Who—and How Many—Are the Palestinian Refugees?

[toastman]

'You post a lot of stuff to smokescreen the issue'

That's sweet coming from you Tinmore!

Rocco has done an EXCELLENT job responding to all or most of the points in your posts while providing calid links to back up his claims. The same cannot be said for you.
The issue is thay you keep repeating the same lies, over and over even adter Rocco has dismantled them. But you simly cannot admit that you're wrong.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, your statements are questionable in there inference.

Even people in non self governing territories have these rights.

• The right to self determination.
• The right to independence.
• The right to sovereignty.
• The right to territorial integrity.

(COMMENT)

This may be true. But there is a big difference between having a "right" and exercising that "right." Of the people in the former Mandate for Palestine, the Hashemite Kingdom (1946), the Israelis (1948) and the Palestinian (1988) declared independence.


(COMMENT)

What are you using as the authority for the establishment of "Palestine's international borders?"

You cannot be using the Treaty of Lausanne. It discusses the Ottoman Empire Sanjaks (administrative divisions of the Ottoman Empire) of Nablus, Acre, the Southern portion of the Beirut Vilayet, and the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem; but not Palestine. The entire area was considered Syria, "from the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia" -- under the treaty.

The legal commission for the administration of Occupied Enemy Territory named Palestine (a territory within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers - defined by the Palestine Order in Council) was confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations (24 July 1922) and which came into effect on 26 September 1923.

The Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia, signed December 1920. It delineates the boundaries between the French Mandates and the Brithish Mandates.

Again, what authority do you use to show the International Borders of Palestine?

Most Respectfully,
R

You post a lot of stuff to smokescreen the issue. But your stuff does not prove your point.

The boundaries between the territories under the French mandate of Syria and the Lebanon on the one hand and the British mandates of Mesopotamia and Palestine on the other are determined as follows: —

If they were hammering out the borders between the mandates, what would be the point of mentioning Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia? Actually they were setting the international borders of Palestine and Lebanon, and Palestine and Syria.

These international borders are shown in the map below. They were also referenced in the 1949 armistice agreements that took place almost a year after the mandate left Palestine.

The borders in that map are PROPOSED borders! If they really are/were Palestine borders, then show us a map that SAYS so, instead of the only map that you can find, which shows the partition plan.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, your statements are questionable in there inference.


(COMMENT)

This may be true. But there is a big difference between having a "right" and exercising that "right." Of the people in the former Mandate for Palestine, the Hashemite Kingdom (1946), the Israelis (1948) and the Palestinian (1988) declared independence.


(COMMENT)

What are you using as the authority for the establishment of "Palestine's international borders?"

You cannot be using the Treaty of Lausanne. It discusses the Ottoman Empire Sanjaks (administrative divisions of the Ottoman Empire) of Nablus, Acre, the Southern portion of the Beirut Vilayet, and the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem; but not Palestine. The entire area was considered Syria, "from the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia" -- under the treaty.

The legal commission for the administration of Occupied Enemy Territory named Palestine (a territory within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers - defined by the Palestine Order in Council) was confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations (24 July 1922) and which came into effect on 26 September 1923.

The Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia, signed December 1920. It delineates the boundaries between the French Mandates and the Brithish Mandates.

Again, what authority do you use to show the International Borders of Palestine?

Most Respectfully,
R

You post a lot of stuff to smokescreen the issue. But your stuff does not prove your point.

The boundaries between the territories under the French mandate of Syria and the Lebanon on the one hand and the British mandates of Mesopotamia and Palestine on the other are determined as follows: —

If they were hammering out the borders between the mandates, what would be the point of mentioning Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia? Actually they were setting the international borders of Palestine and Lebanon, and Palestine and Syria.

These international borders are shown in the map below. They were also referenced in the 1949 armistice agreements that took place almost a year after the mandate left Palestine.

The borders in that map are PROPOSED borders! If they really are/were Palestine borders, then show us a map that SAYS so, instead of the only map that you can find, which shows the partition plan.

Oh jeese, you don't know how to read a map?

 

[toastman]

Yes, I do. You're the one who can't read. It clearly states on the top PARTITION PLAN PROPOSED BY THE AD HOC COMMITTEE!

Why can't you find a map that doesnt say that, but instead says : here is a map of Palestines international borders?

Answer: because it doesn't exist.

 

[toastman]

BTW Tinmore, you always whine about how the partition plan was never implemented, and then you post a map that the partition plan proposed, claiming it is accurate

I think it's time you stopped debating about the I/P conflict and chose another topic, because frankly Tinmore, you have no idea what you're talking about

 

[P F Tinmore]

BTW Tinmore, you always whine about how the partition plan was never implemented, and then you post a map that the partition plan proposed, claiming it is accurate

I think it's time you stopped debating about the I/P conflict and chose another topic, because frankly Tinmore, you have no idea what you're talking about

Says the guy who does not know how to read a map.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, your statements are questionable in there inference.

Even people in non self governing territories have these rights.

• The right to self determination.
• The right to independence.
• The right to sovereignty.
• The right to territorial integrity.

(COMMENT)

This may be true. But there is a big difference between having a "right" and exercising that "right." Of the people in the former Mandate for Palestine, the Hashemite Kingdom (1946), the Israelis (1948) and the Palestinian (1988) declared independence.


(COMMENT)

What are you using as the authority for the establishment of "Palestine's international borders?"

You cannot be using the Treaty of Lausanne. It discusses the Ottoman Empire Sanjaks (administrative divisions of the Ottoman Empire) of Nablus, Acre, the Southern portion of the Beirut Vilayet, and the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem; but not Palestine. The entire area was considered Syria, "from the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia" -- under the treaty.

The legal commission for the administration of Occupied Enemy Territory named Palestine (a territory within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers - defined by the Palestine Order in Council) was confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations (24 July 1922) and which came into effect on 26 September 1923.

The Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia, signed December 1920. It delineates the boundaries between the French Mandates and the Brithish Mandates.

Again, what authority do you use to show the International Borders of Palestine?

Most Respectfully,
R

You post a lot of stuff to smokescreen the issue. But your stuff does not prove your point.

The boundaries between the territories under the French mandate of Syria and the Lebanon on the one hand and the British mandates of Mesopotamia and Palestine on the other are determined as follows: —

If they were hammering out the borders between the mandates, what would be the point of mentioning Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia? Actually they were setting the international borders of Palestine and Lebanon, and Palestine and Syria.

These international borders are shown in the map below. They were also referenced in the 1949 armistice agreements that took place almost a year after the mandate left Palestine.

Sorry but those are not the International borders, just the proposed borders by an ad hoc committee in 1947. Your past posts on this state that the borders were set in stone way back in 1921, yet you cant produce a map from that date. Nor have you produced any signed treaties that show the people of Palestine have agreed to the truncating of their country into smaller and smaller size with the creation of trans Jordan and Syria.

 

[Phoenall]

You post a lot of stuff to smokescreen the issue. But your stuff does not prove your point.



If they were hammering out the borders between the mandates, what would be the point of mentioning Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia? Actually they were setting the international borders of Palestine and Lebanon, and Palestine and Syria.

These international borders are shown in the map below. They were also referenced in the 1949 armistice agreements that took place almost a year after the mandate left Palestine.

The borders in that map are PROPOSED borders! If they really are/were Palestine borders, then show us a map that SAYS so, instead of the only map that you can find, which shows the partition plan.

Oh jeese, you don't know how to read a map?

The first thing you do is look at the revision date to see if it is up to date. Then you look at the title to see if it covers the area you are interested in, then look at the legend to see exactly what the map covers. In this case it is from 1947, 26 years after the time period of interest, the title says it is a proposed break up or partition of part of the M.E and lastly the economic make up of the proposal.

NOWHERE DOES IT STATE THIS IS THE DEFINITIVE MAP AS COMMISSIONED BY THE LoN IN 1921 TO SHOW THE EXTENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL BORDERS OF PALESTINE PRIOR TO ITS PARTITIONING INTO SEPERATE STATES OF TRANS JORDAN, SYRIA, LEBANON AND THE NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS

 

[Phoenall]

BTW Tinmore, you always whine about how the partition plan was never implemented, and then you post a map that the partition plan proposed, claiming it is accurate

I think it's time you stopped debating about the I/P conflict and chose another topic, because frankly Tinmore, you have no idea what you're talking about

Says the guy who does not know how to read a map.

The map does not say this is the borders of Palestine as defined by the treaties of 1921, which is what you are trying to sell.

 

[P F Tinmore]

BTW Tinmore, you always whine about how the partition plan was never implemented, and then you post a map that the partition plan proposed, claiming it is accurate

I think it's time you stopped debating about the I/P conflict and chose another topic, because frankly Tinmore, you have no idea what you're talking about

Says the guy who does not know how to read a map.

The map does not say this is the borders of Palestine as defined by the treaties of 1921, which is what you are trying to sell.

 

[proudveteran06]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, your statements are questionable in there inference.


(COMMENT)

This may be true. But there is a big difference between having a "right" and exercising that "right." Of the people in the former Mandate for Palestine, the Hashemite Kingdom (1946), the Israelis (1948) and the Palestinian (1988) declared independence.


(COMMENT)

What are you using as the authority for the establishment of "Palestine's international borders?"

You cannot be using the Treaty of Lausanne. It discusses the Ottoman Empire Sanjaks (administrative divisions of the Ottoman Empire) of Nablus, Acre, the Southern portion of the Beirut Vilayet, and the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem; but not Palestine. The entire area was considered Syria, "from the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia" -- under the treaty.

The legal commission for the administration of Occupied Enemy Territory named Palestine (a territory within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers - defined by the Palestine Order in Council) was confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations (24 July 1922) and which came into effect on 26 September 1923.

The Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia, signed December 1920. It delineates the boundaries between the French Mandates and the Brithish Mandates.

Again, what authority do you use to show the International Borders of Palestine?

Most Respectfully,
R

You post a lot of stuff to smokescreen the issue. But your stuff does not prove your point.

The boundaries between the territories under the French mandate of Syria and the Lebanon on the one hand and the British mandates of Mesopotamia and Palestine on the other are determined as follows: —

If they were hammering out the borders between the mandates, what would be the point of mentioning Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia? Actually they were setting the international borders of Palestine and Lebanon, and Palestine and Syria.

These international borders are shown in the map below. They were also referenced in the 1949 armistice agreements that took place almost a year after the mandate left Palestine.

Sorry but those are not the International borders, just the proposed borders by an ad hoc committee in 1947. Your past posts on this state that the borders were set in stone way back in 1921, yet you cant produce a map from that date. Nor have you produced any signed treaties that show the people of Palestine have agreed to the truncating of their country into smaller and smaller size with the creation of trans Jordan and Syria.

" Palestine" is a territory: Not a Country. Ask the Palestinian why the Arabs rejected the " Two State Solution" after WW 1, WW 2 and prior to 1967 and there will be no response.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Good Morning!

You post a lot of stuff to smokescreen the issue. But your stuff does not prove your point.

(COMMENT)

Well, actually it does answer the question about the who, what, where, when, and why, the borders came about.

Article 95 of Part III - Section VII (Syria, Mesopotamia, Palestine) in the Treaty of Sevres says: "the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers." What I presented in Posting #99 directly answers the basic interrogatives on the boundaries that were set by two of the Allied Powers of San Remo.

If they were hammering out the borders between the mandates, what would be the point of mentioning Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia? Actually they were setting the international borders of Palestine and Lebanon, and Palestine and Syria.

(COMMENT)

Because that were the names of the three Class "A" Mandates handed down by the League of Nations:

These international borders are shown in the map below.

(COMMENT)

Yes, our friend "toastman" is very much correct. It is the standard 1:100,000 Scale Map [UN 103.1(b)] traditionally used when referring to the territory. It is a 1946 modified and improved version of Map #8 (British War Office # OR 924) to the 1937 Peel Commission Survey (and is annotated so). The one you Posted happens to be the UN Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) and initially annotated to be used as the base map for Annex A to Resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly. It's uses of the term "Palestine" is in accordance with the Paragraph 1, Part I, Palestinian Order in Council wherein it says: "The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine."

Whereas it is true that the "right of self-determination" is an "inalienable right" --- it is not exclusive to the Palestinians. All peoples (including the Israelis) have the right of self-determination.

Show me where any international law states that foreigners can go to another country with guns and claim the right to self determination.

(COMMENT)

FIRST!

This is a bit absurd. The Jewish Immigration into the territory under Mandate was not at gun point by Jews, it was done in accordance with the Mandate for Palestine passed down by the League of Nations and the Allied Powers.

The inference that the Jews, in the initial immigration came as some armed force, is totally inaccurate.

Article 4

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist Organisation, so long as its organisation and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home. ​

Article 6

The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.​

SOURCE: C. 529. M. 314. 1922. VI.

Second!

In the Preamble to the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples clearly states: "Bearing in mind that nothing in this Declaration may be used to deny any peoples their right to self-determination, exercised in conformity with international law." (Remember that the Mandate for Palestine was (at that time) the legal authority.)

(BACK TO THE QUESTION)

Again, what authority do you use to show the International Borders of Palestine?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[irosie91]

for those who do not know-----Jews were not permitted to own guns
in British mandate Palestine. In places where it is illegal to own guns---
some guns do "exist"----but the vast majority of jews in British mandate
Palestine were completely unarmed The notion that jews landed in Israel
in HORDES -----and ARMED sometime in the early 20th century ----is notable
for its absurdity-----the overwhelming majority of jews who fled to Palestine from
European and Islamic oppression----never touched a gun in their lives or owned
one. ----the idea that they went around SHOOTING up arab villages is absurd at
every level-----if anyone had a gun at all-------like one person----in the city----
he has no choice but to keep it hidden In all of Hebron when the pogrom took
place---1929 one jew had one small pistol. For those who insist that arabs were
expelled from villages at "GUNPOINT" ----any of you got a shred of evidence of
DEATH marches from here to -----way over there over the "border"? how could
such events be kept secret? "jewish magic"?

 

[Phoenall]

Says the guy who does not know how to read a map.

The map does not say this is the borders of Palestine as defined by the treaties of 1921, which is what you are trying to sell.

Did you read the first map that said trans Jordan separated from Palestine in 1921, after your alleged borders were put in place. So will you be demanding Jordan dissolves and gives the land back now ?


Mlnd you I am still waiting for this signed treaty that names Palestine as it was in 1919 and gives it International borders recognised by every nation.

 

[MisterBeale]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY[/ame]

 

[irosie91]

there are idiots here still fighting over the definition of "borders"----insisting that
country "borders" were somehow determined at the beginning of time and
are Immutable -----I got news for you guys

 

[toastman]

BTW Tinmore, you always whine about how the partition plan was never implemented, and then you post a map that the partition plan proposed, claiming it is accurate

I think it's time you stopped debating about the I/P conflict and chose another topic, because frankly Tinmore, you have no idea what you're talking about

Says the guy who does not know how to read a map.

I did read it. You're probably refferring to the bottom right where it shows the lines that are international borders.

Guess what, those are all proposed international borders.

You say the partition plan was never implemented , yet you use a map that shows what the partition plan would have looked like

You're a hoot!

 

[aris2chat]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Good Morning!

You post a lot of stuff to smokescreen the issue. But your stuff does not prove your point.

(COMMENT)

Well, actually it does answer the question about the who, what, where, when, and why, the borders came about.

Article 95 of Part III - Section VII (Syria, Mesopotamia, Palestine) in the Treaty of Sevres says: "the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers." What I presented in Posting #99 directly answers the basic interrogatives on the boundaries that were set by two of the Allied Powers of San Remo.

If they were hammering out the borders between the mandates, what would be the point of mentioning Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia? Actually they were setting the international borders of Palestine and Lebanon, and Palestine and Syria.

(COMMENT)

Because that were the names of the three Class "A" Mandates handed down by the League of Nations:

(COMMENT)

Yes, our friend "toastman" is very much correct. It is the standard 1:100,000 Scale Map [UN 103.1(b)] traditionally used when referring to the territory. It is a 1946 modified and improved version of Map #8 (British War Office # OR 924) to the 1937 Peel Commission Survey (and is annotated so). The one you Posted happens to be the UN Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) and initially annotated to be used as the base map for Annex A to Resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly. It's uses of the term "Palestine" is in accordance with the Paragraph 1, Part I, Palestinian Order in Council wherein it says: "The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine."

Show me where any international law states that foreigners can go to another country with guns and claim the right to self determination.

(COMMENT)

FIRST!

This is a bit absurd. The Jewish Immigration into the territory under Mandate was not at gun point by Jews, it was done in accordance with the Mandate for Palestine passed down by the League of Nations and the Allied Powers.

The inference that the Jews, in the initial immigration came as some armed force, is totally inaccurate.

Article 4

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist Organisation, so long as its organisation and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home. ​

Article 6

The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.​

SOURCE: C. 529. M. 314. 1922. VI.

Second!

In the Preamble to the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples clearly states: "Bearing in mind that nothing in this Declaration may be used to deny any peoples their right to self-determination, exercised in conformity with international law." (Remember that the Mandate for Palestine was (at that time) the legal authority.)

(BACK TO THE QUESTION)

Again, what authority do you use to show the International Borders of Palestine?

Most Respectfully,
R

Ok, I think by now we know tinman is flapping the gums because he has no one else to listen to him and he is lonely. Lets chip in for a voice recorder so he can listen to himself speak and the rest of the forum can move on to something other than an old map that was only a proposal and not a fact. Maybe we can get him some reading glasses at the 99cent store as well.