get built, or not.

It will cost about $40 Billion to deport all the illegals here. Think of how much we could buy with that money.

That may be true, but if anybody had balls enough to pass a law that states anybody caught here that is illegal after July 1, 2016 is subject to a minimum 5 years in prison, there would be no need for walls, more border patrol or more security cameras. Most would leave on their own.

Where are we going to put 11M people for five years? You complain about giving them benefits. How would that help that?

Arrest a few hundred thousand and the rest will high tail it back to Mexico.

 

[TemplarKormac]

How much is their labor worth collectively? We will lose all that.

Who said we wanted to get rid of it completely?

So how many illegal aliens would you like to keep?

None.

AP-GfK Poll: Majority of Americans favor path to citizenship

 

[bripat9643]

It shows how capital movement is inhibited when it crosses borders because it must adapt to different language, laws and customs. The goal of free market capitalism is to level all cultural/national differences so that there are zero inefficiencies between the coupling of capital and resources/labor.

This is complete nonsense. Free markets are value free. There is value in having different languages and customs so voluntarism doesn't destroy them. All cultures change over time of course.

Just one example. When capital has to slow down to deal with different laws and spend money on lawyers, it loses time & money.

Returns are lowered, incentives weakened. This is why capital generally moves to the places where it has access to the cheapest labor/resources.

When capital loses access to the cheapest labor because a country limits the use of illegal labor, the result is higher labor costs = lower returns = incentives weakened.

If California enforced its borders, the agriculture, food-service and construction industries would take a huge it. Profits would go down, prices would go up and the incentive to invest would be weakened.

This is why the conservative leadership secretly loves porous borders. Porous borders (by delivering cheap labor costs) serves to lower the cost of production (and raises the profits of the donor class, which channels that money back into the GOP election machine). But it gets better. The porous borders that sustain profits are used by talk radio to scare uneducated xenophobic voters into the voting booth ...

WIN WIN

We know employers love cheap labor. However, by acknowledging that you are admitting that barring cheap labor from entry to the country would cause wages to increase.

You just shot your own argument in the foot.

 

[bripat9643]

How much is their labor worth collectively? We will lose all that.

Who said we wanted to get rid of it completely?

So how many illegal aliens would you like to keep?

None.

AP-GfK Poll: Majority of Americans favor path to citizenship

As opposed to what, deporting them all? We've seen your bogus poll before. A majority of Americans support controlling the border and reducing immigration.

 

[FaerieGodfather]

They are foreigners. Their freedom is not our problem. You can't seem to get over the idea that the U.S.
government is some kind of welfare agency for the entire world. We have no obligation to worry about the welfare of foreigners.

Did you miss the part where I said I agreed with you? Their freedom is not our problem; we have no obligation to worry about the welfare of foreigners.

I'm not saying that immigration control is wrong, I am saying that it is authoritarian, because words have meanings and they don't care if you like what they mean or not. If you are so morally opposed to authoritarianism that you cannot stand for your beliefs to be labelled "authoritarian", then you either need to change your beliefs or learn to accept and embrace the fact that you have some authoritarian views.

 

[bripat9643]

They are foreigners. Their freedom is not our problem. You can't seem to get over the idea that the U.S.
government is some kind of welfare agency for the entire world. We have no obligation to worry about the welfare of foreigners.

Did you miss the part where I said I agreed with you? Their freedom is not our problem; we have no obligation to worry about the welfare of foreigners.

I'm not saying that immigration control is wrong, I am saying that it is authoritarian, because words have meanings and they don't care if you like what they mean or not. If you are so morally opposed to authoritarianism that you cannot stand for your beliefs to be labelled "authoritarian", then you either need to change your beliefs or learn to accept and embrace the fact that you have some authoritarian views.

The "authoritarian" label is meaningless in this context. It's simply a matter of acting in our self-interest rather than theirs. If it doesn't harm Americans, then why should any of them care? You're simply trying to apply a pejorative label where it doesn't belong so you can win an argument without proving anything.

 

[FaerieGodfather]

The "authoritarian" label is meaningless in this context. It's simply a matter of acting in our self-interest rather than theirs. If it doesn't harm Americans, then why should any of them care? You're simply trying to apply a pejorative label where it doesn't belong so you can win an argument without proving anything.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm correcting you; like the OP, you seem to have a problem with the concept that words have meanings.

Immigration control is "authoritarian" because it is diametrically opposed to both liberalism and libertarianism. That is what the word means regardless of whether or not you like it. You're a self-admitted conservative. Stop pretending that you are a libertarian or that conservatism is a libertarian philosophy. Conservatism has some ideological overlap with right-wing libertarianism, but they are not identical; conservatism is fundamentally about preserving traditional forms of authority, which makes it a fundamentally authoritarian philosophy. When conservatism fights against authority, it is doing so because that authority is somehow challenging traditional, typically hierarchical, values.

If you want to be a libertarian, be a libertarian; it's not difficult. But if you hold authoritarian social and political views, stop whining about it when people call you an authoritarian.

 

[bripat9643]

The "authoritarian" label is meaningless in this context. It's simply a matter of acting in our self-interest rather than theirs. If it doesn't harm Americans, then why should any of them care? You're simply trying to apply a pejorative label where it doesn't belong so you can win an argument without proving anything.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm correcting you; like the OP, you seem to have a problem with the concept that words have meanings.

You claim you're aren't arguing with me, and then you immediately admit you are disagreeing with me. You're obviously a boob and a leftwing douche bag.

Immigration control is "authoritarian" because it is diametrically opposed to both liberalism and libertarianism. That is what the word means regardless of whether or not you like it. You're a self-admitted conservative. Stop pretending that you are a libertarian or that conservatism is a libertarian philosophy. Conservatism has some ideological overlap with right-wing libertarianism, but they are not identical; conservatism is fundamentally about preserving traditional forms of authority, which makes it a fundamentally authoritarian philosophy. When conservatism fights against authority, it is doing so because that authority is somehow challenging traditional, typically hierarchical, values.

If you want to be a libertarian, be a libertarian; it's not difficult. But if you hold authoritarian social and political views, stop whining about it when people call you an authoritarian.

Nothing could be more authoritarian than flooding this country with cheap immigrant labor. By doing that you're imposing something on American citizens that they definitely don't want. Defending our borders is one of the basic functions our government is supposed to do. Expecting government to perform its most basic function is not "authoritarian." Only a douche bag who is trying to put something over on the public would claim it is. It's an attempt to label something that is perfectly reasonable and sensible as something reprehensible.

No one is fooled, so go fuck yourself.