Most acknowledge that there is no difference between Palestinians and Jordanians and Syrians. That they are one people. They self-identify as one people.
That is NOT what team Israel are saying. No one on team Israel is saying that the Palestinians can't have a State of any kind on any territory. Not even Joel is saying that. Joel is simply saying that the Arab Palestinians shouldn't have yet ANOTHER State or three on territory that was granted to the Jewish people.
First I want to apologize for the scarcity of my answers as I am relying on my phone and it sucks to type and produces a ton of typos. I would rather be more verbose snd use sources. Tonight i will try to be on the computer.
Second i want clarify a few things.
The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity.
When you are saying they should not have another state on the territory granted to Jews what exactly do you mean? They should go to Africa...South America? Or shift tbem to Jordan and Syria? See I havent seen Joel state snything beyond denying them any rights of place or identity. It isnt too disimilar to the ways that Myanmar is erasing the Rohinga identity (without the murder and violence Myanmar is conducting) banning even the word. They are nobody. A people with no name or citizenship. I see a systemic effort to deny the Palestinians an identity.
If what you mean is the territory that is currently recognized as Israel then i agree with you. There is Gaza and the West Bank (exactly what parts to be negotiated) then that is reasonable as many will still be in the area where they have cultural and familial ties.
There is a very significant difference between "You can not have a State ANYWHERE on this territory (or anywhere in the world) because you do not exist" and saying, "You can't have a State HERE because this is the place for the Jewish people, but you can have one THERE because that is the place for the Arab Palestinian people".
Agree.
The equivalent would be for team Israel to say, "The Arab Palestinians can not have a State anywhere in the world because they do not exist." (And we are going to stay at war with them until their State is destroyed.)
Is anyone saying the Jews can not have state anywhere in the world?
THAT is a fascinating question. Actually, I think the question should be reversed. When does a people cease to belong to a broad cultural group (a people)? Is self-identification the ONLY criteria? Or is there some requirement for some sort of significant cultural change or difference? If yes, what criteria would you choose?
Great questions...and i am not sure I have an answer but it deserves a post of its own and fits into the topic perfectly. I am going to answer this part later.
All these are great discussion points so i sill answer them later when i am not so constrained!
Coyote, with all due respect:
"The Palestinians are now a people. They consider themselves a people. It should not mstter if they are culturally very similar to others. They have lived in the area referred to as Palestine for thousands of years. They have been overrun and conquered and married into other peoples and they include immigrants from other Arab countries. They have deep family ties to place that is equal to thogh different from the ties claimed by the Jews. This is one thing some here will not recognize as having any validity."
You are confusing the people.
The Jews have been in, if one prefers to call it, Palestine.
They are the Palestinians the Romans changed the name into Syria Palestinia.
The Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the same ethnicity of Arabs who invaded the area in the 7th century, while Jews were still living there, and continued to live there. The Arabs did not call the Jews or any other people of the area "Palestinians".
The idea of calling Jews and Arabs, Druze, etc Palestinians, came from the British Mandate for Palestine (it should have been called after Israel, but it was not)
Not being able to stop the descendants of the ancient Jews from recreating their ancient nation, or destroy it after 1948, the Arabs leaders - Arafat - decided to adopt the identity of Palestinians, in 1964.
That was not because they wanted to create a State called Palestine because they identified as such. It was to continue to try to destroy Israel.
And these facts seem to be something you cannot absorb and think about.
Since the first Arab riot in 1920, the Jewish leaders have been able to share the land. 78 % was taken without asking the Jews and given to the Hashemites.
In 1937 the Jewish leaders agreed to a partition for Jews and Arabs.
What were they in the middle of? Did the Arab leaders accept?
The same thing for 1947 and the UN proposed partition.
Q: If the Arab leaders so identify with a Palestinian identity, and I am not speaking about the rest of the population, why are they so intent in destroying Israel in order to have their State on top of it?
I'm not confusing anyone Sixties...but you are mixing issues. Let's stick to one argument at the time.
Are the Palestinian a "people" - at this point in time? Yes.
Do they have a heritage and roots in those lands they inhabit? Yes.
You say they are nothing more than Arab invaders. Think on this a moment. The Arab culture and Muslim religion spread widely - by conquest and also by benign conversion as with most religions. The people who lived there - what of them? Did they automatically disappear? No. They converted, intermarried, whatever - but they are the same people who's ancestors were Christians, Jews and pagans and who farmed those same lands and grazed their herds. Those - plus immigrants from other Arab countries are who the Palestinians are today. Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other. So saying they are nothing more than Arab invaders is dishonest.
"Genetic studies support that. Palestinians are very close to Jews - infact closer than some Jewish groups are to each other."
Sorry, but genetic studies do not support what you are saying.
What you are saying comes from allegations, and not from actual DNA tests done on some Palestinians to see if they are closely related to Jews. These genetic studies have been debunked and it does not help for people who do not know that they are false, to keep repeating them.
They are more than Arab invaders. Some clans have been there for a thousand years.
But that is not the issue.
The issue is how Islam views Jews. What rights does Islam gives to Jews. What rights Islam has ever given to Jews for the past 1400 years, which is something which some people truly cannot understand.
It has led to 1300 years of oppression.
It has led to 100 years of rejection of any sovereignty for Jews on their ancient homeland.
The conflict is as basic as that.
Islam has replaced Judaism and they tell the Jews what rights they have.
You assume that the Jewish people after the 7th century converted to Islam, or Christianity. They did not, unless forced to.
Records show that the Jewish presence was constant, with Jews always returning to their ancient homeland, and even more so in the 19th century.
Arabs are not mainly invaders, like all the others. As Muslims they do believe that any land they have conquered will always remain under Islam, no matter which group. That is why one does not have any wars between the Turks and the Arabs for the 500 years of the Ottoman Empire.
All of these Muslims and Christian Arabs who have roots on the Land of Israel, born there, can live there. As I have said before, Jews never meant to expel them but to live with them in peace if possible.
The Al-Husseini clan chose otherwise and won the leadership of the Arab people by force.
I will say it again.
Get rid of the Arab leaders of today, sometime in the future, and peace will be possible.
No Iran, no Qatar, no other Arab or Muslim country meddling between the Israelis and Palestinians negotiating and wanting peace, and it will happen as it did with Egypt and Jordan.
Someday, who knows
