Zone1 Why did Jesus say we had to not only believe but be baptized?

[Harry Dresden]

Two persons. One God.

but 2 distinct beings....

 

[BS Filter]

but 2 distinct beings....

Yes, but one in purpose and agreement. Father, Son and Holy Spirit always agree. One God.

 

[Meriweather]

so Jesus and god are 2 separate beings?.....

No. How Church Fathers explained it is that Jesus has two natures--one divine and one human. Same being, but two different natures. He took on human nature, but from the beginning his nature has always been divine--probably why in his human nature he was still able to live this life without sin.

 

[Crick]

Well, most christians believe that we are born with original sin on our souls. Oh, wait.. that's not exactly whatCatholics believe (not sure of others). We are born with the stain of original sin on our souls. That means that when our ancestors fell, our very nature fell... Sin is egregious (libs say something else but they can go back to Politics and be libs all they want...)

Anyhow, baptism washes away that stain.

And even then we see how evil people can be, even after being baptized. We are born LOST. Only Jesus can help us to find our way... by following HIS way.

Jesus is God

"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father"

"I and the Father are one"

What is the spiritual difference between two people who have led identical lives save one was baptized and one was not? Is the unbaptized forced to go to hell no matter what? Is the unbaptized more likely to sin in other ways? Does the lack of baptism directly cause suffering? Can we discern the presence of this stain? Is the stain from Eve succumbing to temptation differentiable from the stain of other sins our ancestors committed?

 

[BS Filter]

What is the spiritual difference between two people who have led identical lives save one was baptized and one was not? Is the unbaptized forced to go to hell no matter what? Is the unbaptized more likely to sin in other ways? Does the lack of baptism directly cause suffering? Can we discern the presence of this stain? Is the stain from Eve succumbing to temptation differentiable from the stain of other sins our ancestors committed?

You don't go to hell if you aren't baptized.

 

[zaangalewa]

Origen​

“Since our mind is in itself unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Father of the universe from the beauty of his works and from the elegance of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind” (Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:6 [A.D. 225]).

What the Early Church Believed: God Has No Body

Certain groups, notably the Mormons, have committed the error of saying that God the Father has a human form. This was rejected by the early Christians.

www.catholic.com

Did you not recognize that all that all this people said nearly the same what I said? I made only a little mistake because I thought you quoted all this very old stuff for to say "god father has a body". So god is not only not corporeal - the whole situation is even much more worse and god could also be unspiritual and he could in total not exist - what plays not any role at all because he transcends the nothing. But we don not do so. We are creation. And in Jesus god made himselve also to a part of his own creation.

 

[Meriweather]

What is the spiritual difference between two people who have led identical lives save one was baptized and one was not?

One invites the presence of God into his/her life.

Is the unbaptized forced to go to hell no matter what? Is the unbaptized more likely to sin in other ways?

No. And not necessarily, depending on the individual.

Does the lack of baptism directly cause suffering?

No. I am going to silly here with my analogy because you just may appreciate it. Does a lack of a dog in my life (or spouse or children) cause suffering? But...is something missing or lacking without them? Having/including God in one's life is including something more into one's life. This is does not mean God isn't on the peripheral of the lives of non-believers, but when invited he more fully enters into that life.

Think of it this way: Two people living the exact same life: One baptized, one not. What if the unbaptized had been baptized...would his life then surpassed a fellow human's life that was baptized? Was there a potential that was not fulfilled?

Can we discern the presence of this stain? Is the stain from Eve succumbing to temptation differentiable from the stain of other sins our ancestors committed?

Can we discern the presence of all that is in DNA? I think this analogy works: If someone murders a young person, are all the descendants that young person may have fathered being punished by non-existence? Note, it wasn't even their father that committed the sin of murder! Yet another's sin meant no existence for some. Adam and Eve did something that changed the course of human existence. It's not that we are being punished for whatever they did, but humanity was affected by what they did.

 

[Zebra]

if jesus is god....who was he praying to in the garden that night?....

good question

 

[BS Filter]

good question

His Father. The disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray. Jesus began..."Our Father..."

 

[Harry Dresden]

No. How Church Fathers explained it is that Jesus has two natures--one divine and one human. Same being, but two different natures. He took on human nature, but from the beginning his nature has always been divine--probably why in his human nature he was still able to live this life without sin.

so who was god praying too?....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Two persons. One God.

up above you said he is god.....

 

[Meriweather]

so who was god praying too?....

Do you have a point you wish to make? That question was asked and answered already.

 

[Crick]

One invites the presence of God into his/her life.

Are you suggesting that the baptism is mandatory to have god in your life? I always like to consider a human raised in isolation with no exposure or knowledge of the bible or the teachings of a church. Take such a person and tell them that others believe in and worship an all-powerful god who created the universe but nothing else. Are they going to conceive of baptism or communion or the cross or the sabbath? No, unless god speaks to them and tells them of it.

No. And not necessarily, depending on the individual.

That's good, but you know in times past it was held that baptism was necessary to get to heaven.

No. I am going to silly here with my analogy because you just may appreciate it. Does a lack of a dog in my life (or spouse or children) cause suffering? But...is something missing or lacking without them? Having/including God in one's life is including something more into one's life. This is does not mean God isn't on the peripheral of the lives of non-believers, but when invited he more fully enters into that life.

Why would he enter more fully into the life of the baptized? Surely it is possible for someone to want god in their lives with and without undergoing the procedure. What I'm trying to address here is more of the magic of the ritual.

Think of it this way: Two people living the exact same life: One baptized, one not. What if the unbaptized had been baptized...would his life then surpassed a fellow human's life that was baptized? Was there a potential that was not fulfilled?

If there is ANY effect, then you have either proscribed the power of your omnipotent god or have given the ritual magical power over us.

Can we discern the presence of all that is in DNA?

Some. And it is scientifically possible to determine what every bit of it is doing.

I think this analogy works: If someone murders a young person, are all the descendants that young person may have fathered being punished by non-existence?

No. You have to exist first to suffer punishment, to experience anything.

Note, it wasn't even their father that committed the sin of murder! Yet another's sin meant no existence for some. Adam and Eve did something that changed the course of human existence.

Would we be here if they had not tasted the apple?

It's not that we are being punished for whatever they did, but humanity was affected by what they did.

Why the term Original Sin? Why is it called a stain that must be washed away? Why has the church used it for millennia to suppress women?

 

[Meriweather]

Are you suggesting

No. I am explaining why there is baptism in Christian lives.

 

[Meriweather]

That's good, but you know in times past it was held that baptism was necessary to get to heaven.

So?

 

[Meriweather]

Why would he enter more fully into the life of the baptized? Surely it is possible for someone to want god in their lives with and without undergoing the procedure. What I'm trying to address here is more of the magic of the ritual.

What magic?

In Christianity, baptism is the visible sign of the invisible reality. Basically, we are aware that as well as being children of God, we are living this life with a fallen human nature, but we are going to choose anyway--to the best of our ability--to away from disobedience and to be obedient to God. Turning from temptation to obedience is not magic, it is an act of will, and sometimes a supreme act of will.

 

[Meriweather]

If there is ANY effect, then you have either proscribed the power of your omnipotent god or have given the ritual magical power over us.

Christianity is a way of life not access to "magic" however you are defining that. Most Christians are not praying for power, as most a perfectly willing to leave power in the hands of God. We do pray for the strength to do the will of God.

 

[Meriweather]

Would we be here if they had not tasted the apple?

Don't know. Too many variables to consider. The way of life would be different.

 

[Meriweather]

Why the term Original Sin? Why is it called a stain that must be washed away? Why has the church used it for millennia to suppress women?

First of all, I think it is interesting you think women can be oppressed.

The Hebrew etymology for what is known as 'sin' was "missing the target." God's plan for Adam and Eve was for them to hit the target, but they missed. Reading through the Bible you might note new targets (i.e. Commandments) were set up. Sometime we hit them, sometimes we miss.

Etymology is fascinating--a long hobby of mine. Naughty, for example used to mean a poor person who was in need for he had naught. Awful used to mean wonder and amazement (think of the root 'awe'). Language changes. You might say that is awful (in both past/present usage). And, that we are naughty (lacking the knowledge of language and trying to change something it once meant in order to use it mockingly today.

 

[Cougarbear]

your reply was stupid. Youre comparing God to you/humans.

Jesus is a glorified resurrected human. We are Gods in embryo because Jesus said so. He said it in Psalms 82:6 and again in John 10:34.
Jesus also said if you have seen me you have seen the my Father. Therefore, Father in heaven is also a glorified resurrected human being. It’s your lack of humility to accept the Word because even though Jesus said these things, you will reject Jesus’s words. Your words are near Him but your heart is far away from Him.