Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Sixties Fan]

Each group that wants to be recognized as a "people" has to make a case for it first - you can't just negate them automatically based on the premise they will eventually swallow a land. In fact, that isn't happening. No other group is fighting for same territories or claiming any rights.

Can you clarify what you mean by this. I'm not sure I understand and don't want to assume.

Well...who decides when a people is a people? I don't know. I think each group that wants that recognition must make a case for it. I guess self identitification is a major part of it. Despite the seeming ease of it we don't have hundreds of groups clammering for recognition and rights. Does that clarify at all?

Not really. Let me clarify my concern.

My concern is that we make new people over and over and over until the OTHER people still exist, but no longer have any territory to claim.

It would be like the Irish claiming a part of the US. And the British. And the French. And the Scots. And the Germans. And the Dutch. And they claim so much land, there is none left over for the First Nations People.

But what do you do when both people's have roots extending back thousand or more years?

I don't see how it would be like the Irish claiming part of the US - no portion of their heritage is there...

In reality, the Arab people do not have a "heritage" in the land of Israel.
They, as usual, built a Mosque on top of the other culture's church or synagogue, or temple, in order to erase their history.

The Jewish Holy Places were never sacred to Muslims during the whole 1300 years they came and went, or stayed.
Jerusalem was never important to them, until Israel became Independent and they took the Jewish Quarter away from Israel in 1948. And Judea and Samaria were never important, either.

They call the Temple Mount the "third holiest" in Islam.
But mostly what they do is play soccer, have picnics, throw rocks at Jews, bring weapons and bombs into their own mosques to use against the Jews, etc, etc.

They did nothing but destroy synagogues, the Jewish cemetery and anything else they could from 1948 to 1967 while they had those parts in their hands, and not allow Jews and Christians any rights to go to their holy sites. As they had been doing for the past 1300 years, one Muslim group or another.

Some Muslims were nice and did the right thing, like allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem in the 7th Century. They are very few and far between.

As you say, the Irish, and the Germans and all other Europeans and Asian who came to the Americas do not really have a heritage going back as far back as the First Nations of those lands.

It is the same thing with the Arabs, the Turks, the British, the Greeks, etc.
Unlike the Americas, the Arabs did not create Nations, they do consider themselves ONE nation, and Islam is one Nation as well.
All the world is, or will be Muslim, with no separation, no borders.
That is how they think.

Which is why they will say it on videos, etc, that they are one people.
No difference between them, as there usually is between the Germans, French, Russians, Maoris, Hawaiians, etc.

They are Arabs, speak Arabic and belong to one Nation. A Muslim, Arab Nation.

If it is possible to understand.

 

[Coyote]

No, they weren't "equal" but equality was not a value in those times.

But you are bringing it up NOW as though it has relevance NOW and should be part of the discussion. You claimed that "Jews and Muslims got along historically". Now you admit that that historic "getting along" was based on a system of INEQUALITY. So why are you bringing up an historical inequality as a plus for your arguments. It seems to me just the opposite. It seems to me to be saying that Jews and Muslims would CONTINUE to get along -- if only Jews would go back to accepting the inequality and oppression of history.

Hold on a second. You are cherry picking what I said.

This was what I said originally - I did not change anything or "now" say anything different:

On how Muslims feel about Jewish people - Muslims and Jews largely got along historically. Was it a 20th century relationship of human rights, religious tolerance and democratic values? Of course not - that did not exist in any culture of those eras. It sucked to be the minority religions/ethnicities (and sucked worse to be a woman). But Jews in many areas flourished in ways they could not in Christian Europe.​

It's not a "plus" OR a negative. You can't take things out of historical context - what we value today did not exist centuries ago. So yes - it is relative. Those values did not exist then.

You said: It seems to me to be saying that Jews and Muslims would CONTINUE to get along -- if only Jews would go back to accepting the inequality and oppression of history.

I am not saying that AT ALL. You are putting your own spin on it. When you claim historic anti-semitism, I am pointing out that no, it wasn't - most of the Islamic anti-semitism occurred in the twentieth century. Inequality isn't antisemitism - Christians were treated the same in Islamic countires and Muslims were treated the same as Jews in Christian countries.

 

[Shusha]

It may be we have differing definitions of "benign" - I'm using it to mean with out violent coercion.

Yes. We are using different definitions. Coercion, by definition is not benign. It doesn't have to be violent to be malignant. Date rape may not be violent. But it certainly isn't benign. "Have sex with me or I'll fire you" is not violent, but it sure isn't benign. "I will give you the starring role in my movie only if you have sex with me" isn't violent, but it sure isn't benign.

Benign can only happen in a society of equality and compassion.

 

[Coyote]

But what do you do when both people's have roots extending back thousand or more years?

I don't see how it would be like the Irish claiming part of the US - no portion of their heritage is there...

Be clear here. Either people who immigrate to a land have some sort of claim "extending back X number of years" or they don't. You gotta pick. You can't have it both ways.

Either the Irish have developed an attachment to American soil and thus have rights to sovereignty on it. Or the Irish, no matter how long they have lived here, will never have rights to sovereignty here.

Choose.

Well the all Palestinians didn't immigrate. Their ancestors have been there as long as they know. Excluding those who were known to have immigrated.

Arabs originate from Arabia They’re descendants of immigrants

Yes dear.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Most acknowledge that there is no difference between Palestinians and Jordanians and Syrians. That they are one people. They self-identify as one people.

That is NOT what team Israel are saying. No one on team Israel is saying that the Palestinians can't have a State of any kind on any territory. Not even Joel is saying that. Joel is simply saying that the Arab Palestinians shouldn't have yet ANOTHER State or three on territory that was granted to the Jewish people.

First I want to apologize for the scarcity of my answers as I am relying on my phone and it sucks to type and produces a ton of typos. I would rather be more verbose snd use sources. Tonight i will try to be on the computer.

Second i want clarify a few things.

The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity.

When you are saying they should not have another state on the territory granted to Jews what exactly do you mean? They should go to Africa...South America? Or shift tbem to Jordan and Syria? See I havent seen Joel state snything beyond denying them any rights of place or identity. It isnt too disimilar to the ways that Myanmar is erasing the Rohinga identity (without the murder and violence Myanmar is conducting) banning even the word. They are nobody. A people with no name or citizenship. I see a systemic effort to deny the Palestinians an identity.

If what you mean is the territory that is currently recognized as Israel then i agree with you. There is Gaza and the West Bank (exactly what parts to be negotiated) then that is reasonable as many will still be in the area where they have cultural and familial ties.

There is a very significant difference between "You can not have a State ANYWHERE on this territory (or anywhere in the world) because you do not exist" and saying, "You can't have a State HERE because this is the place for the Jewish people, but you can have one THERE because that is the place for the Arab Palestinian people".

Agree.

The equivalent would be for team Israel to say, "The Arab Palestinians can not have a State anywhere in the world because they do not exist." (And we are going to stay at war with them until their State is destroyed.)

Is anyone saying the Jews can not have state anywhere in the world?

THAT is a fascinating question. Actually, I think the question should be reversed. When does a people cease to belong to a broad cultural group (a people)? Is self-identification the ONLY criteria? Or is there some requirement for some sort of significant cultural change or difference? If yes, what criteria would you choose?

Great questions...and i am not sure I have an answer but it deserves a post of its own and fits into the topic perfectly. I am going to answer this part later.


All these are great discussion points so i sill answer them later when i am not so constrained!

Coyote, with all due respect:

"The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity."


You are confusing the people.

The Jews have been in, if one prefers to call it, Palestine.
They are the Palestinians the Romans changed the name into Syria Palestinia.

The Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the same ethnicity of Arabs who invaded the area in the 7th century, while Jews were still living there, and continued to live there. The Arabs did not call the Jews or any other people of the area "Palestinians".

The idea of calling Jews and Arabs, Druze, etc Palestinians, came from the British Mandate for Palestine (it should have been called after Israel, but it was not)

Not being able to stop the descendants of the ancient Jews from recreating their ancient nation, or destroy it after 1948, the Arabs leaders - Arafat - decided to adopt the identity of Palestinians, in 1964.

That was not because they wanted to create a State called Palestine because they identified as such. It was to continue to try to destroy Israel.

And these facts seem to be something you cannot absorb and think about.

Since the first Arab riot in 1920, the Jewish leaders have been able to share the land. 78 % was taken without asking the Jews and given to the Hashemites.
In 1937 the Jewish leaders agreed to a partition for Jews and Arabs.
What were they in the middle of? Did the Arab leaders accept?

The same thing for 1947 and the UN proposed partition.

Q: If the Arab leaders so identify with a Palestinian identity, and I am not speaking about the rest of the population, why are they so intent in destroying Israel in order to have their State on top of it?

I'm not confusing anyone Sixties...but you are mixing issues. Let's stick to one argument at the time.

Are the Palestinian a "people" - at this point in time? Yes.

Do they have a heritage and roots in those lands they inhabit? Yes.

You say they are nothing more than Arab invaders. Think on this a moment. The Arab culture and Muslim religion spread widely - by conquest and also by benign conversion as with most religions. The people who lived there - what of them? Did they automatically disappear? No. They converted, intermarried, whatever - but they are the same people who's ancestors were Christians, Jews and pagans and who farmed those same lands and grazed their herds. Those - plus immigrants from other Arab countries are who the Palestinians are today. Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other. So saying they are nothing more than Arab invaders is dishonest.

"Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other."

Sorry, but genetic studies do not support what you are saying.

What you are saying comes from allegations, and not from actual DNA tests done on some Palestinians to see if they are closely related to Jews. These genetic studies have been debunked and it does not help for people who do not know that they are false, to keep repeating them.

They are more than Arab invaders. Some clans have been there for a thousand years.

But that is not the issue.

The issue is how Islam views Jews. What rights does Islam gives to Jews. What rights Islam has ever given to Jews for the past 1400 years, which is something which some people truly cannot understand.

It has led to 1300 years of oppression.
It has led to 100 years of rejection of any sovereignty for Jews on their ancient homeland.

The conflict is as basic as that.

Islam has replaced Judaism and they tell the Jews what rights they have.

You assume that the Jewish people after the 7th century converted to Islam, or Christianity. They did not, unless forced to.

Records show that the Jewish presence was constant, with Jews always returning to their ancient homeland, and even more so in the 19th century.

Arabs are not mainly invaders, like all the others. As Muslims they do believe that any land they have conquered will always remain under Islam, no matter which group. That is why one does not have any wars between the Turks and the Arabs for the 500 years of the Ottoman Empire.

All of these Muslims and Christian Arabs who have roots on the Land of Israel, born there, can live there. As I have said before, Jews never meant to expel them but to live with them in peace if possible.
The Al-Husseini clan chose otherwise and won the leadership of the Arab people by force.

I will say it again.
Get rid of the Arab leaders of today, sometime in the future, and peace will be possible.
No Iran, no Qatar, no other Arab or Muslim country meddling between the Israelis and Palestinians negotiating and wanting peace, and it will happen as it did with Egypt and Jordan.

Someday, who knows

Where has this been debunked?

Where does it come from? Which source?

 

[Shusha]

Hold on a second. You are cherry picking what I said.

This was what I said originally - I did not change anything or "now" say anything different:

On how Muslims feel about Jewish people - Muslims and Jews largely got along historically. Was it a 20th century relationship of human rights, religious tolerance and democratic values? Of course not - that did not exist in any culture of those eras. It sucked to be the minority religions/ethnicities (and sucked worse to be a woman). But Jews in many areas flourished in ways they could not in Christian Europe.​

It's not a "plus" OR a negative. You can't take things out of historical context - what we value today did not exist centuries ago. So yes - it is relative. Those values did not exist then.

You brought it up because you thought it was relevant. So, HOW is it relevant? When you say, "Muslims and Jews got along historically" -- how is that relevant to today and our topic?

 

[Coyote]

Each group that wants to be recognized as a "people" has to make a case for it first - you can't just negate them automatically based on the premise they will eventually swallow a land. In fact, that isn't happening. No other group is fighting for same territories or claiming any rights.

Can you clarify what you mean by this. I'm not sure I understand and don't want to assume.

Well...who decides when a people is a people? I don't know. I think each group that wants that recognition must make a case for it. I guess self identitification is a major part of it. Despite the seeming ease of it we don't have hundreds of groups clammering for recognition and rights. Does that clarify at all?

Not really. Let me clarify my concern.

My concern is that we make new people over and over and over until the OTHER people still exist, but no longer have any territory to claim.

It would be like the Irish claiming a part of the US. And the British. And the French. And the Scots. And the Germans. And the Dutch. And they claim so much land, there is none left over for the First Nations People.

But what do you do when both people's have roots extending back thousand or more years?

I don't see how it would be like the Irish claiming part of the US - no portion of their heritage is there...

In reality, the Arab people do not have a "heritage" in the land of Israel.
They, as usual, built a Mosque on top of the other culture's church or synagogue, or temple, in order to erase their history.

The Jewish Holy Places were never sacred to Muslims during the whole 1300 years they came and went, or stayed.
Jerusalem was never important to them, until Israel became Independent and they took the Jewish Quarter away from Israel in 1948. And Judea and Samaria were never important, either.

They call the Temple Mount the "third holiest" in Islam.
But mostly what they do is play soccer, have picnics, throw rocks at Jews, bring weapons and bombs into their own mosques to use against the Jews, etc, etc.

They did nothing but destroy synagogues, the Jewish cemetery and anything else they could from 1948 to 1967 while they had those parts in their hands, and not allow Jews and Christians any rights to go to their holy sites. As they had been doing for the past 1300 years, one Muslim group or another.

Some Muslims were nice and did the right thing, like allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem in the 7th Century. They are very few and far between.

As you say, the Irish, and the Germans and all other Europeans and Asian who came to the Americas do not really have a heritage going back as far back as the First Nations of those lands.

It is the same thing with the Arabs, the Turks, the British, the Greeks, etc.
Unlike the Americas, the Arabs did not create Nations, they do consider themselves ONE nation, and Islam is one Nation as well.
All the world is, or will be Muslim, with no separation, no borders.
That is how they think.

Which is why they will say it on videos, etc, that they are one people.
No difference between them, as there usually is between the Germans, French, Russians, Maoris, Hawaiians, etc.

They are Arabs, speak Arabic and belong to one Nation. A Muslim, Arab Nation.

If it is possible to understand.

Palestinians - Wikipedia
The Palestinian people (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني‎‎, ash-sha‘b al-Filasṭīnī), also referred to as Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيون‎‎, al-Filasṭīniyyūn, Hebrew: פָלַסְטִינִים‎) or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: العربي الفلسطيني‎‎, al-'arabi il-filastini), are an ethnonational group[29][30][31][32][33][34][35] comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, including Jews and Samaritans, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab

 

[Shusha]

most of the Islamic anti-semitism occurred in the twentieth century.

No. Anti-semitism has been a continuous problem since antiquity. It is not a modern phenomena. It changed with the importation of specifically Christian forms of anti-semitism. But "Jews are apes and pigs" is specifically Islamic and originated far longer than 100 years ago.

 

[Sixties Fan]

But what do you do when both people's have roots extending back thousand or more years?

I don't see how it would be like the Irish claiming part of the US - no portion of their heritage is there...

Be clear here. Either people who immigrate to a land have some sort of claim "extending back X number of years" or they don't. You gotta pick. You can't have it both ways.

Either the Irish have developed an attachment to American soil and thus have rights to sovereignty on it. Or the Irish, no matter how long they have lived here, will never have rights to sovereignty here.

Choose.

Well the all Palestinians didn't immigrate. Their ancestors have been there as long as they know. Excluding those who were known to have immigrated.

"Well the all Palestinians didn't immigrate. Their ancestors have been there as long as they know."

Sorry, no. The "Palestinians" know that they have "been there" since the Arabs invaded in the 7th Century. They are Arabs. They are not made up of any other group.
All of them immigrated, or were born there afterwards, at some point or another for the past 1300 years before 1948.
There was a greater immigration of Arabs at the end of the 19th century because of Ottoman tumult and because Jews were creating Jobs on their ancient homeland, and they wanted a better life.

None of those who immigrated between 1892 and 1948 had any idea that eventually future Arab leaders would not agree to a State next to a Jewish one, and would not allow them to have a normal life and education, if ever was possible, while Israel existed.

Again, you are repeating things you have read somewhere which have no foundation on facts.

The Arabs are saying that they, as Palestinians, have been on the land since time immemorial. It is totally non factual. Most, unless travelers, etc, were living on the Arabian Peninsula and remained there until the 7th century CE when Islam was founded, and conquest became their main ideology and they immigrated to many parts of Asia, North Africa and Europe at the same time conquering the lands they crossed.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Can you clarify what you mean by this. I'm not sure I understand and don't want to assume.

Well...who decides when a people is a people? I don't know. I think each group that wants that recognition must make a case for it. I guess self identitification is a major part of it. Despite the seeming ease of it we don't have hundreds of groups clammering for recognition and rights. Does that clarify at all?

Not really. Let me clarify my concern.

My concern is that we make new people over and over and over until the OTHER people still exist, but no longer have any territory to claim.

It would be like the Irish claiming a part of the US. And the British. And the French. And the Scots. And the Germans. And the Dutch. And they claim so much land, there is none left over for the First Nations People.

But what do you do when both people's have roots extending back thousand or more years?

I don't see how it would be like the Irish claiming part of the US - no portion of their heritage is there...

In reality, the Arab people do not have a "heritage" in the land of Israel.
They, as usual, built a Mosque on top of the other culture's church or synagogue, or temple, in order to erase their history.

The Jewish Holy Places were never sacred to Muslims during the whole 1300 years they came and went, or stayed.
Jerusalem was never important to them, until Israel became Independent and they took the Jewish Quarter away from Israel in 1948. And Judea and Samaria were never important, either.

They call the Temple Mount the "third holiest" in Islam.
But mostly what they do is play soccer, have picnics, throw rocks at Jews, bring weapons and bombs into their own mosques to use against the Jews, etc, etc.

They did nothing but destroy synagogues, the Jewish cemetery and anything else they could from 1948 to 1967 while they had those parts in their hands, and not allow Jews and Christians any rights to go to their holy sites. As they had been doing for the past 1300 years, one Muslim group or another.

Some Muslims were nice and did the right thing, like allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem in the 7th Century. They are very few and far between.

As you say, the Irish, and the Germans and all other Europeans and Asian who came to the Americas do not really have a heritage going back as far back as the First Nations of those lands.

It is the same thing with the Arabs, the Turks, the British, the Greeks, etc.
Unlike the Americas, the Arabs did not create Nations, they do consider themselves ONE nation, and Islam is one Nation as well.
All the world is, or will be Muslim, with no separation, no borders.
That is how they think.

Which is why they will say it on videos, etc, that they are one people.
No difference between them, as there usually is between the Germans, French, Russians, Maoris, Hawaiians, etc.

They are Arabs, speak Arabic and belong to one Nation. A Muslim, Arab Nation.

If it is possible to understand.

Palestinians - Wikipedia
The Palestinian people (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني‎‎, ash-sha‘b al-Filasṭīnī), also referred to as Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيون‎‎, al-Filasṭīniyyūn, Hebrew: פָלַסְטִינִים‎) or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: العربي الفلسطيني‎‎, al-'arabi il-filastini), are an ethnonational group[29][30][31][32][33][34][35] comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, including Jews and Samaritans, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab

Could you explain why, right after WWI, the Palestinians were identifying themselves as Syrians and wanting to be part of Greater Syria?
Why did they not refer themselves as Palestinians and want their land to be known as Palestine from the very beginning of the Mandate?

 

[Coyote]

First I want to apologize for the scarcity of my answers as I am relying on my phone and it sucks to type and produces a ton of typos. I would rather be more verbose snd use sources. Tonight i will try to be on the computer.

Second i want clarify a few things.

The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity.

When you are saying they should not have another state on the territory granted to Jews what exactly do you mean? They should go to Africa...South America? Or shift tbem to Jordan and Syria? See I havent seen Joel state snything beyond denying them any rights of place or identity. It isnt too disimilar to the ways that Myanmar is erasing the Rohinga identity (without the murder and violence Myanmar is conducting) banning even the word. They are nobody. A people with no name or citizenship. I see a systemic effort to deny the Palestinians an identity.

If what you mean is the territory that is currently recognized as Israel then i agree with you. There is Gaza and the West Bank (exactly what parts to be negotiated) then that is reasonable as many will still be in the area where they have cultural and familial ties.

Agree.

Is anyone saying the Jews can not have state anywhere in the world?

Great questions...and i am not sure I have an answer but it deserves a post of its own and fits into the topic perfectly. I am going to answer this part later.


All these are great discussion points so i sill answer them later when i am not so constrained!

Coyote, with all due respect:

"The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity."


You are confusing the people.

The Jews have been in, if one prefers to call it, Palestine.
They are the Palestinians the Romans changed the name into Syria Palestinia.

The Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the same ethnicity of Arabs who invaded the area in the 7th century, while Jews were still living there, and continued to live there. The Arabs did not call the Jews or any other people of the area "Palestinians".

The idea of calling Jews and Arabs, Druze, etc Palestinians, came from the British Mandate for Palestine (it should have been called after Israel, but it was not)

Not being able to stop the descendants of the ancient Jews from recreating their ancient nation, or destroy it after 1948, the Arabs leaders - Arafat - decided to adopt the identity of Palestinians, in 1964.

That was not because they wanted to create a State called Palestine because they identified as such. It was to continue to try to destroy Israel.

And these facts seem to be something you cannot absorb and think about.

Since the first Arab riot in 1920, the Jewish leaders have been able to share the land. 78 % was taken without asking the Jews and given to the Hashemites.
In 1937 the Jewish leaders agreed to a partition for Jews and Arabs.
What were they in the middle of? Did the Arab leaders accept?

The same thing for 1947 and the UN proposed partition.

Q: If the Arab leaders so identify with a Palestinian identity, and I am not speaking about the rest of the population, why are they so intent in destroying Israel in order to have their State on top of it?

I'm not confusing anyone Sixties...but you are mixing issues. Let's stick to one argument at the time.

Are the Palestinian a "people" - at this point in time? Yes.

Do they have a heritage and roots in those lands they inhabit? Yes.

You say they are nothing more than Arab invaders. Think on this a moment. The Arab culture and Muslim religion spread widely - by conquest and also by benign conversion as with most religions. The people who lived there - what of them? Did they automatically disappear? No. They converted, intermarried, whatever - but they are the same people who's ancestors were Christians, Jews and pagans and who farmed those same lands and grazed their herds. Those - plus immigrants from other Arab countries are who the Palestinians are today. Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other. So saying they are nothing more than Arab invaders is dishonest.

"Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other."

Sorry, but genetic studies do not support what you are saying.

What you are saying comes from allegations, and not from actual DNA tests done on some Palestinians to see if they are closely related to Jews. These genetic studies have been debunked and it does not help for people who do not know that they are false, to keep repeating them.

They are more than Arab invaders. Some clans have been there for a thousand years.

But that is not the issue.

The issue is how Islam views Jews. What rights does Islam gives to Jews. What rights Islam has ever given to Jews for the past 1400 years, which is something which some people truly cannot understand.

It has led to 1300 years of oppression.
It has led to 100 years of rejection of any sovereignty for Jews on their ancient homeland.

The conflict is as basic as that.

Islam has replaced Judaism and they tell the Jews what rights they have.

You assume that the Jewish people after the 7th century converted to Islam, or Christianity. They did not, unless forced to.

Records show that the Jewish presence was constant, with Jews always returning to their ancient homeland, and even more so in the 19th century.

Arabs are not mainly invaders, like all the others. As Muslims they do believe that any land they have conquered will always remain under Islam, no matter which group. That is why one does not have any wars between the Turks and the Arabs for the 500 years of the Ottoman Empire.

All of these Muslims and Christian Arabs who have roots on the Land of Israel, born there, can live there. As I have said before, Jews never meant to expel them but to live with them in peace if possible.
The Al-Husseini clan chose otherwise and won the leadership of the Arab people by force.

I will say it again.
Get rid of the Arab leaders of today, sometime in the future, and peace will be possible.
No Iran, no Qatar, no other Arab or Muslim country meddling between the Israelis and Palestinians negotiating and wanting peace, and it will happen as it did with Egypt and Jordan.

Someday, who knows

Where has this been debunked?

Where does it come from? Which source?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

 

[Coyote]

Well...who decides when a people is a people? I don't know. I think each group that wants that recognition must make a case for it. I guess self identitification is a major part of it. Despite the seeming ease of it we don't have hundreds of groups clammering for recognition and rights. Does that clarify at all?

Not really. Let me clarify my concern.

My concern is that we make new people over and over and over until the OTHER people still exist, but no longer have any territory to claim.

It would be like the Irish claiming a part of the US. And the British. And the French. And the Scots. And the Germans. And the Dutch. And they claim so much land, there is none left over for the First Nations People.

But what do you do when both people's have roots extending back thousand or more years?

I don't see how it would be like the Irish claiming part of the US - no portion of their heritage is there...

In reality, the Arab people do not have a "heritage" in the land of Israel.
They, as usual, built a Mosque on top of the other culture's church or synagogue, or temple, in order to erase their history.

The Jewish Holy Places were never sacred to Muslims during the whole 1300 years they came and went, or stayed.
Jerusalem was never important to them, until Israel became Independent and they took the Jewish Quarter away from Israel in 1948. And Judea and Samaria were never important, either.

They call the Temple Mount the "third holiest" in Islam.
But mostly what they do is play soccer, have picnics, throw rocks at Jews, bring weapons and bombs into their own mosques to use against the Jews, etc, etc.

They did nothing but destroy synagogues, the Jewish cemetery and anything else they could from 1948 to 1967 while they had those parts in their hands, and not allow Jews and Christians any rights to go to their holy sites. As they had been doing for the past 1300 years, one Muslim group or another.

Some Muslims were nice and did the right thing, like allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem in the 7th Century. They are very few and far between.

As you say, the Irish, and the Germans and all other Europeans and Asian who came to the Americas do not really have a heritage going back as far back as the First Nations of those lands.

It is the same thing with the Arabs, the Turks, the British, the Greeks, etc.
Unlike the Americas, the Arabs did not create Nations, they do consider themselves ONE nation, and Islam is one Nation as well.
All the world is, or will be Muslim, with no separation, no borders.
That is how they think.

Which is why they will say it on videos, etc, that they are one people.
No difference between them, as there usually is between the Germans, French, Russians, Maoris, Hawaiians, etc.

They are Arabs, speak Arabic and belong to one Nation. A Muslim, Arab Nation.

If it is possible to understand.

Palestinians - Wikipedia
The Palestinian people (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني‎‎, ash-sha‘b al-Filasṭīnī), also referred to as Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيون‎‎, al-Filasṭīniyyūn, Hebrew: פָלַסְטִינִים‎) or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: العربي الفلسطيني‎‎, al-'arabi il-filastini), are an ethnonational group[29][30][31][32][33][34][35] comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, including Jews and Samaritans, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab

Could you explain why, right after WWI, the Palestinians were identifying themselves as Syrians and wanting to be part of Greater Syria?
Why did they not refer themselves as Palestinians and want their land to be known as Palestine from the very beginning of the Mandate?

WW1 is now a hundred years ago.

 

[Coyote]

Hold on a second. You are cherry picking what I said.

This was what I said originally - I did not change anything or "now" say anything different:

On how Muslims feel about Jewish people - Muslims and Jews largely got along historically. Was it a 20th century relationship of human rights, religious tolerance and democratic values? Of course not - that did not exist in any culture of those eras. It sucked to be the minority religions/ethnicities (and sucked worse to be a woman). But Jews in many areas flourished in ways they could not in Christian Europe.​

It's not a "plus" OR a negative. You can't take things out of historical context - what we value today did not exist centuries ago. So yes - it is relative. Those values did not exist then.

You brought it up because you thought it was relevant. So, HOW is it relevant? When you say, "Muslims and Jews got along historically" -- how is that relevant to today and our topic?

I brought it up because it was in response to a comment in another post about the historic relationship between Muslims and Jews.

 

[JoelT1]

Coyote, with all due respect:

"The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity."


You are confusing the people.

The Jews have been in, if one prefers to call it, Palestine.
They are the Palestinians the Romans changed the name into Syria Palestinia.

The Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the same ethnicity of Arabs who invaded the area in the 7th century, while Jews were still living there, and continued to live there. The Arabs did not call the Jews or any other people of the area "Palestinians".

The idea of calling Jews and Arabs, Druze, etc Palestinians, came from the British Mandate for Palestine (it should have been called after Israel, but it was not)

Not being able to stop the descendants of the ancient Jews from recreating their ancient nation, or destroy it after 1948, the Arabs leaders - Arafat - decided to adopt the identity of Palestinians, in 1964.

That was not because they wanted to create a State called Palestine because they identified as such. It was to continue to try to destroy Israel.

And these facts seem to be something you cannot absorb and think about.

Since the first Arab riot in 1920, the Jewish leaders have been able to share the land. 78 % was taken without asking the Jews and given to the Hashemites.
In 1937 the Jewish leaders agreed to a partition for Jews and Arabs.
What were they in the middle of? Did the Arab leaders accept?

The same thing for 1947 and the UN proposed partition.

Q: If the Arab leaders so identify with a Palestinian identity, and I am not speaking about the rest of the population, why are they so intent in destroying Israel in order to have their State on top of it?

I'm not confusing anyone Sixties...but you are mixing issues. Let's stick to one argument at the time.

Are the Palestinian a "people" - at this point in time? Yes.

Do they have a heritage and roots in those lands they inhabit? Yes.

You say they are nothing more than Arab invaders. Think on this a moment. The Arab culture and Muslim religion spread widely - by conquest and also by benign conversion as with most religions. The people who lived there - what of them? Did they automatically disappear? No. They converted, intermarried, whatever - but they are the same people who's ancestors were Christians, Jews and pagans and who farmed those same lands and grazed their herds. Those - plus immigrants from other Arab countries are who the Palestinians are today. Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other. So saying they are nothing more than Arab invaders is dishonest.

"Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other."

Sorry, but genetic studies do not support what you are saying.

What you are saying comes from allegations, and not from actual DNA tests done on some Palestinians to see if they are closely related to Jews. These genetic studies have been debunked and it does not help for people who do not know that they are false, to keep repeating them.

They are more than Arab invaders. Some clans have been there for a thousand years.

But that is not the issue.

The issue is how Islam views Jews. What rights does Islam gives to Jews. What rights Islam has ever given to Jews for the past 1400 years, which is something which some people truly cannot understand.

It has led to 1300 years of oppression.
It has led to 100 years of rejection of any sovereignty for Jews on their ancient homeland.

The conflict is as basic as that.

Islam has replaced Judaism and they tell the Jews what rights they have.

You assume that the Jewish people after the 7th century converted to Islam, or Christianity. They did not, unless forced to.

Records show that the Jewish presence was constant, with Jews always returning to their ancient homeland, and even more so in the 19th century.

Arabs are not mainly invaders, like all the others. As Muslims they do believe that any land they have conquered will always remain under Islam, no matter which group. That is why one does not have any wars between the Turks and the Arabs for the 500 years of the Ottoman Empire.

All of these Muslims and Christian Arabs who have roots on the Land of Israel, born there, can live there. As I have said before, Jews never meant to expel them but to live with them in peace if possible.
The Al-Husseini clan chose otherwise and won the leadership of the Arab people by force.

I will say it again.
Get rid of the Arab leaders of today, sometime in the future, and peace will be possible.
No Iran, no Qatar, no other Arab or Muslim country meddling between the Israelis and Palestinians negotiating and wanting peace, and it will happen as it did with Egypt and Jordan.

Someday, who knows

Where has this been debunked?

Where does it come from? Which source?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

No. Modern palestinians are Arabs. Jews and Arabs are not related

 

[Sixties Fan]

Not really. Let me clarify my concern.

My concern is that we make new people over and over and over until the OTHER people still exist, but no longer have any territory to claim.

It would be like the Irish claiming a part of the US. And the British. And the French. And the Scots. And the Germans. And the Dutch. And they claim so much land, there is none left over for the First Nations People.

But what do you do when both people's have roots extending back thousand or more years?

I don't see how it would be like the Irish claiming part of the US - no portion of their heritage is there...

In reality, the Arab people do not have a "heritage" in the land of Israel.
They, as usual, built a Mosque on top of the other culture's church or synagogue, or temple, in order to erase their history.

The Jewish Holy Places were never sacred to Muslims during the whole 1300 years they came and went, or stayed.
Jerusalem was never important to them, until Israel became Independent and they took the Jewish Quarter away from Israel in 1948. And Judea and Samaria were never important, either.

They call the Temple Mount the "third holiest" in Islam.
But mostly what they do is play soccer, have picnics, throw rocks at Jews, bring weapons and bombs into their own mosques to use against the Jews, etc, etc.

They did nothing but destroy synagogues, the Jewish cemetery and anything else they could from 1948 to 1967 while they had those parts in their hands, and not allow Jews and Christians any rights to go to their holy sites. As they had been doing for the past 1300 years, one Muslim group or another.

Some Muslims were nice and did the right thing, like allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem in the 7th Century. They are very few and far between.

As you say, the Irish, and the Germans and all other Europeans and Asian who came to the Americas do not really have a heritage going back as far back as the First Nations of those lands.

It is the same thing with the Arabs, the Turks, the British, the Greeks, etc.
Unlike the Americas, the Arabs did not create Nations, they do consider themselves ONE nation, and Islam is one Nation as well.
All the world is, or will be Muslim, with no separation, no borders.
That is how they think.

Which is why they will say it on videos, etc, that they are one people.
No difference between them, as there usually is between the Germans, French, Russians, Maoris, Hawaiians, etc.

They are Arabs, speak Arabic and belong to one Nation. A Muslim, Arab Nation.

If it is possible to understand.

Palestinians - Wikipedia
The Palestinian people (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني‎‎, ash-sha‘b al-Filasṭīnī), also referred to as Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيون‎‎, al-Filasṭīniyyūn, Hebrew: פָלַסְטִינִים‎) or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: العربي الفلسطيني‎‎, al-'arabi il-filastini), are an ethnonational group[29][30][31][32][33][34][35] comprising the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, including Jews and Samaritans, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab

Could you explain why, right after WWI, the Palestinians were identifying themselves as Syrians and wanting to be part of Greater Syria?
Why did they not refer themselves as Palestinians and want their land to be known as Palestine from the very beginning of the Mandate?

WW1 is now a hundred years ago.

You have not answered my question mainly because you do not know how the Arabs who were living in the region of Palestine thought about themselves, and especially as the Ottoman Empire was going to be carved amongst Arabs especially, how the Leaders and others saw themselves or wanted to be part of.

 

[JoelT1]

Hold on a second. You are cherry picking what I said.

This was what I said originally - I did not change anything or "now" say anything different:

On how Muslims feel about Jewish people - Muslims and Jews largely got along historically. Was it a 20th century relationship of human rights, religious tolerance and democratic values? Of course not - that did not exist in any culture of those eras. It sucked to be the minority religions/ethnicities (and sucked worse to be a woman). But Jews in many areas flourished in ways they could not in Christian Europe.​

It's not a "plus" OR a negative. You can't take things out of historical context - what we value today did not exist centuries ago. So yes - it is relative. Those values did not exist then.

You brought it up because you thought it was relevant. So, HOW is it relevant? When you say, "Muslims and Jews got along historically" -- how is that relevant to today and our topic?

I brought it up because it was in response to a comment in another post about the historic relationship between Muslims and Jews.

Muslims historically have been hostile to Jews, Ottoman Turks an exception.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not confusing anyone Sixties...but you are mixing issues. Let's stick to one argument at the time.

Are the Palestinian a "people" - at this point in time? Yes.

Do they have a heritage and roots in those lands they inhabit? Yes.

You say they are nothing more than Arab invaders. Think on this a moment. The Arab culture and Muslim religion spread widely - by conquest and also by benign conversion as with most religions. The people who lived there - what of them? Did they automatically disappear? No. They converted, intermarried, whatever - but they are the same people who's ancestors were Christians, Jews and pagans and who farmed those same lands and grazed their herds. Those - plus immigrants from other Arab countries are who the Palestinians are today. Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other. So saying they are nothing more than Arab invaders is dishonest.

"Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other."

Sorry, but genetic studies do not support what you are saying.

What you are saying comes from allegations, and not from actual DNA tests done on some Palestinians to see if they are closely related to Jews. These genetic studies have been debunked and it does not help for people who do not know that they are false, to keep repeating them.

They are more than Arab invaders. Some clans have been there for a thousand years.

But that is not the issue.

The issue is how Islam views Jews. What rights does Islam gives to Jews. What rights Islam has ever given to Jews for the past 1400 years, which is something which some people truly cannot understand.

It has led to 1300 years of oppression.
It has led to 100 years of rejection of any sovereignty for Jews on their ancient homeland.

The conflict is as basic as that.

Islam has replaced Judaism and they tell the Jews what rights they have.

You assume that the Jewish people after the 7th century converted to Islam, or Christianity. They did not, unless forced to.

Records show that the Jewish presence was constant, with Jews always returning to their ancient homeland, and even more so in the 19th century.

Arabs are not mainly invaders, like all the others. As Muslims they do believe that any land they have conquered will always remain under Islam, no matter which group. That is why one does not have any wars between the Turks and the Arabs for the 500 years of the Ottoman Empire.

All of these Muslims and Christian Arabs who have roots on the Land of Israel, born there, can live there. As I have said before, Jews never meant to expel them but to live with them in peace if possible.
The Al-Husseini clan chose otherwise and won the leadership of the Arab people by force.

I will say it again.
Get rid of the Arab leaders of today, sometime in the future, and peace will be possible.
No Iran, no Qatar, no other Arab or Muslim country meddling between the Israelis and Palestinians negotiating and wanting peace, and it will happen as it did with Egypt and Jordan.

Someday, who knows

Where has this been debunked?

Where does it come from? Which source?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

No. Modern palestinians are Arabs. Jews and Arabs are not related

326

 

[Sixties Fan]

Coyote, with all due respect:

"The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity."


You are confusing the people.

The Jews have been in, if one prefers to call it, Palestine.
They are the Palestinians the Romans changed the name into Syria Palestinia.

The Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the same ethnicity of Arabs who invaded the area in the 7th century, while Jews were still living there, and continued to live there. The Arabs did not call the Jews or any other people of the area "Palestinians".

The idea of calling Jews and Arabs, Druze, etc Palestinians, came from the British Mandate for Palestine (it should have been called after Israel, but it was not)

Not being able to stop the descendants of the ancient Jews from recreating their ancient nation, or destroy it after 1948, the Arabs leaders - Arafat - decided to adopt the identity of Palestinians, in 1964.

That was not because they wanted to create a State called Palestine because they identified as such. It was to continue to try to destroy Israel.

And these facts seem to be something you cannot absorb and think about.

Since the first Arab riot in 1920, the Jewish leaders have been able to share the land. 78 % was taken without asking the Jews and given to the Hashemites.
In 1937 the Jewish leaders agreed to a partition for Jews and Arabs.
What were they in the middle of? Did the Arab leaders accept?

The same thing for 1947 and the UN proposed partition.

Q: If the Arab leaders so identify with a Palestinian identity, and I am not speaking about the rest of the population, why are they so intent in destroying Israel in order to have their State on top of it?

I'm not confusing anyone Sixties...but you are mixing issues. Let's stick to one argument at the time.

Are the Palestinian a "people" - at this point in time? Yes.

Do they have a heritage and roots in those lands they inhabit? Yes.

You say they are nothing more than Arab invaders. Think on this a moment. The Arab culture and Muslim religion spread widely - by conquest and also by benign conversion as with most religions. The people who lived there - what of them? Did they automatically disappear? No. They converted, intermarried, whatever - but they are the same people who's ancestors were Christians, Jews and pagans and who farmed those same lands and grazed their herds. Those - plus immigrants from other Arab countries are who the Palestinians are today. Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other. So saying they are nothing more than Arab invaders is dishonest.

"Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other."

Sorry, but genetic studies do not support what you are saying.

What you are saying comes from allegations, and not from actual DNA tests done on some Palestinians to see if they are closely related to Jews. These genetic studies have been debunked and it does not help for people who do not know that they are false, to keep repeating them.

They are more than Arab invaders. Some clans have been there for a thousand years.

But that is not the issue.

The issue is how Islam views Jews. What rights does Islam gives to Jews. What rights Islam has ever given to Jews for the past 1400 years, which is something which some people truly cannot understand.

It has led to 1300 years of oppression.
It has led to 100 years of rejection of any sovereignty for Jews on their ancient homeland.

The conflict is as basic as that.

Islam has replaced Judaism and they tell the Jews what rights they have.

You assume that the Jewish people after the 7th century converted to Islam, or Christianity. They did not, unless forced to.

Records show that the Jewish presence was constant, with Jews always returning to their ancient homeland, and even more so in the 19th century.

Arabs are not mainly invaders, like all the others. As Muslims they do believe that any land they have conquered will always remain under Islam, no matter which group. That is why one does not have any wars between the Turks and the Arabs for the 500 years of the Ottoman Empire.

All of these Muslims and Christian Arabs who have roots on the Land of Israel, born there, can live there. As I have said before, Jews never meant to expel them but to live with them in peace if possible.
The Al-Husseini clan chose otherwise and won the leadership of the Arab people by force.

I will say it again.
Get rid of the Arab leaders of today, sometime in the future, and peace will be possible.
No Iran, no Qatar, no other Arab or Muslim country meddling between the Israelis and Palestinians negotiating and wanting peace, and it will happen as it did with Egypt and Jordan.

Someday, who knows

Where has this been debunked?

Where does it come from? Which source?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

That graphic is not in that article.

The fact that some Jews have been either forced to convert to Islam, or at any point, or recently have chosen to convert to Islam, does not make them brothers or cousins of the Arabs.

There have been very few instances of Jews marrying Arabs, and I am saying Arabs, one can call them Palestinians all one wants, when they actually identify with coming from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and many other parts of the conquered Muslim world.

There is no "Arabs are descendants of Ishmael". That is a total myth which only came to be after Islam was founded to try to make it look as if there has ever been any connection between Jews and Arabs blood wise.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.

Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...

Now for facts:

The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.

Q. But let's pretend You were right, and there was no distinction. Then why didn't Jews deserve all those rights You claim Arab do?

 

[Shusha]

[
They were all just Palestinians. There was no distinction. Religion was irrelevant.

Oh the kumbaya fairytale again...

Now for facts:

The distinction between Arabs and Jews was pretty clear, during the years of Arab pogroms against Palestinian Jews. Prior to Zionism.

Q. But let's pretend You were right, and there was no distinction. Then why didn't Jews deserve all those rights You claim Arab do?

"The problem was not with Jews. It was with the settlers who came."

Um. Who were Jews. And not Arabs. The problem was not with settlers, because Arab settlers were readily accepted (and not called settlers). But with settlers who were Jews. Hence, the problem is with the Jews.