Why American children are falling behind

[Samson]

One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.

Education, like many social "sciences" faces a particular limitation on testing theories; it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories. Too often the "theory" which is now touted was a success only because of the particular combination of teacher, administration and students. When it is applied by the masses of teachers it only results in confusion; something along the lines of the military axiom- Order, Counter Order, Disorder.

Yes.

Not sure what point you're making?

Should social sciences NOT test theories?

Hmmm..........so, you wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?

No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.

There is no evidence to support your assertaion that holding back underachievers will do anything but allow them to more concretely define themselves as underachievers.

But, let's imagine that threatening underachievers with underachievement might motivate and underachiever.

And let's imagine that teachers who have a underachieving student for 9 months, cannot wait to get another crack at them AGAIN.

And let's imagine classrooms have unlimited space in which to deposite underachievers.

And let's imagine parents of underachieving students will be just tickled pink to pick up their living expenses for an additional year of public schooling.

You've already pointed out the difficulties associated with having Special Ed kids in a room already full of "normals." Don't you think that having an 8th grader that's beginning to shave (or worse) might be distracting in a 6th grade class?

 

[Charles Stucker]

2. Social promotion stops being an issue once a student hits High School. At that point forward class rank is figured by credit hours earned, eliminating social promotion for the most part. Perhaps we need to take a similar approach earlier on.

Actually Dallas had a long standing rule that no more than one student could be failed in a given high school class. Which gave rise to the classic you don't have to run faster than the bear type of scenarios; students did not have to master the material to pass, they just had to do a tiny bit more than the weakest student. I understand that for a few years (early 80"s?) DISD had a no failure rule and everyone passed every class if they attended regularly.

Yes we do need to have a procedure where failing students are held back and the administration must back the teachers on these decisions. Of course as soon as the lawyers step in.........

 

[Samson]

2. Social promotion stops being an issue once a student hits High School. At that point forward class rank is figured by credit hours earned, eliminating social promotion for the most part. Perhaps we need to take a similar approach earlier on.

Actually Dallas had a long standing rule that no more than one student could be failed in a given high school class. Which gave rise to the classic you don't have to run faster than the bear type of scenarios; students did not have to master the material to pass, they just had to do a tiny bit more than the weakest student. I understand that for a few years (early 80"s?) DISD had a no failure rule and everyone passed every class if they attended regularly.

Yes we do need to have a procedure where failing students are held back and the administration must back the teachers on these decisions. Of course as soon as the lawyers step in.........

Social Promotion has nothing or little to do with it.

Retaining students is not only a logistical nightmare but is also not effective.

Except maybe in ONE case, that I'll grant you: Retaining Kindergartners.

There is smoething to be said for simply allowing kids at this age to mature another year, and it can be done without creating monsterous results in the classroom.

 

[PoliticalChic]

One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.

Education, like many social "sciences" faces a particular limitation on testing theories; it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories. Too often the "theory" which is now touted was a success only because of the particular combination of teacher, administration and students. When it is applied by the masses of teachers it only results in confusion; something along the lines of the military axiom- Order, Counter Order, Disorder.

Hmmm..........so, you wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?

No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.

1. "...it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories."
The solution to this is to tie ed funds to the student and allow the parent to choose any schooling that they see fit, as we did with the G.I. Bill
Testing will sort out the successful venues.

2. "...holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence."
Since most ed schools teach that the above is untrue...

"Fifty-nine percent, for example, think academic sanctions such as the threat of flunking or being held back are not important to motivating kids to learn.” Professors of Education: It's How You Learn, Not What You Learn That's Most Important | Public Agenda

...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.


There is no convincing evidence that certified teachers are more effective in the classroom or that ed-school-based training helps. Education Schools Project

See http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dstaiger/Papers/nyc fellows march 2006.pdf for evidence that certification has very little effect on student achievement.

“…private schools appear to do fine- perhaps better-without being compelled to hire state certified teachers.” Chester Finn, “Troublemaker,” p. 283.

The American Board for Certification of Teacher Excellence proposed the following requirements alone for a teaching license: graduate college, pass a criminal background check, and a rigorous test of knowledge of their subject.

 

[saveliberty]

Schools no longer have the luxury of recruiting the best and brightest to be teachers. Before women's liberation the big professional careers were nursing and teaching, so the teaching field could choose from among the very best. That is no longer the case and effective teaching is difficult, made more so by endless government mandated paperwork (of no value) which drives away those who would otherwise make good teachers..

Excellent point, and one that Most Academians will obscure because it highlights a disadvatage to Wimmins Liberation. Usually this is held forth with the following: Nursing and Teaching were underpaid positions before Wimmins Lib, and unfairly remain so because of continuing bias towards Wimmins. Thus, we ignore the fact that many Wimmins have entered a labor market where the competing salaries, based on the VALUE OF THE LABOR, allows them more lucrative career choices. We also ignore the fact that many Wimmins (and Mens) CHOOSE to be teachers DESPITE the lower pay. Why? Take your pick of reasons, but having almost 3 months off working a year may be one.

At the same time crack babies, Down's Syndrome children and countless other 'special needs' children flood the classes because of the moronic 'No Child Left Behind' policy. Couple that with administrations which limit teachers to failing no more than one student per class (otherwise you're not teaching effectively) and the result is clear. Two brain damaged kids hold back the entire class as no one has to exceed their level of ability. I have no desire to deny the mentally handicapped a chance at whatever education they can obtain, but when it impacts all the other students then I object..

You're making a common error: NCLB has little to do with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act signed, rather reluctantly, by Gerald Ford. In actual practice, there were initially few students that qualified as "special ed." However, there are an increasing number of Autistic Kids, or why ADD, ADHD, OBD, CD, Bi-Polar, OCD, and an ever growing list of Mental Disorders seem to have decended like Plagues Upon the Land of the Brave. Do you wonder why? I'll let you guess, (Hint: Its not because we're devolving into chimpanzees)



One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.

Several other problems exist; unconcerned parents, gangs, drugs, cell phones (and texting), lawyers pushing suits when schools try to instill any level of discipline in rowdy brats, and inept politicians attempting to direct from the national level when schools are best handled at the local level..

MOST parents are very concerned about their offspring. I usually shy away from blaming "society" for anything, because it seems like a pussy excuse, but I must point out something here that IS a sociological disorder: Teenagers are being treated like Adults. I think this is a product of having laws allowing teenagers to be drafted, to vote, to drink, to drive, and a number of other responsibilities that would have astonished the world 50 years ago.

The solution to the problem is to force the politicians and lawyers out of the classroom, break the NEA and remake it from better material, get parents interested in their kids, and hold students to standards. If that means little Johnny has to repeat third grade, then Johnny gets held back.

Hmmm..........so, you wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?

I had a teaching degree from college. Do I want to teach anymore? Sure, my classroom, my rules. Question is...can the student and parents handle that?

 

[Samson]

One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.

Education, like many social "sciences" faces a particular limitation on testing theories; it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories. Too often the "theory" which is now touted was a success only because of the particular combination of teacher, administration and students. When it is applied by the masses of teachers it only results in confusion; something along the lines of the military axiom- Order, Counter Order, Disorder.

Hmmm..........so, you wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?

No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.

1. "...it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories."
The solution to this is to tie ed funds to the student and allow the parent to choose any schooling that they see fit, as we did with the G.I. Bill
Testing will sort out the successful venues.

2. "...holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence."
Since most ed schools teach that the above is untrue...

"Fifty-nine percent, for example, think academic sanctions such as the threat of flunking or being held back are not important to motivating kids to learn.” Professors of Education: It's How You Learn, Not What You Learn That's Most Important | Public Agenda

...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.


There is no convincing evidence that certified teachers are more effective in the classroom or that ed-school-based training helps. Education Schools Project

See http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dstaiger/Papers/nyc fellows march 2006.pdf for evidence that certification has very little effect on student achievement.

“…private schools appear to do fine- perhaps better-without being compelled to hire state certified teachers.” Chester Finn, “Troublemaker,” p. 283.

The American Board for Certification of Teacher Excellence proposed the following requirements alone for a teaching license: graduate college, pass a criminal background check, and a rigorous test of knowledge of their subject.

After wading through your customary muck of opinion based opinion, I'm still not certain if you have a point?

Was this it?

...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.

I agree, an BA Ed is completely worthless, and shouldn't be offered. Teacher Certification is a State Rsponsibility: there are already ways to become certified without a BA Ed.

So, if we use student grades to determine teacher's "tenure" why would anyone wanna teach 1st grade?

 

[Samson]

Schools no longer have the luxury of recruiting the best and brightest to be teachers. Before women's liberation the big professional careers were nursing and teaching, so the teaching field could choose from among the very best. That is no longer the case and effective teaching is difficult, made more so by endless government mandated paperwork (of no value) which drives away those who would otherwise make good teachers..

Excellent point, and one that Most Academians will obscure because it highlights a disadvatage to Wimmins Liberation. Usually this is held forth with the following: Nursing and Teaching were underpaid positions before Wimmins Lib, and unfairly remain so because of continuing bias towards Wimmins. Thus, we ignore the fact that many Wimmins have entered a labor market where the competing salaries, based on the VALUE OF THE LABOR, allows them more lucrative career choices. We also ignore the fact that many Wimmins (and Mens) CHOOSE to be teachers DESPITE the lower pay. Why? Take your pick of reasons, but having almost 3 months off working a year may be one.



You're making a common error: NCLB has little to do with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act signed, rather reluctantly, by Gerald Ford. In actual practice, there were initially few students that qualified as "special ed." However, there are an increasing number of Autistic Kids, or why ADD, ADHD, OBD, CD, Bi-Polar, OCD, and an ever growing list of Mental Disorders seem to have decended like Plagues Upon the Land of the Brave. Do you wonder why? I'll let you guess, (Hint: Its not because we're devolving into chimpanzees)



One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.



MOST parents are very concerned about their offspring. I usually shy away from blaming "society" for anything, because it seems like a pussy excuse, but I must point out something here that IS a sociological disorder: Teenagers are being treated like Adults. I think this is a product of having laws allowing teenagers to be drafted, to vote, to drink, to drive, and a number of other responsibilities that would have astonished the world 50 years ago.

The solution to the problem is to force the politicians and lawyers out of the classroom, break the NEA and remake it from better material, get parents interested in their kids, and hold students to standards. If that means little Johnny has to repeat third grade, then Johnny gets held back.

Hmmm..........so, you wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?

I had a teaching degree from college. Do I want to teach anymore? Sure, my classroom, my rules. Question is...can the student and parents handle that?

WTF are "your rules?"

Why do you even ask if "the student and parents handle that?"

As long as you're teaching approve curriculum, and following the school's discipline plan, they have no choice.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.

Getting a teaching licsense isn't actually that hard, and many many many states have alternative certification procedures thanks to some very lean years in education.

The other point, tying a teacher's tenure to student grades, is a formula for disaster. The degree of disaster is directly related to how much input the teacher has on student grades. If you're tying a teacher's tenure to results from a standardized test, then the Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like. At the very least, the successful teacher will only teach the skills necessary to pass the test, which is not at all the same as teaching the skill necessary for success later. If you're tying a teacher's tenure to the classroom grade, the bar will plummet.

 

[PoliticalChic]

...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.

Getting a teaching licsense isn't actually that hard, and many many many states have alternative certification procedures thanks to some very lean years in education.

The other point, tying a teacher's tenure to student grades, is a formula for disaster. The degree of disaster is directly related to how much input the teacher has on student grades. If you're tying a teacher's tenure to results from a standardized test, then the Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like. At the very least, the successful teacher will only teach the skills necessary to pass the test, which is not at all the same as teaching the skill necessary for success later. If you're tying a teacher's tenure to the classroom grade, the bar will plummet.

1. "...Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like."
I have heard similar critiques from many teachers, and there is probably a great deal of experience to this fear.
How about if we take this power out of the hands of administrators, and use a randomized computer program for selection, for assigning classes to teachers?

2. The Obama Administration's "Race to the Top" predicates monetary awards to states that correlate the student scores to the teacher they had.
I think that this is the only real way to rate teacher's ability.
Would this be more fair if the scores were not of one year, but of a set period so that more than one group of children were the basis of tenure decisions?

"Standardized tests produce rich sources of information that researchers can use to identify effective policies and practices. The data revolution, moreover, promises to move education policy away from politics. Numbers don’t have agendas or run for reelection. Accurately collected and properly analyzed, data can reveal truths that escape our sight.

One such truth is the effectiveness of individual teachers. Data analysis is far from perfect, and no one argues that it should be used in isolation to make employment decisions. But modern techniques can help us distinguish between teachers whose students excel and teachers whose students languish or fail. There’s just one problem with the data revolution: it doesn’t work without data."http://www.city-journal.org/2009/eon1214mw.html

"Oregon for the first time plans to connect student test scores to the teachers responsible for those students and make the results available to teachers, principals and researchers to help them judge teachers' effectiveness.

Schools will be expected to use those results to improve teaching practices and could use them to help decide which teachers they should promote, give bonuses or let go.

Those plans are laid out in Oregon's application to win a $200 million share of the Obama administration's $4 billion Race to the Top fund."
EducationNews.org - Oregon to peg teacher ratings to student scores

 

[PoliticalChic]

...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.

Getting a teaching licsense isn't actually that hard, and many many many states have alternative certification procedures thanks to some very lean years in education.

The other point, tying a teacher's tenure to student grades, is a formula for disaster. The degree of disaster is directly related to how much input the teacher has on student grades. If you're tying a teacher's tenure to results from a standardized test, then the Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like. At the very least, the successful teacher will only teach the skills necessary to pass the test, which is not at all the same as teaching the skill necessary for success later. If you're tying a teacher's tenure to the classroom grade, the bar will plummet.

"...the successful teacher will only teach the skills necessary to pass the test, which is not at all the same as teaching the skill necessary for success later."

“Teaching to the test” is deplored in education circles, although that complaint is easily answered: if the test faithfully mirrors the skills and knowledge set out in the standards, then preparing one’s pupils to ace such a test is an honorable mission!
From “Troublemaker,” by Chester E. Finn, Jr. Former Assistant Secretary of Education under President Reagan.

 

[saveliberty]

Excellent point, and one that Most Academians will obscure because it highlights a disadvatage to Wimmins Liberation. Usually this is held forth with the following: Nursing and Teaching were underpaid positions before Wimmins Lib, and unfairly remain so because of continuing bias towards Wimmins. Thus, we ignore the fact that many Wimmins have entered a labor market where the competing salaries, based on the VALUE OF THE LABOR, allows them more lucrative career choices. We also ignore the fact that many Wimmins (and Mens) CHOOSE to be teachers DESPITE the lower pay. Why? Take your pick of reasons, but having almost 3 months off working a year may be one.



You're making a common error: NCLB has little to do with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act signed, rather reluctantly, by Gerald Ford. In actual practice, there were initially few students that qualified as "special ed." However, there are an increasing number of Autistic Kids, or why ADD, ADHD, OBD, CD, Bi-Polar, OCD, and an ever growing list of Mental Disorders seem to have decended like Plagues Upon the Land of the Brave. Do you wonder why? I'll let you guess, (Hint: Its not because we're devolving into chimpanzees)



One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.



MOST parents are very concerned about their offspring. I usually shy away from blaming "society" for anything, because it seems like a pussy excuse, but I must point out something here that IS a sociological disorder: Teenagers are being treated like Adults. I think this is a product of having laws allowing teenagers to be drafted, to vote, to drink, to drive, and a number of other responsibilities that would have astonished the world 50 years ago.



Hmmm..........so, you wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?

I had a teaching degree from college. Do I want to teach anymore? Sure, my classroom, my rules. Question is...can the student and parents handle that?

WTF are "your rules?"

Why do you even ask if "the student and parents handle that?"

As long as you're teaching approve curriculum, and following the school's discipline plan, they have no choice.

1. Do what I tell you to do, when I tell you to do it.
2. Complete all classwork.
3. Treat everyone in class with respect.
4. If you don't understand the subject material ask a question.
5. If you still have trouble, visit the classroom one hour before or after school.
6. Show all your work to your parents, have them sign the work and return it to me.
7. Parents make at least two contacts with me during the term.
8. Failure to follow the rules will result in punishment that will involve working at the school in some type of school or community service. Failure to comply means you are dropped from the course.
9. Try with your best.

 

[Samson]

I had a teaching degree from college. Do I want to teach anymore? Sure, my classroom, my rules. Question is...can the student and parents handle that?

WTF are "your rules?"

Why do you even ask if "the student and parents handle that?"

As long as you're teaching approve curriculum, and following the school's discipline plan, they have no choice.

1. Do what I tell you to do, when I tell you to do it.
2. Complete all classwork.
3. Treat everyone in class with respect.
4. If you don't understand the subject material ask a question.
5. If you still have trouble, visit the classroom one hour before or after school.
6. Show all your work to your parents, have them sign the work and return it to me.
7. Parents make at least two contacts with me during the term.
8. Failure to follow the rules will result in punishment that will involve working at the school in some type of school or community service. Failure to comply means you are dropped from the course.
9. Try with your best.

LOL...#8



"dropped from the course".......now that's funny.

You get that they are forced to be there, right?

 

[manu1959]

28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...

???? How do they define handicapped? 28 percent of the district? Does America have special districts where handicapped kids go? That seems unusually high......

ADD is handicapped....schools get extra funding for mainstreaing "hc" kids....and extr funding for "hc" kids ....so the have incentive to hang an alphabet label on your kid....

 

[PoliticalChic]

To the teachers who are contributing to this thread, today is a day to
celebrate a teacher who stood up for his principles, John Scopes:

1925 - An evolution law, enacted on this day in the great State of Tennessee, made it a crime for a teacher in any state-supported public school or college to teach any theory that contradicted the Bible’s account of man’s creation. Within two months, a Dayton, Tennessee high school science teacher, John T. Scopes was indicted, and later convicted, in the famous ‘Monkey Trial’ for teaching his students the theory of evolution; that man descended from a lower order of animals ... or monkeys. Scopes was fined $100. Defense Attorney Clarence Darrow stated that this was “the first case of its kind since we stopped trying people for witchcraft.”

 

[saveliberty]

WTF are "your rules?"

Why do you even ask if "the student and parents handle that?"

As long as you're teaching approve curriculum, and following the school's discipline plan, they have no choice.

1. Do what I tell you to do, when I tell you to do it.
2. Complete all classwork.
3. Treat everyone in class with respect.
4. If you don't understand the subject material ask a question.
5. If you still have trouble, visit the classroom one hour before or after school.
6. Show all your work to your parents, have them sign the work and return it to me.
7. Parents make at least two contacts with me during the term.
8. Failure to follow the rules will result in punishment that will involve working at the school in some type of school or community service. Failure to comply means you are dropped from the course.
9. Try with your best.

LOL...#8



"dropped from the course".......now that's funny.

You get that they are forced to be there, right?

Maybe in your system they are. You asked what mine was. I told you.

 

[Charles Stucker]

"dropped from the course".......now that's funny.

You get that they are forced to be there, right?

Perhaps that is the problem.
Make school optional with the proviso that anyone who does not matriculate from High school is ineligible for any government assistance ever with a single exception - admission to a home for the mentally retarded, and then only if they are demonstrably incapable of living on their own.

Then up the standards as high as you like and the students will strive to meet the expectations because the parents will drive them. If they don't then they fall out and are not part of the problem - they can work menial jobs fro the rest of their life and never be a burden on the productive members of society because they never get any government benefits. Prison can be viewed as a benefit as the alternative is death or expulsion from the country (the offenders choice, if they can find a country to accept them before judgment is rendered), we could go on in this vein for some time.

This is of course at least partly satire, I'll let the individual reader determine which parts are satire and which are not.

Students misbehavior, including poor performance, must have a consequence, or they are taught only how to be lazy whiners.

 

[Samson]

1. "...Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like."
I have heard similar critiques from many teachers, and there is probably a great deal of experience to this fear.
How about if we take this power out of the hands of administrators, and use a randomized computer program for selection, for assigning classes to teachers?

"Power out of the hands of administrators?"

You guys realise that the administrators are there to supervise teachers, right?

School counsellors set up classes according to a dizzying array of criteria. Administrators have almost nothing to do with fixing which students attend what class.

2. The Obama Administration's "Race to the Top" predicates monetary awards to states that correlate the student scores to the teacher they had.
I think that this is the only real way to rate teacher's ability.
Would this be more fair if the scores were not of one year, but of a set period so that more than one group of children were the basis of tenure decisions?

You're kidding right?

Say you are The Best Teacher In The World.

The Class Bunny, "Bugs" dies during the week of the test.

No one can concentrate on all the Great Things You Have Taugh, because they are knashing teeth, tearing hair in anguish of Bugs' Unfortunate Demise.

Test results say YOU SUCK!

So you're fired.

 

[Samson]

"dropped from the course".......now that's funny.

You get that they are forced to be there, right?

Perhaps that is the problem.
Make school optional with the proviso that anyone who does not matriculate from High school is ineligible for any government assistance ever with a single exception - admission to a home for the mentally retarded, and then only if they are demonstrably incapable of living on their own..

You are correct: Compulsory Education beyond 8th grade IS the MAJOR problem.

After graduating from 8th grade, 15 year olds should have the choice of staying home and watching cartoons, spitting out kids, working, paying to attend college/college prep school, or attending a Public Vocational School (Free).

 

[Dr.Traveler]

“Teaching to the test” is deplored in education circles, although that complaint is easily answered: if the test faithfully mirrors the skills and knowledge set out in the standards, then preparing one’s pupils to ace such a test is an honorable mission!
From “Troublemaker,” by Chester E. Finn, Jr. Former Assistant Secretary of Education under President Reagan.

That sounds good on paper. That's not a smart alleck comeback. I've more to say, but I'm having trouble putting what I've seen in my experience to print in a coherent manner right now.

I'll come back later and take a stab at it after the doctor's office.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Would this be more fair if the scores were not of one year, but of a set period so that more than one group of children were the basis of tenure decisions?

Yes. And I don't mean to totally dismiss student outcomes as a part of a teacher's tenure. Considering the job at the elementary and secondary level is education, that definitely should be part of the analysis. How to assess that is the sticky point, and to be honest I don't think a single "fair" way exists. Any method will have a potential for unfairness, the hope is that a "least unfair" method could be picked.