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Why American children are falling behind
Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
Sorry, my friend, while you and I are usually on the same page, consider the results obtained by KIPP schools or the Pacific Rim Academy, or the Harlem Success Academy, and many similar private and/or charter schools, all of which can be found on Google, and are successful with mainly minority students.
No, the answer is that they have largely jettisoned the progressive approach.
This comes as a shock to me because I'd think US children were one of the brightest groups internationally (I'm not American).
Only those who don't attend public schools.
There you go , this person hates her countrymen so much she is willing to say the vast majority of Americans are stupid.
Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
Actually, asian americans out preform whites in America. They may lag slightly behind in "engrish" but they more than make up for that deficiency in their superiority in math and science. By your logic, if we got removed everyone but asians from the american school system america's statstics would be even better.
Of course I know this because I'm a member. However, Asians make up such a small percentage of the population that their test scores are statistically insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure you knew this, but decided to throw logic to the wind and post your drivel anyway.
Egad this is tiring. So in the interest of not wasting time on those who live in America but seem to think in outer space, please allow me to re-post the following replies and link to original debates. PS I know many many teachers and it sure ain't their problem, and this goes for private schools too where the American kids are just as spacey as their parents.
Post #12 http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
===========
When you make a joke on a noble profession expect an answer.
You miss the point with your constant attempts to pin the blame on others. Sorry reality is so tough for you, but face it this is America when home schooling and Christian schools are praised for reasons that contradict the very purpose of education.
Again this is America, when was the last time you saw any ad or information on TV praising education or the people who work hard at it? When was the last time you saw teachers referred to as professionals. See ? below. Occasionally there are stories on individual people who make a difference but this is bigger than them. Jonathan Kozol is superb.
I have never watched 'Glee' but it appears to me to be about extracurricular activities and not about school. Am I wrong? This is where our values come from or are displayed.
One of our sons taught math in HS and quickly gave it up as most of the children had no interest in the subject and were plainly obnoxious. Math means nothing to a person who can hit a three point shot. Only the advanced classes were a pleasure.
Maybe we need to teach golf, basketball, football, soccer, baseball, and for the 99.5% who won't make a living on any of the above, ditch digging and litter pick ups techniques for the great majority. Oh and whining too, Americans do that well.
The Finland information above demonstrates the whys. Do you think the Fins want to shoot basketballs or kick soccer balls after school or do they study.
In America, vacation and sports activities come before education, ask any teacher. And oddly we are a fat nation, maybe we need to add eating to the curriculum. TV watching would be a biggie too. We can all watch Fox and be sacred and fat and dumb too. Glenn Beck could turn anyone into a retard.
Every American knows a dummy who got rich, why even Gates dropped out of school. These memes, these values are written in our constitution of life. Listen sometime. 'My uncle has a cash store and he makes lots of money, so dats wat I wanna do.'
One teacher asked me to ask the audience here, when was the last time they asked for an 'appointment' with a teacher for a conference concerning their little Joanie (for whatever) or did not just expect the teacher - the professional - to hear their poop on why little Joanie didn't give a fluck about her education or didn't have her homework cause she was too tired. Usually the parents blame the teacher cause little Joanie's grades are sad. Egad, doesn't that sound familiar!
PS I taught too after school more on that maybe later.
A Nation of Morons - TurnOffYourTV.com
Amazon.com: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (9780865714489): John Taylor Gatto, Thomas Moore: Books
Dumbest Generation Home
Amazon.com: High-Tech Heretic: Reflections of a Computer Contrarian (9780385489768): Clifford Stoll: Books
Are children getting dumber? Prospect Magazine
Amazon.com: The Dumbest Generation: How the Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (Or, Don't Trust Anyone Under 30) (9781585426393): Mark Bauerlein: Books
xxxx
Refute what? Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly.
Since we discussed this before often, I raised this question with numerous teachers. So for the sake of clarity - America does not honor, praise, acknowledge, or care about education across a wide spectrum. Find out why that is then get back to us. And while you are at it, figure out why science such as global warming and evolution are still controversial in a presumably intelligent nation.
Asian children do well in the same schools you belittle, so do bright or motivated students. Again why. Maybe because most Americas worship money, sports, image, etc in that order, education comes somewhere down the line possibly just ahead of religion. The youtube above says it pretty clearly.
Re: Finland "Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted. The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org
"At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools."
http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647
Repost: From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka
"I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I dont believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing aboutconstitutional law, for example, or sailinga notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, dont believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers speculation thats so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, thats so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. Way I see it is, a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, its good enough for us.
Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in Gods eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."
Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine
Egad this is tiring. So in the interest of not wasting time on those who live in America but seem to think in outer space, please allow me to re-post the following replies and link to original debates. PS I know many many teachers and it sure ain't their problem, and this goes for private schools too where the American kids are just as spacey as their parents.
Post #12 http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
===========
When you make a joke on a noble profession expect an answer.
You miss the point with your constant attempts to pin the blame on others. Sorry reality is so tough for you, but face it this is America when home schooling and Christian schools are praised for reasons that contradict the very purpose of education.
Again this is America, when was the last time you saw any ad or information on TV praising education or the people who work hard at it? When was the last time you saw teachers referred to as professionals. See ? below. Occasionally there are stories on individual people who make a difference but this is bigger than them. Jonathan Kozol is superb.
I have never watched 'Glee' but it appears to me to be about extracurricular activities and not about school. Am I wrong? This is where our values come from or are displayed.
One of our sons taught math in HS and quickly gave it up as most of the children had no interest in the subject and were plainly obnoxious. Math means nothing to a person who can hit a three point shot. Only the advanced classes were a pleasure.
Maybe we need to teach golf, basketball, football, soccer, baseball, and for the 99.5% who won't make a living on any of the above, ditch digging and litter pick ups techniques for the great majority. Oh and whining too, Americans do that well.
The Finland information above demonstrates the whys. Do you think the Fins want to shoot basketballs or kick soccer balls after school or do they study.
In America, vacation and sports activities come before education, ask any teacher. And oddly we are a fat nation, maybe we need to add eating to the curriculum. TV watching would be a biggie too. We can all watch Fox and be sacred and fat and dumb too. Glenn Beck could turn anyone into a retard.
Every American knows a dummy who got rich, why even Gates dropped out of school. These memes, these values are written in our constitution of life. Listen sometime. 'My uncle has a cash store and he makes lots of money, so dats wat I wanna do.'
One teacher asked me to ask the audience here, when was the last time they asked for an 'appointment' with a teacher for a conference concerning their little Joanie (for whatever) or did not just expect the teacher - the professional - to hear their poop on why little Joanie didn't give a fluck about her education or didn't have her homework cause she was too tired. Usually the parents blame the teacher cause little Joanie's grades are sad. Egad, doesn't that sound familiar!
PS I taught too after school more on that maybe later.
A Nation of Morons - TurnOffYourTV.com
Amazon.com: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (9780865714489): John Taylor Gatto, Thomas Moore: Books
Dumbest Generation Home
Amazon.com: High-Tech Heretic: Reflections of a Computer Contrarian (9780385489768): Clifford Stoll: Books
Are children getting dumber? Prospect Magazine
Amazon.com: The Dumbest Generation: How the Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (Or, Don't Trust Anyone Under 30) (9781585426393): Mark Bauerlein: Books
xxxx
Refute what? Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly.
Since we discussed this before often, I raised this question with numerous teachers. So for the sake of clarity - America does not honor, praise, acknowledge, or care about education across a wide spectrum. Find out why that is then get back to us. And while you are at it, figure out why science such as global warming and evolution are still controversial in a presumably intelligent nation.
Asian children do well in the same schools you belittle, so do bright or motivated students. Again why. Maybe because most Americas worship money, sports, image, etc in that order, education comes somewhere down the line possibly just ahead of religion. The youtube above says it pretty clearly.
Re: Finland "Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted. The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org
"At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools."
http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647
Repost: From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka
"I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I dont believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing aboutconstitutional law, for example, or sailinga notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, dont believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers speculation thats so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, thats so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. Way I see it is, a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, its good enough for us.
Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in Gods eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."
Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine
So, as I sit at your feet to learn, oh great one, am I correct that your analysis is that teachers are great, students are just spacey- in both public school and private schools, and there really is no problem with education in the US....
And the rule of thumb is that studies only find the answer they were looking for, and only lib studies are ethical and objective.
Brilliant, simply brilliant.
And the national bird is the ostrich?
Egad this is tiring. So in the interest of not wasting time on those who live in America but seem to think in outer space, please allow me to re-post the following replies and link to original debates. PS I know many many teachers and it sure ain't their problem, and this goes for private schools too where the American kids are just as spacey as their parents.
Post #12 http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
===========
When you make a joke on a noble profession expect an answer.
You miss the point with your constant attempts to pin the blame on others. Sorry reality is so tough for you, but face it this is America when home schooling and Christian schools are praised for reasons that contradict the very purpose of education.
Again this is America, when was the last time you saw any ad or information on TV praising education or the people who work hard at it? When was the last time you saw teachers referred to as professionals. See ? below. Occasionally there are stories on individual people who make a difference but this is bigger than them. Jonathan Kozol is superb.
I have never watched 'Glee' but it appears to me to be about extracurricular activities and not about school. Am I wrong? This is where our values come from or are displayed.
One of our sons taught math in HS and quickly gave it up as most of the children had no interest in the subject and were plainly obnoxious. Math means nothing to a person who can hit a three point shot. Only the advanced classes were a pleasure.
Maybe we need to teach golf, basketball, football, soccer, baseball, and for the 99.5% who won't make a living on any of the above, ditch digging and litter pick ups techniques for the great majority. Oh and whining too, Americans do that well.
The Finland information above demonstrates the whys. Do you think the Fins want to shoot basketballs or kick soccer balls after school or do they study.
In America, vacation and sports activities come before education, ask any teacher. And oddly we are a fat nation, maybe we need to add eating to the curriculum. TV watching would be a biggie too. We can all watch Fox and be sacred and fat and dumb too. Glenn Beck could turn anyone into a retard.
Every American knows a dummy who got rich, why even Gates dropped out of school. These memes, these values are written in our constitution of life. Listen sometime. 'My uncle has a cash store and he makes lots of money, so dats wat I wanna do.'
One teacher asked me to ask the audience here, when was the last time they asked for an 'appointment' with a teacher for a conference concerning their little Joanie (for whatever) or did not just expect the teacher - the professional - to hear their poop on why little Joanie didn't give a fluck about her education or didn't have her homework cause she was too tired. Usually the parents blame the teacher cause little Joanie's grades are sad. Egad, doesn't that sound familiar!
PS I taught too after school more on that maybe later.
A Nation of Morons - TurnOffYourTV.com
Amazon.com: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (9780865714489): John Taylor Gatto, Thomas Moore: Books
Dumbest Generation Home
Amazon.com: High-Tech Heretic: Reflections of a Computer Contrarian (9780385489768): Clifford Stoll: Books
Are children getting dumber? Prospect Magazine
Amazon.com: The Dumbest Generation: How the Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (Or, Don't Trust Anyone Under 30) (9781585426393): Mark Bauerlein: Books
xxxx
Refute what? Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly.
Since we discussed this before often, I raised this question with numerous teachers. So for the sake of clarity - America does not honor, praise, acknowledge, or care about education across a wide spectrum. Find out why that is then get back to us. And while you are at it, figure out why science such as global warming and evolution are still controversial in a presumably intelligent nation.
Asian children do well in the same schools you belittle, so do bright or motivated students. Again why. Maybe because most Americas worship money, sports, image, etc in that order, education comes somewhere down the line possibly just ahead of religion. The youtube above says it pretty clearly.
Re: Finland "Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted. The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org
"At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools."
http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647
Repost: From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka
"I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I dont believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing aboutconstitutional law, for example, or sailinga notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, dont believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers speculation thats so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, thats so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. Way I see it is, a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, its good enough for us.
Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in Gods eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."
Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine
So, as I sit at your feet to learn, oh great one, am I correct that your analysis is that teachers are great, students are just spacey- in both public school and private schools, and there really is no problem with education in the US....
And the rule of thumb is that studies only find the answer they were looking for, and only lib studies are ethical and objective.
Brilliant, simply brilliant.
And the national bird is the ostrich?
Note to Truthmatters:
PC is making a joke about the Ostrich being the National Bird.
28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...
???? How do they define handicapped? 28 percent of the district? Does America have special districts where handicapped kids go? That seems unusually high......
It can be anything from a minor speech impediment to bipolar disorder to blindness. Our numbers are unusually high. Severely handicapped kids go to alternative schools which average around $60K per student with transportation and related services. The rest are educated in regular schools but all test scores are attached to their neighborhood school, regardless of where they actually go.
I attribute our high numbers to substance abuse/child abuse. No coincidence there. Much of the damage is done in utero; and the rest is probably a result of neglect in the early years. Most druggies just want someone to feed and watch their kids for seven hours. If they learn something, great. If not, that's ok too. Welfare and/or seasonal unemployment isn't anything to be ashamed of anymore. It's a career choice for many which requires no skills or education and has a very lucrative health insurance plan.
Schools are for students that want to improve their circumstances and become contributing members of society. There is little incentive to do that anymore.
But I take these stats with a grain of salt. We are not comparing apples to apples even within our own country. There are still many, many brilliant kids coming out of our public high schools. These kids have families and communities that value education. No coincidence there either.
The whole public school system is broke
The whole public school system is broke
Actually:
The numbers of educated Americans has been rising since 1950.
Educated? Most people who graduated the eighth grade in the 1950s have better math and reading skills than today's high school graduates. Lowering the bar makes your graph look better and that is it. You realize this right? Maybe your just a victim of new math. I know they skim over how to make a graph now.
Just because people like you and me can achieve dispite a broke elementary and secondary school system, isn't an endorsement of the system. I was fairly specific on what I saw as shortcomings of the system. Do you care to debate them? I do find you make great posts most of the time. Perhaps this is a case of we agree to disagree.
Create a system that rewards those with merit and has consequences for those who fail. That covers all of the above parties.
Just because people like you and me can achieve dispite a broke elementary and secondary school system, isn't an endorsement of the system. I was fairly specific on what I saw as shortcomings of the system. Do you care to debate them? I do find you make great posts most of the time. Perhaps this is a case of we agree to disagree.
The whole public school system is broke
Actually:
The numbers of educated Americans has been rising since 1950.
The whole public school system is broke
Actually:
The numbers of educated Americans has been rising since 1950.
A more accurate measurement would be a comparison of international exams and where our students line up versus those of other nations.
Schools no longer have the luxury of recruiting the best and brightest to be teachers. Before women's liberation the big professional careers were nursing and teaching, so the teaching field could choose from among the very best. That is no longer the case and effective teaching is difficult, made more so by endless government mandated paperwork (of no value) which drives away those who would otherwise make good teachers..
At the same time crack babies, Down's Syndrome children and countless other 'special needs' children flood the classes because of the moronic 'No Child Left Behind' policy. Couple that with administrations which limit teachers to failing no more than one student per class (otherwise you're not teaching effectively) and the result is clear. Two brain damaged kids hold back the entire class as no one has to exceed their level of ability. I have no desire to deny the mentally handicapped a chance at whatever education they can obtain, but when it impacts all the other students then I object..
Teaching at academia suffers from "the latest thing" because the drive to produce new ideas for dissertations guarantees crackpot theories that only work for unusual individuals filter into mainstream educational repertoire; this is so successful that many modern teachers will argue the method the Red Cross uses to teach swimming is not applicable to the classroom. Even though that same methodology was used throughout the latter 19th century..
Several other problems exist; unconcerned parents, gangs, drugs, cell phones (and texting), lawyers pushing suits when schools try to instill any level of discipline in rowdy brats, and inept politicians attempting to direct from the national level when schools are best handled at the local level..
The solution to the problem is to force the politicians and lawyers out of the classroom, break the NEA and remake it from better material, get parents interested in their kids, and hold students to standards. If that means little Johnny has to repeat third grade, then Johnny gets held back.
Education, like many social "sciences" faces a particular limitation on testing theories; it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories. Too often the "theory" which is now touted was a success only because of the particular combination of teacher, administration and students. When it is applied by the masses of teachers it only results in confusion; something along the lines of the military axiom- Order, Counter Order, Disorder.One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.
No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.Hmmm..........so, you wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?
No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.
