Which message do you take from Acts 4-5?

[Avatar4321]

1) it shows that Christians were gathering into one body or church under the apostles instead of splitting into various sects or denominations.

2) it shows there was specific authority in the church of God.

3) it shows that God knows our hearts.

4) it shows how important it is to try to take care of the poor.

5) it shows us that we cannot be Insincere with our gifts to the Lord. As Peter said, they were entitled to keep their donation. It was only when they claimed to give it all and held a part back that they were judged of the spirit.

There are many other lessons too.

 

[amrchaos]

The strange thing is

Normally, people are sent away when it is realized they are not committed to the teachings. Their membership is refused until they are truly believers. Killing them once it was discovered they were not ready to receive salvation is doubly cruel. They lose the chance to repent and sent to hell.

Even the disciple, Peter, lied to Jesus. Peter was not immediately killed for doing so. In fact, you could go through the Gospel and find scores of people that lied to Jesus and was immediately killed.

 

[Pogo]

That the socialism of "from each according to their ability to each according to their need" requires social morals for free.

Would you like to buy a verb to make that into an actual thought?

 

[Pogo]

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

What do you get from these verses?

Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ac:4:33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Ac:4:34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac:4:35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac:4:36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Ac:4:37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Ac:5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac:5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ac:5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Ac:5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Ac:5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Ac:5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Ac:5 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Ac:5 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

"Lying to God" is merely the moral, and "extorting money" doesn't even enter into it since the whole idea is communalism. That's the theme here, the rest merely reinforcing the rectitude of the idea. Acts 5 simply follows up and reinforces Acts 4, wherein lieth all the lifestyle description. The entire idea is communal direction over individualism.

The Hutterites built an entire lifestyle out of Acts 4. They live on what they call a "colony", which could also be called a "commune", which works as a unit under the direction of the Minister (CEO) and his wife the Schneider (tailor). Their buildings and equipment are all owned communally, there are no individual personal possessions per se save the clothes on one's back. You live in a one of the several houses built for that purpose, owned by the Colony. Meals are taken together in a common dining hall.

They are also devout pacifists, refusing to participate in aggression or wear a uniform, which has led them to migrate en masse from one country to the next when that country decided it was going to demand their service -- including this one, where some of them were tortured and killed at Leavenworth Prison for refusing to fight in World War One, whereupon they moved from the Dakotas to Manitoba and Saskatchewan and Alberta (some have since moved back to the Dakotas and Montana following a deal with the USG).

All of which seems to work out for them; one is struck upon meeting them by an air of supreme self-confidence that at first comes off as almost rudeness. In their history they have recorded a total of something like one murder and two suicides. In five hundred years. And they were, when I roamed among them twenty years ago (and possibly still are), the fastest-growing ethnic group in the United States.

Very interesting, I had a lot of Hutterites as customers when I worked in Southern Alberta. Nice people. Some of them had a great sense of humor. They used to bring me in produce, potatos, corn and such. And when I was a youngster in southern British Columbia there was a very high population of Mennonites (helped along by the fact that they often had families of 12 or more. Their womenfolk covered up like muslim women sort of but with colorful hand made clothes and usually black head scarfs. They were nice people too, very hard working. Never knew an Anabaptist from shlomola back then. Still don't I guess. Connection with Amish is interesting too. Thanks for the info.

Actually the younger the Hutterite the brighter/more garish the colors, though they do get more muted with age...

 

[Picaro]

They were not in poverty just because they held everything in common. That is an absurd conclusion.
So-called Christians like to deny what Acts clearly says and shows because they have substituted a preferred set of precepts.

I'm not a Christian, I'm just literate and have no need to spin the allegories and moral parables to suit some personal propaganda agenda. They didn't live in a commune, period. Their 'church' at the time was the Porch of Solomon, where the Apostles taught and lectured. The wealthier Christians would contribute to the 'church' as needed in order to fulfill the tenets of taking care of widows and the like; they were not required to sell everything nor was the 'church' something where everybody's property was held in common. that isn't what the verse in Acts refer to, no matter how much you stomp your feet and moan about it. People can find more of what Peter taught, and sorry but it doesn't fit your spin even remotely.

As for the Ananias and Sapphire story, it's clear it's an allegorical reference meant to be of a companion to the Joseph Barnabas story, and like almost all NT writings makes points on a number of levels, broad and narrow, and nobody was actually literally 'killed'; it's a literary device.

 

[Picaro]

ACTS 4-5
Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

It may have been written down in that time frame, but it's an earlier oral tradition that is being written down, so it's an older book than 80-90 A.D. The NT was obviously around before the fall of the Temple; whether it was in written form or not doesn't mean a lot. There wasn't a lot of revision later on, though there was likely errors in translations between languages over the years, but not anything major. The majority of 'errors' are created by peoples' own minds far more than any other source, something that the bible itself or its teachings can hardly be held accountable for.

 

[there4eyeM]

Neither do I refer to myself as 'Christian'.
Acts 2:42 They continued steadfastly in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and prayer. 2:43 Fear came on every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 2:44 All who believed were together, and had all things in common. 2:45 They sold their possessions and goods, and distributed them to all, according as anyone had need.

 

[Pogo]

They were not in poverty just because they held everything in common. That is an absurd conclusion.
So-called Christians like to deny what Acts clearly says and shows because they have substituted a preferred set of precepts.

I'm not a Christian, I'm just literate and have no need to spin the allegories and moral parables to suit some personal propaganda agenda. They didn't live in a commune, period. Their 'church' at the time was the Porch of Solomon, where the Apostles taught and lectured. The wealthier Christians would contribute to the 'church' as needed in order to fulfill the tenets of taking care of widows and the like; they were not required to sell everything nor was the 'church' something where everybody's property was held in common. that isn't what the verse in Acts refer to, no matter how much you stomp your feet and moan about it. People can find more of what Peter taught, and sorry but it doesn't fit your spin even remotely.

As for the Ananias and Sapphire story, it's clear it's an allegorical reference meant to be of a companion to the Joseph Barnabas story, and like almost all NT writings makes points on a number of levels, broad and narrow, and nobody was actually literally 'killed'; it's a literary device.

Whether the description constitutes an "order" (commandment) or not is a moot point. It's not worded as such, nor would such a passage be the place for it, but "orders/commandments" are not the only way to teach moral or structural precepts. Clearly it's a descriptive passage which 'leads the horse to water' and offers an inspiration for the taking.

The Hutterites above represent the result of taking that inspiration as a guideline and living it, which is why I brought them up (and it pointedly distinguishes them from the Amish and Mennonites, who do not base their lifestyles on Acts). But whether it's expressed as a "law" or not is irrelevant to its point.

 

[there4eyeM]

They were not in poverty just because they held everything in common. That is an absurd conclusion.
So-called Christians like to deny what Acts clearly says and shows because they have substituted a preferred set of precepts.

I'm not a Christian, I'm just literate and have no need to spin the allegories and moral parables to suit some personal propaganda agenda. They didn't live in a commune, period. Their 'church' at the time was the Porch of Solomon, where the Apostles taught and lectured. The wealthier Christians would contribute to the 'church' as needed in order to fulfill the tenets of taking care of widows and the like; they were not required to sell everything nor was the 'church' something where everybody's property was held in common. that isn't what the verse in Acts refer to, no matter how much you stomp your feet and moan about it. People can find more of what Peter taught, and sorry but it doesn't fit your spin even remotely.

As for the Ananias and Sapphire story, it's clear it's an allegorical reference meant to be of a companion to the Joseph Barnabas story, and like almost all NT writings makes points on a number of levels, broad and narrow, and nobody was actually literally 'killed'; it's a literary device.

Whether the description constitutes an "order" (commandment) or not is a moot point. It's not worded as such, nor would such a passage be the place for it, but "orders/commandments" are not the only way to teach moral or structural precepts. Clearly it's a descriptive passage which 'leads the horse to water' and offers an inspiration for the taking.

The Hutterites above represent the result of taking that inspiration as a guideline and living it, which is why I brought them up (and it pointedly distinguishes them from the Amish and Mennonites, who do not base their lifestyle on Acts). But whether it's a "law" or not is irrelevant to its point.

And what EYE presented said nothing about it being a commandment, just that it was a fact of life and considered obvious to those at the start of Christianity.
That so many 'Christians' reject this today, grouping it as part and parcel of atheistic communism, shows where 'believers' have gone.

 

[Pogo]

They were not in poverty just because they held everything in common. That is an absurd conclusion.
So-called Christians like to deny what Acts clearly says and shows because they have substituted a preferred set of precepts.

I'm not a Christian, I'm just literate and have no need to spin the allegories and moral parables to suit some personal propaganda agenda. They didn't live in a commune, period. Their 'church' at the time was the Porch of Solomon, where the Apostles taught and lectured. The wealthier Christians would contribute to the 'church' as needed in order to fulfill the tenets of taking care of widows and the like; they were not required to sell everything nor was the 'church' something where everybody's property was held in common. that isn't what the verse in Acts refer to, no matter how much you stomp your feet and moan about it. People can find more of what Peter taught, and sorry but it doesn't fit your spin even remotely.

As for the Ananias and Sapphire story, it's clear it's an allegorical reference meant to be of a companion to the Joseph Barnabas story, and like almost all NT writings makes points on a number of levels, broad and narrow, and nobody was actually literally 'killed'; it's a literary device.

Whether the description constitutes an "order" (commandment) or not is a moot point. It's not worded as such, nor would such a passage be the place for it, but "orders/commandments" are not the only way to teach moral or structural precepts. Clearly it's a descriptive passage which 'leads the horse to water' and offers an inspiration for the taking.

The Hutterites above represent the result of taking that inspiration as a guideline and living it, which is why I brought them up (and it pointedly distinguishes them from the Amish and Mennonites, who do not base their lifestyle on Acts). But whether it's a "law" or not is irrelevant to its point.

And what EYE presented said nothing about it being a commandment, just that it was a fact of life and considered obvious to those at the start of Christianity.
That so many 'Christians' reject this today, grouping it as part and parcel of atheistic communism, shows where 'believers' have gone.

Who the **** is "EYE"? I used your post as a springboard for a point that had been invoked several times earlier, agonizing over whether or not Acts constitutes an "order". Don't know what "EYE" means.

But yes, this is the earliest root of Christian Communism. That's exactly what the Hutterites are doing.

 

[danielpalos]

To not take any Supremacists seriously if they resort to the Inferiority of Any fallacy for their Cause?

 

[Irish2]

The short answer to the OP is that it was the lie and the vanity behind it that was punished, not the act of withholding part of the proceeds in the parable. There was no compulsory requirement to give away all of one's wealth in the beginnings of the 'church', (Acts is also the book in which the word 'church' is used by the way), the 'crime' was lying to 'the Holy Spirit' at a critical time for the Christian sect, with the persecutions of the Apostles increasing in frequency and severity.

The parable of Ananias and Sapphira are presented in contrast to the humble Barnaba's selflessness and lack of vanity. They were attempting to aggrandize themselves and enhance their personal status in the eyes of their peers by the false claim of their generosity, hence it was both the lie and the petty vanity that is being 'punished' in the context of the church. If they hadn't of lied they would have suffered no consequences.

It's a moral allegory on the harmful effects of lying and vanity on the 'soul'. No one was required to impoverish themselves or give everything away to the 'church'; even tithing is not a compulsory requirement.

Where do you get the notion that this story is parable or allegory? I (as do most people I think) consider the book as supposedly telling the "true" history of the early church.

 

[Agit8r]

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

What do you get from these verses?

Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ac:4:33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Ac:4:34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac:4:35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac:4:36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Ac:4:37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Ac:5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac:5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ac:5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Ac:5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Ac:5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Ac:5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Ac:5 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Ac:5 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

Religion is socialistic. Newsflash.

 

[Irish2]

ACTS 4-5

Most claim it's an admonition not to lie to God. To me instant death seems very harsh and non-Jesus like and contrary to the forgiving nature of the New Testament.
Another reading gives you the nature of the early Church as a commune where all monies and goods were shared. This isn't the Christianity shared by most modern Christians.
My reading, more cynical I'm afraid, is that it reminds me of TV evangelists extorting money from their flocks through fear and intimidation.

What do you get from these verses?

Ac:4:32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Ac:4:33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Ac:4:34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac:4:35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ac:4:36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Ac:4:37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5:1: But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Ac:5:2: And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Ac:5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac:5:4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ac:5:5: And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
Ac:5:6: And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
Ac:5:7: And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Ac:5:8: And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Ac:5 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Ac:5 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Scholars believe "The Acts" had the same author as Luke and were written 80-90 CE and were revised well into the second century.

Religion is socialistic. Newsflash.

I guess the right wing Evangelicals and most other "Christians" missed that part.

 

[OZman]

I (as do most people I think) consider the book as supposedly telling the "true" history of the early church.

Here is a very different opinion on the beginnings of Christianity, it is interesting reading, certainly a new way to look at it. I do not prescribe to any version myself, it is purely research.

Essene and Christian Parallels and Commonalties

ESSENES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Irish2]

Then it is clear.

Yes, it's clear there is no command to sell everything and live in a commune; giving is purely voluntary. It would be impossible to fill all the covenants re caring for widows, children, and the poor if everybody are themselves living in poverty. Duh. You're reading into it what you personally want it to say, i.e. projecting your own ego into your interpretation, not what it actually says. Nowhere is poverty compulsory or even promoted.

I have to strongly disagree with your last statement..."Nowhere is poverty compulsory or even promoted."

In your Bible Matthew quotes Jesus himself saying "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." That's Christ himself promoting poverty isn't it? And there is a lot more throughout the New Testament discouraging the thirst for wealth. It seems to be one of the central themes of Christianity that modern Christians choose to turn a blind eye to. It's a concept promoted a lot more, than say...hate the homosexual. Here's a few more Bible verses urging believers to turn away from the love of money;

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Matthew 6:24 ESV
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
James 5:1-6 ESV
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. ...
Luke 18:25 ESV
For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
Luke 12:33 ESV
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.
Mark 12:41-44 ESV
And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”
1 Timothy 6:17 ESV
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.
1 Timothy 6:10 ESV
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
Hebrews 13:5 ESV
Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
Revelation 3:17 ESV
For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.
1 Timothy 6:9 ESV
But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.

 

[Treeshepherd]

I (as do most people I think) consider the book as supposedly telling the "true" history of the early church.

Here is a very different opinion on the beginnings of Christianity, it is interesting reading, certainly a new way to look at it. I do not prescribe to any version myself, it is purely research.

Essene and Christian Parallels and Commonalties

ESSENES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Beat me to it. I was going to mention that connection. Some say that John the Baptist was an Nazarene/Essene who left his isolated commune to prepare the Way.
"The first Christian sects could have been either Nazarenes like John the Baptist; or Ebionites, among whom were many of the relatives of Jesus; or Essenes (Iessaens) the Therapeutæ, healers, of which the Nazaria were a branch. All these sects, which only in the days of Irenæus began to be considered heretical, were more or less kabalistic. They believed in the expulsion of demons by magical incantations, and practiced this method. The Talmud indiscriminately calls all the Christians Nazari. Nazaraios means separation, alienation from other men."
JESUS A True Nazarene

“The Essenes lived on the shores of lakes and rivers, away from cities and towns, and practiced a communal way of life, sharing equally in everything. They were mainly agriculturists and arbor culturists, having a vast knowledge of crops, soil and climatic conditions which enabled them to grow a great variety of fruits and vegetables in comparatively desert areas and with a minimum of labor.

They had no servants or slaves and were said to have been the first people to condemn slavery both in theory and practice. There were no rich and no poor amongst them. They established their own economic system, based wholly on the Law, and showed that all man’s food and material needs can be attained without struggle, through knowledge of the Law.

They spent much time in study, both of ancient writings and special branches of learning, such as education, healing and astronomy. …..In the use of plants and herbs for healing man and beast they were likewise proficient.

They lived a simple regular life, rising each day before sunrise to study and commune with the forces of nature, bathing in cold water as a ritual and donning white garments. After their daily labor in the fields and vineyards they partook of their meals in silence, preceding and ending it with prayer. They were entirely vegetarian in their eating and never touched flesh foods nor fermented liquids. Their evenings were devoted to study and communion with the heavenly forces. …

Their way of life enabled them to live to advanced ages of 120 years or more and they were said to have marvelous strength and endurance. In all their activities they expressed creative love.”

In Hebrews 13, Paul explains that Jesus entered Jerusalem in triumph, but was betrayed and ended up dying outside the gates. The analogy is that it may be impossible to live the Christian life within the confines of ordinary society. Perhaps it is necessary to live in a separate encampment.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no lasting city, but we seek one that is yet to come.

 

[OZman]

I (as do most people I think) consider the book as supposedly telling the "true" history of the early church.

Here is a very different opinion on the beginnings of Christianity, it is interesting reading, certainly a new way to look at it. I do not prescribe to any version myself, it is purely research.

Essene and Christian Parallels and Commonalties

ESSENES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Beat me to it. I was going to mention that connection. Some say that John the Baptist was an Nazarene/Essene who left his isolated commune to prepare the Way.
"The first Christian sects could have been either Nazarenes like John the Baptist; or Ebionites, among whom were many of the relatives of Jesus; or Essenes (Iessaens) the Therapeutæ, healers, of which the Nazaria were a branch. All these sects, which only in the days of Irenæus began to be considered heretical, were more or less kabalistic. They believed in the expulsion of demons by magical incantations, and practiced this method. The Talmud indiscriminately calls all the Christians Nazari. Nazaraios means separation, alienation from other men."
JESUS A True Nazarene

“The Essenes lived on the shores of lakes and rivers, away from cities and towns, and practiced a communal way of life, sharing equally in everything. They were mainly agriculturists and arbor culturists, having a vast knowledge of crops, soil and climatic conditions which enabled them to grow a great variety of fruits and vegetables in comparatively desert areas and with a minimum of labor.

They had no servants or slaves and were said to have been the first people to condemn slavery both in theory and practice. There were no rich and no poor amongst them. They established their own economic system, based wholly on the Law, and showed that all man’s food and material needs can be attained without struggle, through knowledge of the Law.

They spent much time in study, both of ancient writings and special branches of learning, such as education, healing and astronomy. …..In the use of plants and herbs for healing man and beast they were likewise proficient.

They lived a simple regular life, rising each day before sunrise to study and commune with the forces of nature, bathing in cold water as a ritual and donning white garments. After their daily labor in the fields and vineyards they partook of their meals in silence, preceding and ending it with prayer. They were entirely vegetarian in their eating and never touched flesh foods nor fermented liquids. Their evenings were devoted to study and communion with the heavenly forces. …

Their way of life enabled them to live to advanced ages of 120 years or more and they were said to have marvelous strength and endurance. In all their activities they expressed creative love.”

In Hebrews 13, Paul explains that Jesus entered Jerusalem in triumph, but was betrayed and ended up dying outside the gates. The analogy is that it may be impossible to live the Christian life within the confines of ordinary society. Perhaps it is necessary to live in a separate encampment.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no lasting city, but we seek one that is yet to come.

Yes to my mind the Jewish Essene doctrine is the root for gentile Christianity.

 

[aris2chat]

I (as do most people I think) consider the book as supposedly telling the "true" history of the early church.

Here is a very different opinion on the beginnings of Christianity, it is interesting reading, certainly a new way to look at it. I do not prescribe to any version myself, it is purely research.

Essene and Christian Parallels and Commonalties

ESSENES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Beat me to it. I was going to mention that connection. Some say that John the Baptist was an Nazarene/Essene who left his isolated commune to prepare the Way.
"The first Christian sects could have been either Nazarenes like John the Baptist; or Ebionites, among whom were many of the relatives of Jesus; or Essenes (Iessaens) the Therapeutæ, healers, of which the Nazaria were a branch. All these sects, which only in the days of Irenæus began to be considered heretical, were more or less kabalistic. They believed in the expulsion of demons by magical incantations, and practiced this method. The Talmud indiscriminately calls all the Christians Nazari. Nazaraios means separation, alienation from other men."
JESUS A True Nazarene

“The Essenes lived on the shores of lakes and rivers, away from cities and towns, and practiced a communal way of life, sharing equally in everything. They were mainly agriculturists and arbor culturists, having a vast knowledge of crops, soil and climatic conditions which enabled them to grow a great variety of fruits and vegetables in comparatively desert areas and with a minimum of labor.

They had no servants or slaves and were said to have been the first people to condemn slavery both in theory and practice. There were no rich and no poor amongst them. They established their own economic system, based wholly on the Law, and showed that all man’s food and material needs can be attained without struggle, through knowledge of the Law.

They spent much time in study, both of ancient writings and special branches of learning, such as education, healing and astronomy. …..In the use of plants and herbs for healing man and beast they were likewise proficient.

They lived a simple regular life, rising each day before sunrise to study and commune with the forces of nature, bathing in cold water as a ritual and donning white garments. After their daily labor in the fields and vineyards they partook of their meals in silence, preceding and ending it with prayer. They were entirely vegetarian in their eating and never touched flesh foods nor fermented liquids. Their evenings were devoted to study and communion with the heavenly forces. …

Their way of life enabled them to live to advanced ages of 120 years or more and they were said to have marvelous strength and endurance. In all their activities they expressed creative love.”

In Hebrews 13, Paul explains that Jesus entered Jerusalem in triumph, but was betrayed and ended up dying outside the gates. The analogy is that it may be impossible to live the Christian life within the confines of ordinary society. Perhaps it is necessary to live in a separate encampment.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no lasting city, but we seek one that is yet to come.

Yes to my mind the Jewish Essene doctrine is the root for gentile Christianity.

The Essenes and Christianity

 

[OZman]

I (as do most people I think) consider the book as supposedly telling the "true" history of the early church.

Here is a very different opinion on the beginnings of Christianity, it is interesting reading, certainly a new way to look at it. I do not prescribe to any version myself, it is purely research.

Essene and Christian Parallels and Commonalties

ESSENES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Beat me to it. I was going to mention that connection. Some say that John the Baptist was an Nazarene/Essene who left his isolated commune to prepare the Way.
"The first Christian sects could have been either Nazarenes like John the Baptist; or Ebionites, among whom were many of the relatives of Jesus; or Essenes (Iessaens) the Therapeutæ, healers, of which the Nazaria were a branch. All these sects, which only in the days of Irenæus began to be considered heretical, were more or less kabalistic. They believed in the expulsion of demons by magical incantations, and practiced this method. The Talmud indiscriminately calls all the Christians Nazari. Nazaraios means separation, alienation from other men."
JESUS A True Nazarene

“The Essenes lived on the shores of lakes and rivers, away from cities and towns, and practiced a communal way of life, sharing equally in everything. They were mainly agriculturists and arbor culturists, having a vast knowledge of crops, soil and climatic conditions which enabled them to grow a great variety of fruits and vegetables in comparatively desert areas and with a minimum of labor.

They had no servants or slaves and were said to have been the first people to condemn slavery both in theory and practice. There were no rich and no poor amongst them. They established their own economic system, based wholly on the Law, and showed that all man’s food and material needs can be attained without struggle, through knowledge of the Law.

They spent much time in study, both of ancient writings and special branches of learning, such as education, healing and astronomy. …..In the use of plants and herbs for healing man and beast they were likewise proficient.

They lived a simple regular life, rising each day before sunrise to study and commune with the forces of nature, bathing in cold water as a ritual and donning white garments. After their daily labor in the fields and vineyards they partook of their meals in silence, preceding and ending it with prayer. They were entirely vegetarian in their eating and never touched flesh foods nor fermented liquids. Their evenings were devoted to study and communion with the heavenly forces. …

Their way of life enabled them to live to advanced ages of 120 years or more and they were said to have marvelous strength and endurance. In all their activities they expressed creative love.”

In Hebrews 13, Paul explains that Jesus entered Jerusalem in triumph, but was betrayed and ended up dying outside the gates. The analogy is that it may be impossible to live the Christian life within the confines of ordinary society. Perhaps it is necessary to live in a separate encampment.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no lasting city, but we seek one that is yet to come.

Yes to my mind the Jewish Essene doctrine is the root for gentile Christianity.

The Essenes and Christianity

Sorry I do not waste my time reading Christian apologists, I do not find them a source of credible information.

I expect Christians to refute the idea of the Essenes being the root of their beliefs, but this is what my own research has lead me to believe.