Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

[Luissa]

Using the Us method for measuring gestation? Because that would be about a week after someone finds out.

Facts are not dependent on the outcome you desire. The medical fact is that we have an independent, human life at about 6 weeks gestation.

You didn't answer my question.
I am guessing you don't understand that there are two ways of measuring a pregnancy.
When using the US method you are pregnant 40 weeks, using the method most other countries use you are pregnant 38 weeks.
In the US they go from the day you started your last period, which is obviously not When you conceived.
When I found I was pregnant they said I was 5 weeks pregnant, when in reality I had only been pregnant for 2 to 3 weeks depending on when I ovulated.

 

[catzmeow]

To say that something isn't human until 22 weeks...unless a brave doctor can somehow save a kid born at 21 weeks...then its human at 21 weeks...isn't really the argument that I would go with...

Strawman. The fetus is genetically human, but lacks sentience...can't feel pain, isn't self-aware, isn't THINKING. A mouse has more sentience than a fetus.

Abortion sucks. I get that. But, it beats some of the alternatives.

 

[Uncensored2008]

No. At 6 weeks, the fetal "brain" is beginning to form, but it does not function as you imagine a human brain functions. There are no discernible "brain waves."

No brain waves, are absolutely present and measurable. What you claim is false. Medical science isn't kind to abortion

Nor has the fetus developed the ability to feel pain.

Based on abortionist claims?

That doesn't occur until around the 22-23rd weeks. Up until that point, the nerves aren't really connected to the "brain."

What you claim is not fact. But if it were, does that mean that we can kill at will anyone with a spinal injury? Their nerves aren't really connect to the "brain." Besides, they're inconvenient.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The line cannot be drawn at 6 weeks, because most women don't even know they are pregnant then!

Facts don't concern themselves with what women know or don't know.

You can demand "fire cannot burn because some women don't even know flames are hot."

 

[Ravi]

Then remove it and let it live.

Really? Surely you see what a silly "determiner" you've just set up...but I'll play along...

See, I completely agree. This is why I don't understand why people get so mad when I tell people I'm planning to leave my toddler alone for the two weeks my husband and I go on vacation. If the little urchin is human - he'll survive just fine for two weeks without me. And if he doesn't...well, then he wasn't human and my husband and I did nothing wrong...

Or...See, I completely agree. My best friend was in the hospital a few years ago for Toxic Shock Syndrome. When her organs starting shutting down they put her in a medically induced coma to try to stop the damage and I was all like, "No way...turn those machines off. If she can't make it on her own...then she isn't really a human...and I'm not about to be best friends with a non-human!"

Just because a human needs support to live doesn't mean they aren't human. And implying that because a fetus isn't capable of living outside the womb is a dangerous determiner for pro-life supporters to go by since the time when a baby can survive with medical intervention outside the mother's body is getting pushed up all the time...its currently around 22 weeks.

To say that something isn't human until 22 weeks...unless a brave doctor can somehow save a kid born at 21 weeks...then its human at 21 weeks...isn't really the argument that I would go with...especially since you're NEVER really going to be able to come to a firm determiner of where life begins that everyone will agree on anyway.

I'm not the one that claimed that a six week old fetus was an independent human life.

 

[Luissa]

I don't get the pain argument. Do many people remember pain they felt in the womb?

 

[catzmeow]

No brain waves, are absolutely present and measurable. What you claim is false. Medical science isn't kind to abortion

Evidence? You aren't a doctor.

Based on abortionist claims?

Based upon child development websites for pregnant moms.

What you claim is not fact. But if it were, does that mean that we can kill at will anyone with a spinal injury? Their nerves aren't really connect to the "brain." Besides, they're inconvenient.

If it isn't fact, then you can surely rebutt it with evidence.

At what point in fetal development does the fetus sense and become consciously aware of pain? Not before the 3rd trimester according to a review of literature and research on the subject.

Pain is an emotional and psychological experience that requires conscious recognition of a noxious stimulus. Consequently, the capacity for conscious perception of pain can arise only after thalamocortical pathways begin to function, which may occur in the third trimester around 29 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, based on the limited data available. Small-scale histological studies of human fetuses have found that thalamocortical fibers begin to form between 23 and 30 weeks’ gestational age, but these studies did not specifically examine thalamocortical pathways active in pain perception.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?volume=294&issue=8&page=947

You aren't operating off of facts here, you're operating off of your preconceived notion of what is happening based upon anti-abortion rhetoric.

 

[Gem]

Strawman. The fetus is genetically human, but lacks sentience...can't feel pain, isn't self-aware, isn't THINKING. A mouse has more sentience than a fetus.

Abortion sucks. I get that. But, it beats some of the alternatives.

Numerous studies dispute your claims - not to mention the fact that we consistently protect the life of non-self-aware individuals.

As to your last sentence...you assume I'm anti-abortion, and you're wrong. What I am is against the "hey, we're just sucking out a couple of your extra cells" bullshit that some in the pro-choice movement think makes an effective argument...and it doesn't. Polls show that the majority of Americans identify as "pro-choice" but with significant qualifications such as "only during the 1st trimester" or "only in cases of rape, incest, life of mother."

The bottom line is, the faster that we are honest about the fact that we are, indeed, ending a human life during its earliest stages of development...then we can nip the endless "Its a life! No its not! Its a life! No its not!" nonsense that makes up 99% of the abortion debate and everyone knows will get us NOWHERE...and debate why allowing abortion to be legal in certain situations is necessary.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Especially when using the US measuring system, that uses first day of your last period to measure how far long you are.

Words have meanings - gestation is a defined term.

6 weeks gestation means 6 weeks from fertilization.

 

[catzmeow]

Numerous studies dispute your claims - not to mention the fact that we consistently protect the life of non-self-aware individuals.

I don't protect the lives of permanently vegetative humans, I think they have stopped being human. And, the studies on the subject are summarized here:

JAMA Network | JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association | Fetal PainA Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence

Pain is an emotional and psychological experience that requires conscious recognition of a noxious stimulus. Consequently, the capacity for conscious perception of pain can arise only after thalamocortical pathways begin to function, which may occur in the third trimester around 29 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, based on the limited data available. Small-scale histological studies of human fetuses have found that thalamocortical fibers begin to form between 23 and 30 weeks’ gestational age, but these studies did not specifically examine thalamocortical pathways active in pain perception.

I notice that you didn't link to the studies that prove your point. Edited.

As to your last sentence...you assume I'm anti-abortion, and you're wrong. What I am is against the "hey, we're just sucking out a couple of your extra cells" bullshit that some in the pro-choice movement think makes an effective argument...and it doesn't. Polls show that the majority of Americans identify as "pro-choice" but with significant qualifications such as "only during the 1st trimester" or "only in cases of rape, incest, life of mother."

We know more about fetal development than we've ever known. The simple fact is that a fetus is not developed enough to be human, as most of us think of the concept, until a particular point. How that makes you feel isn't my problem, because I don't have to persuade you. Abortion is legal, and is likely to remain legal forever. It is not in anyone's best interests to have an additional million unwanted children dumped into the U.S. annually. Our social welfare systems can't handle the unwanted children who've already been born.

 

[Uncensored2008]

When they stop being sentient, we remove them from life support. This is known as "permanent vegetative state."

Individuals are not sentient, species are. Humans are sentient as a species. Edited.

 

[catzmeow]

When they stop being sentient, we remove them from life support. This is known as "permanent vegetative state."

Individuals are not sentient, species are. Humans are sentient as a species. The presence of Obamabots does not alter this, though they may not meet the criterion individually.

Now that your other claims have been proven false, you've shifted the goalpost.

False. Humans stop being sentient when their brains are not functional. Sentience is a conscious characteristic, it is not present when the brain is not functional.

Nor is it a genetic one. Unless you'd like to prove that claim?

 

[Uncensored2008]

You didn't answer my question.
I am guessing you don't understand that there are two ways of measuring a pregnancy.

I'm guessing that some are so fanatical in support of abortion that words like "gestation," which define the method of measuring pregnancy, fly right past.

When using the US method you are pregnant 40 weeks, using the method most other countries use you are pregnant 38 weeks.
In the US they go from the day you started your last period, which is obviously not When you conceived.

When I found I was pregnant they said I was 5 weeks pregnant, when in reality I had only been pregnant for 2 to 3 weeks depending on when I ovulated.

When I used the word "gestation,' what I meant was "gestation."

 

[Ravi]

When they stop being sentient, we remove them from life support. This is known as "permanent vegetative state."

Individuals are not sentient, species are. Humans are sentient as a species. Edited.

Definition of SENTIENT
: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions

Now you're just being silly.

 

[catzmeow]

Tell me, uncensored. How long would you want to be maintained on life support in a permanently vegetative state?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Strawman. The fetus is genetically human, but lacks sentience...can't feel pain, isn't self-aware, isn't THINKING.

There we go.

As long as we can confer or revoke "sentience" then any atrocity is permissible.

The logic that every slaughter in history is based on. If the Kulacks are rats, then why should they not be killed.

A mouse has more sentience than a fetus.

Nice.

Gee, no one has dehumanized victims and called them "rats" before.

Edited. Only her abortionist knows for sure.

Abortion sucks.

It appears to be a religion to many.

I get that. But, it beats some of the alternatives.

Life?

Administrative Note. Stop with the Digs ans Put Downs in this Forum

 

[Uncensored2008]

I don't get the pain argument. Do many people remember pain they felt in the womb?

Not if they are killed in the womb.

 

[catzmeow]

Strawman. The fetus is genetically human, but lacks sentience...can't feel pain, isn't self-aware, isn't THINKING.

There we go.

As long as we can confer or revoke "sentience" then any atrocity is permissible.

The logic that every slaughter in history is based on. If the Kulacks are rats, then why should they not be killed.

A mouse has more sentience than a fetus.

Nice.

Gee, no one has dehumanized victims and called them "rats" before.

Edited Only her abortionist knows for sure.

Abortion sucks.

It appears to be a religion to many.

I get that. But, it beats some of the alternatives.

Life?

Edited.



I think I'm beginning to like the CDZ.

 

[Gem]

The simple fact is that a fetus is not developed enough to be human, as most of us think of the concept, until a particular point.

"As most of us think of the concept," puts the lie to your statement. You are qualifying that because make a claim that "most people" agree with you...which may or may not be true...that a fetus isn't human. This is just silly....but in the end, it really doesn't matter, because your next statement appears to prove that you aren't really interested in discussing the issue with someone who might disagree with you.

How that makes you feel isn't my problem, because I don't have to persuade you. Abortion is legal, and is likely to remain legal forever. It is not in anyone's best interests to have an additional million unwanted children dumped into the U.S. annually. Our social welfare systems can't handle the unwanted children who've already been born.

I've stated that I support legal abortion, repeatedly in this debate. But your statement above amounts to little more than..."Nah nah ne nah nah...abortion's legal so deal with it." Which is ludicrous, since I support it remaining legal...you just aren't willing to hear it as you continue to do exactly what stops pro-choice supporters from moving this debate forward in a useful way.

 

[catzmeow]

The simple fact is that a fetus is not developed enough to be human, as most of us think of the concept, until a particular point.

If you'd bothered to read the link study, you'd realize that my views were shaped by brain development research and legal practice in dealing with brain injury.

I've stated that I support legal abortion, repeatedly in this debate. But your statement above amounts to little more than..."Nah nah ne nah nah...abortion's legal so deal with it." Which is ludicrous, since I support it remaining legal...you just aren't willing to hear it as you continue to do exactly what stops pro-choice supporters from moving this debate forward in a useful way.

If you have an argument, put forward your argument. I'm not really interested in your ideas on how I should spin my own to be better in line with your opinions.

But thanks for the feedback. It was...semi-interesting. You've provided no evidence of your points and claims, and you aren't a subject matter expert. Thus, your opinions don't carry much weight with me.