You should do that instead of what you are doing. I'll keep tapping into the power of the Almighty.
Zone1 Who Say That They are Jews and are Not
- Thread starter norwegen
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Did Jesus foretell the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple?....most certainly. And the wickedness of that generation?...most certainly.
But, Josephus is not God. And he doesn't know of all the destructions and wickedness the world produced before him. And he also doesn't say 'ever shall be', because he doesn't know the future.
Jesus did foretell the destruction of the Jerusalem and the Temple. But He also foretold a much greater destruction to come...the Tribulation.
When you say, "Josephus recalled the grand, unified vision of the prophets" concerning what Josephus said, "...but as for that house, God had for certain long ago doomed it to the fire...", you give a very generalized statement concerning the prophets.
Josephus said 'long ago doomed it to the fire'. Where is this 'unified vision of the prophets? Is he talking of a prophet, the prophets, or Jesus?
The prophets in the Old Testament do have a 'unified vision', as you say. They speak of warnings and judgements to come upon Israel, the Tribulation which will be the last. But, they also always say, God will not completely ever destroy Israel. Ever. He will fulfill His promises to her through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc. etc. She will be a light to the Gentiles and the Gentiles will come to God through her.
Perhaps you should go and read the Old Testament prophets.
Quantrill
norwegen
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Um, that "much greater destruction" was the destruction of Jerusalem. The entire temple schema was utterly destroyed. It never recovered. Never. No other tribulation like that would ever impact the Jews again. Ever.
Jesus was right. And so was Josephus.
Israel's prophets frequently envisioned Israel's doom. Some even envisioned her doom in a fire, however vaguely.
And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh (Is 66:24).
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord;
remove the foreskin of your hearts,
O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem;
lest my wrath go forth like fire,
and burn with none to quench it,
because of the evil of your deeds (Jer 4:4).
I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth,
blood and fire and columns of smoke (Jl 2:30).
Seek the LORD and live,
or He will sweep like fire through the house of Joseph;
it will devour everything,
with no one at Bethel to extinguish it (Amos 5:6).
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them (Mal 4:1).
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord;
remove the foreskin of your hearts,
O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem;
lest my wrath go forth like fire,
and burn with none to quench it,
because of the evil of your deeds (Jer 4:4).
I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth,
blood and fire and columns of smoke (Jl 2:30).
Seek the LORD and live,
or He will sweep like fire through the house of Joseph;
it will devour everything,
with no one at Bethel to extinguish it (Amos 5:6).
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them (Mal 4:1).
Perhaps you should read the prophets.
BackAgain
Neutronium Member & truth speaker #StopBrandon
Nope. You’re dishonest and ignorant and you’ve made your own pointless.
BreezeWood
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paradoxal self delusion ...
BreezeWood
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(selfishness), though resentful is entirely the jews's self made dream. not entirely religious christian persecution is another misgiving they fester in with their own resentments for the community et al.
BreezeWood
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never ...
jesus is the reiteration of heavens goal - to triumph good vs evil - the means to acquire heavenly judgement to free ones spirit ...
only one triumph leads to tribulation, as desert dwellers would be best advised to change their ways - the other triumph is what is the goal of jesus and those others that gave their lives during that time even w/ the failure that did occur.
Yet Jesus says otherwise. (Matt. 24:15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand"
No abomination stood in the Temple of 70 A.D. Which means that which Daniel spake of pertains to the future, as Christ warned them of a future day. (Matt. 24:3-31) speaks to the future Tribulation. (Luke 21:12-24 speaks to the destruction of 70 A.D. and the Temple.
Josephus was no prophet. He was a 'historian' at best. As I said, he didn't know all things in the past, nor anything of the future. He wrote concerning the 70 A.D. destruction of the Jews and the Temple.
Well, I already said the prophets prophesied of Israel's destruction and judgement from God. Yet you ignore what I also said which is that God will restore Israel. He will never completely destroy her. He will honor his promises to her. She shall be His people and He their God.
Concerning the verse in (Isaiah 66:24) that you cite: You should read more carefully. (Is. 66:24) is not talking about Israel. It is talking about those in the Kingdom who have despised and transgressed against the LORD. That is not Israel in that day.
(Is. 66:7) "Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came she was delivered of a manchild." Who is being addressed?
(Is. 66:8-9) "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD; shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God."
(Is. 66:10) "Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:"
(Is. 66:12-13) "For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles, like a flowing stream...As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
(Is. 66:15-16) "For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many."
(Is. 66:17) "They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh...shall be consumed together, saith the LORD."
(Is. 66:19) "And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations...to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
(Is. 66:22) "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain."
(Is. 66:23) "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Then comes the verse you cite in (Is. 66:24) "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abomination unto all flesh."
In that day the children of Israel will be a light to the Gentiles bringing them to God. And as they go up to Jerusalem to worship the LORD, they will see the carcasses of all those who God has destroyed who transgressed against Him. But the nation of Israel has repented and has been preserved by God and is a light unto the nations.
I will address your other verses later.
Quantrill
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norwegen
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Well, God didn't restore Israel, did he. You know, breach of covenant and all. And Isaiah is about Israel.
Yet you ignore what I say. So, I didn't read past that part. It's probably littered with profanities anyway. You know, because you're so Christ-like.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Other organizations didn't engage in decade long attempts to hide pedophile clergy.
Heck, even when I went to HS, there would always be one of the "Brothers" who got "reassigned" after a short time.
When your recruiting pitch is 'Must have no interest in adult women, willing to spend time with kids", the only thing that got missed in that was advertising in NAMbLA monthly.
Naw, if I screw something up, I'll take the blame.
Not yet. But He will. So says the Scripture.
I didn't ignore anything you said. I just showed your misuse of Scripture. Where did you ever get the idea that (Is. 66:24) was against Israel? The book of (Isaiah) is just like I said. It is full of the judgement of God against Israel, and then the promise of God to redeem and restore her. Just read it.
Oh gee, does my language hurt your feelings. Sounds like an excuse.
Quantrill
norwegen
Concerning (Jeremiah 4:4) "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench, because of the evil of your doings."
Jeremiah was a prophet in Judah giving warnings to the Jews and Israel of the coming judgement from God by the Babylonians. He constantly chastised them for their turning away from God. And he constantly encouraged their return to God. In (Jer. 4:4) the destruction by Babylon had not yet come, and Jeremiah tried to have the Jews repent and avoid the coming judgement.
(Jer. 1:1-2) "The words of Jeremiah...To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah...."
(Jer. 1:9) "Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth, And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth."
(Jer. 2:5-6) "Thus saith the LORD, What iniquity have your fathers found in me, that they are gone far from me, and have walked after vanity, and are become vain? Neither say they, "Where is the LORD that brought us up out of the land of Egypt...."
(Jer. 2:8) "The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit."
(Jer. 3:8) "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."
The sins of Judah permeated even the priesthood. They too turned away from God, which is why the prophet of God, Jeremiah, was sent. Yet for all this, God still pleads with Judah to repent and turn back to Him.
(Jer. 3:12-13) "...Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you...and I will not keep anger for ever."
(Jer. 3:14) "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion."
And God then promises that when Israel does repent, she will be restored.
(Jer. 3:17) "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."
But Israel/Judah would not return at Jeremiah's preaching in that day. And thus the Babylonians came and slaughtered the Jews and destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews. And that which God promised in (Jer. 4:4) did come upon the Jews. But that is never the end with Israel.
(Jer. 23:3) "And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their fold; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
(Jer. 23:7-8) "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, the LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land."
This is the unified vision of the prophets of Israel. They warn of judgement to come upon disobedient Israel. They encourage Israel to repent. Israel does not and the judgement comes. But then the promise of God that Israel shall be restored. She shall be all that He has promised to her. And the constant pleas of the prophets to return to Him, to God. Not just to turn back to the land, but to turn back to God.
Quantrill
Concerning (Jeremiah 4:4) "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench, because of the evil of your doings."
Jeremiah was a prophet in Judah giving warnings to the Jews and Israel of the coming judgement from God by the Babylonians. He constantly chastised them for their turning away from God. And he constantly encouraged their return to God. In (Jer. 4:4) the destruction by Babylon had not yet come, and Jeremiah tried to have the Jews repent and avoid the coming judgement.
(Jer. 1:1-2) "The words of Jeremiah...To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah...."
(Jer. 1:9) "Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth, And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth."
(Jer. 2:5-6) "Thus saith the LORD, What iniquity have your fathers found in me, that they are gone far from me, and have walked after vanity, and are become vain? Neither say they, "Where is the LORD that brought us up out of the land of Egypt...."
(Jer. 2:8) "The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit."
(Jer. 3:8) "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."
The sins of Judah permeated even the priesthood. They too turned away from God, which is why the prophet of God, Jeremiah, was sent. Yet for all this, God still pleads with Judah to repent and turn back to Him.
(Jer. 3:12-13) "...Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you...and I will not keep anger for ever."
(Jer. 3:14) "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion."
And God then promises that when Israel does repent, she will be restored.
(Jer. 3:17) "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."
But Israel/Judah would not return at Jeremiah's preaching in that day. And thus the Babylonians came and slaughtered the Jews and destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews. And that which God promised in (Jer. 4:4) did come upon the Jews. But that is never the end with Israel.
(Jer. 23:3) "And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their fold; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
(Jer. 23:7-8) "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, the LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land."
This is the unified vision of the prophets of Israel. They warn of judgement to come upon disobedient Israel. They encourage Israel to repent. Israel does not and the judgement comes. But then the promise of God that Israel shall be restored. She shall be all that He has promised to her. And the constant pleas of the prophets to return to Him, to God. Not just to turn back to the land, but to turn back to God.
Quantrill
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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Don't be naive. If you're not being naive, then pull your head up out of the sand.
BreezeWood
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that would be denying their corruption, christianity from the very beginning the 4th century ...
or believing forced celibacy is heavenly w/ all its consequences. meriweather, just a bystander.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Except what the Church did has been heavily documented.
The rest is just conspiracy theories.
Did you find that dungeon under the pizza place yet?
Yes, God promised judgement upon Israel in the book of (Amos). Just like the other prophets did also. But he gives them opportunity to repent. (Amos 5:4) "For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, See ye me, and ye shall live."
And, in the very verse you use to condemn Israel, God first says, "Seek the LORD, and ye shall live...." (Amos 5:6)
Final warning of judgement to come. (Amos 9:9-10) "For, lo, I will command and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."
But then, the promise of restoration for Israel.
(Amos 9:11) "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins and I will build it as in the days of old:"
(Amos 9:14) "And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them."
(Amos 9:15) "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."
This is the unified vision of the prophets in the Old Testament. Warnings of judgement to come. Opportunity to repent. Then the judgement comes. Then the promise of Israel's restoration. God is always very clear. He will not forever forsake His people Israel. He shall establish her as the head of the nations of the world. A light unto the Gentiles.
Just read the prophets.
It is all for a future day...yet maybe not so far into the future.
Quantrill
Concerning (Mal. 4:1):
Yes, there is judgement promised against the Jews/Israel in (Malachi). Malachi was a post-exilic prophet, meaning after the Babylonian captivity.
Though the prophet pronounces judgement upon Israel, note how the LORD begins. (Mal. 1:1-2) "The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD...."
Then the LORD brings hard questions to the priests of Israel. (Mal. 1:6) "A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name...."
(Mal. 2:1) "And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you."
(Mal. 2:7-9) "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law."
The Jews today who boast of their 'Judaism' should take note of (Malachi), for he is describing the Judaism of his day. And to God, it is corrupt. Read it all.
But still God promises blessings to Israel if she repents. (Mal. 3:10) "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse...and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
Then in (Mal. 4:1) that future day of final judgement upon Israel, the Tribulation, is being addressed by God. Also called the Day of the LORD. "For behold the day cometh..."
But though there will be judgement there God will preserve the believing Jews who will then make up the nation of believing Israel. (Mal. 4;5-6) "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
This is the unified vision of the prophets of Israel. A call to repentance. Judgement to follow when disobeyed. But never a complete destruction of Israel. The promise of deliverance is always there. Israel will be a light to the Gentile nations.
Quantrill
What is it that you believe Jews today should do?
God's call to the Jews today is the same as it was in the Old Testament. Repent. Return to the God who loved and chose you. Return and be the chosen nation God created you for.
The same that John the Baptist preached. (Matt. 3:1-3) The same that Jesus preached. (Matt. 4:17) The same the disciples preached. (Matt. 10: 6-7) And today this repentance involves their killing of Jesus Christ Whom God has sent. See (Acts 2:22-36)
(Acts 2:37-40) "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do.
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
Quantrill
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