Where Had DeCentralized Government Actually Worked?

[IndependntLogic]

I see this all the time. Tea Partiers and Libertarians screaming about less government, or taking away every single power from the Fed that isn't specifically defined (as per their personal interpretation, that is).

After listening to you guys, asking lots of questions, you've made a great case!
Apparently, you're not all the hostile whackjobs shown on MSNBC!

So while I can appreciate saving $$$ by eliminating duplication, we seem to diverge when it comes to a lot of major agencies. I am former military intel so there is no way in hell you are going to convince me that we need to dump the CIA. Consolidate DHS, FBI, NSA & CIA? Sure okay. Eliminate? Nope.
I've already stated my reasons why I would also keep the following: FAA, USDA, NRC, EPA etc...

All warmed up? Good! Takes me long enough to get to the danm point, doesnt it? Sorry. So I've been to and lived in countries all over the world, that had little centralized government. What did I see? Almost no middle class and usually (dont know why there's a correlation) higher crime rates and a rather overt corporatacry that was pretty oppressive and destructive.
So where are your examples of decentralized government working these miraculous wonders for the citizenry? Seems to me, a dozen countries in Africa would be HQ for every major corp in the world! After all, they don't have that pesky government thing goin on!
So examples of where in modern history has what you want, worked in the long term or even at all?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

We beat the world's preeminent military under the decentralized government established by the Articles of Confederation. Certainly we had help from France, and wars are of course devastating in just about every way possible, but it seemed to work out pretty good all things considered. They even kept the Articles until the monarchists forced the Constitution on us.

 

[Oddball]

Where Had DeCentralized Government Actually Worked?

America, from the founding up until the onset of the progressive era.

 

[IndependntLogic]

We beat the world's preeminent military under the decentralized government established by the Articles of Confederation. Certainly we had help from France, and wars are of course devastating in just about every way possible, but it seemed to work out pretty good all things considered. They even kept the Articles until the monarchists forced the Constitution on us.

Um, there was that phrase in there: "Modern History".

I mean sure okay. When there were 100 miles of land for every citizen, no such thing as toxic waste, no stock market, no internet, no nukes, no lobbyists, no unions, no police, no cars, no planes....
um yeah, it was different. Gee. There's a shocker.

But there are a LOT of countries with little or no centralized government in the world right now, and there are tons of examples if we go back say, 40 years. So which one of those countries was or is proving your point?

 

[ShackledNation]

Where has it worked? I suggest you open a history book. As for Africa, Libyans are not revolting against a limited decentralized government.

Hitler said himself that he hated decentralized federalist systems. Why? Because they would make it difficult to consolidate power. Dictatorship arises under central authority. For a modern example, look at North Korea.

Please show me a specific example of decentralized government in modern history, and how decentralization is the cause and not some other factor.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

We beat the world's preeminent military under the decentralized government established by the Articles of Confederation. Certainly we had help from France, and wars are of course devastating in just about every way possible, but it seemed to work out pretty good all things considered. They even kept the Articles until the monarchists forced the Constitution on us.

Um, there was that phrase in there: "Modern History".

I mean sure okay. When there were 100 miles of land for every citizen, no such thing as toxic waste, no stock market, no internet, no nukes, no lobbyists, no unions, no police, no cars, no planes....
um yeah, it was different. Gee. There's a shocker.

But there are a LOT of countries with little or no centralized government in the world right now, and there are tons of examples if we go back say, 40 years. So which one of those countries was or is proving your point?

So basically you just want somebody to come in here and try to defend tribal societies in Africa, because there are no case studies when the trend of the 20th and 21st-centuries has been a rush to the super-state.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Where has it worked? I suggest you open a history book. As for Africa, Libyans are not revolting against a limited decentralized government.

Hitler said himself that he hated decentralized federalist systems. Why? Because they would make it difficult to consolidate power. Dictatorship arises under central authority. For a modern example, look at North Korea.

Please show me a specific example of decentralized government in modern history, and how decentralization is the cause and not some other factor.

So you got nothing. Not one example of a decentrlized government working out well for the people in the last 40 years. Okay.

An example? Sure. I lived in The Ukraine. Very little government there. Almost zero regs on corps, the envirnoment etc... Although I had a blast (for other reasons), I decided to move back to the good ol' USA.
The fact that there was no centralized government and very little regulation is definitely known to be cause of a lot of their problems. Are there other factors? Only a complete moron would say that an entire nation's problems were all due to one factor. So yes Captain Obvious, there are other factors that contribute to their problems. But the fact remains that Ukrainians know that many of their problems are directly attributable to the lack of government.

So your turn. Instead of the obvious dodges (You went with Hitler and NK? Really? So predictible. You might as well have been a Lib discussing the GOP ...), where are these utopian societies of regulatis non gratis? There are at least a dozen countries that have very little, if any government in the world. Which ones are the shining bastions of what your idiology will achieve for America?
Prediction? Dodge the question again. More ridiculous projections (always love a nice Hitler reference though), change the subject again or Cut & Run...

 

[IndependntLogic]

We beat the world's preeminent military under the decentralized government established by the Articles of Confederation. Certainly we had help from France, and wars are of course devastating in just about every way possible, but it seemed to work out pretty good all things considered. They even kept the Articles until the monarchists forced the Constitution on us.

Um, there was that phrase in there: "Modern History".

I mean sure okay. When there were 100 miles of land for every citizen, no such thing as toxic waste, no stock market, no internet, no nukes, no lobbyists, no unions, no police, no cars, no planes....
um yeah, it was different. Gee. There's a shocker.

But there are a LOT of countries with little or no centralized government in the world right now, and there are tons of examples if we go back say, 40 years. So which one of those countries was or is proving your point?

So basically you just want somebody to come in here and try to defend tribal societies in Africa, because there are no case studies when the trend of the 20th and 21st-centuries has been a rush to the super-state.

Ah, the predictible. When you ass is owned on a topic or issue, project something onto the other debater.

No. Let me dumb this down. Where has less government worked in the last 40 years - or is working now? There are dozens of countries in existence now with almost no corporate regualtion etc... which ones exemplify what you want for America?
Hell, I even gave you a free example with the Ukraine! If you want, you can start with why you would like us to be like them...

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Um, there was that phrase in there: "Modern History".

I mean sure okay. When there were 100 miles of land for every citizen, no such thing as toxic waste, no stock market, no internet, no nukes, no lobbyists, no unions, no police, no cars, no planes....
um yeah, it was different. Gee. There's a shocker.

But there are a LOT of countries with little or no centralized government in the world right now, and there are tons of examples if we go back say, 40 years. So which one of those countries was or is proving your point?

So basically you just want somebody to come in here and try to defend tribal societies in Africa, because there are no case studies when the trend of the 20th and 21st-centuries has been a rush to the super-state.

Ah, the predictible. When you ass is owned on a topic or issue, project something onto the other debater.

No. Let me dumb this down. Where has less government worked in the last 40 years - or is working now? There are dozens of countries in existence now with almost no corporate regualtion etc... which ones exemplify what you want for America?
Hell, I even gave you a free example with the Ukraine! If you want, you can start with why you would like us to be like them...

If the Ukraine is an example of "decentralized" government then I'm a penguin.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I see this all the time. Tea Partiers and Libertarians screaming about less government, or taking away every single power from the Fed that isn't specifically defined (as per their personal interpretation, that is).

After listening to you guys, asking lots of questions, you've made a great case!
Apparently, you're not all the hostile whackjobs shown on MSNBC!

So while I can appreciate saving $$$ by eliminating duplication, we seem to diverge when it comes to a lot of major agencies. I am former military intel so there is no way in hell you are going to convince me that we need to dump the CIA. Consolidate DHS, FBI, NSA & CIA? Sure okay. Eliminate? Nope.
I've already stated my reasons why I would also keep the following: FAA, USDA, NRC, EPA etc...

All warmed up? Good! Takes me long enough to get to the danm point, doesnt it? Sorry. So I've been to and lived in countries all over the world, that had little centralized government. What did I see? Almost no middle class and usually (dont know why there's a correlation) higher crime rates and a rather overt corporatacry that was pretty oppressive and destructive.
So where are your examples of decentralized government working these miraculous wonders for the citizenry? Seems to me, a dozen countries in Africa would be HQ for every major corp in the world! After all, they don't have that pesky government thing goin on!
So examples of where in modern history has what you want, worked in the long term or even at all?

Welcome to the board.

Although it is your thread, I'd suggest that the query had a more American flavor if posed as a question of the intent of our Founders.

This nation was designed with a particular relationship between federal, 'centralized,' and the sovereign entities, the states.

The Constitution is very clear as to which functions should be the province of each. And many today believe that a reevaluation of that relationship is in order.

"Before one misreads the intentions of the Founders as envisioning a great and powerful central government, consider James Madison’s writing of Federalist 39: “Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a FEDERAL, and not a NATIONAL constitution.” The Avalon Project : Federalist No 39

 

[Woyzeck]

Where Had DeCentralized Government Actually Worked?

America, from the founding up until the onset of the progressive era.

What's that make the Civil War?

 

[bripat9643]

If the Ukraine is an example of "decentralized" government then I'm a penguin.

Agreed, Ukraine had a communist government until quite recently, and I'm including a significant period after they separated from the Soviet Union.

How does it qualify as "decentralized?" No way, as far as I understand. All decisions for the entire country are made in Kiev.

 

[bripat9643]

Where Had DeCentralized Government Actually Worked?

America, from the founding up until the onset of the progressive era.

What's that make the Civil War?

The Civil War marked a vast increase in the power of the central government, but afterwards it was still 100 times less powerful than our current federal government.

 

[Oddball]

Where Had DeCentralized Government Actually Worked?

America, from the founding up until the onset of the progressive era.

What's that make the Civil War?

Very decentralized.

Even though Lincoln created America's original industrial army, the men for it still came form the militias of the several states...Ditto the Confederacy.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If the Ukraine is an example of "decentralized" government then I'm a penguin.

Agreed, Ukraine had a communist government until quite recently, and I'm including a significant period after they separated from the Soviet Union.

How does it qualify as "decentralized?" No way, as far as I understand. All decisions for the entire country are made in Kiev.

The truth is that there are no decentralized states that fit the criteria for this discussion aside from tribal societies.

 

[jillian]

I see this all the time. Tea Partiers and Libertarians screaming about less government, or taking away every single power from the Fed that isn't specifically defined (as per their personal interpretation, that is).

After listening to you guys, asking lots of questions, you've made a great case!
Apparently, you're not all the hostile whackjobs shown on MSNBC!

So while I can appreciate saving $$$ by eliminating duplication, we seem to diverge when it comes to a lot of major agencies. I am former military intel so there is no way in hell you are going to convince me that we need to dump the CIA. Consolidate DHS, FBI, NSA & CIA? Sure okay. Eliminate? Nope.
I've already stated my reasons why I would also keep the following: FAA, USDA, NRC, EPA etc...

All warmed up? Good! Takes me long enough to get to the danm point, doesnt it? Sorry. So I've been to and lived in countries all over the world, that had little centralized government. What did I see? Almost no middle class and usually (dont know why there's a correlation) higher crime rates and a rather overt corporatacry that was pretty oppressive and destructive.
So where are your examples of decentralized government working these miraculous wonders for the citizenry? Seems to me, a dozen countries in Africa would be HQ for every major corp in the world! After all, they don't have that pesky government thing goin on!
So examples of where in modern history has what you want, worked in the long term or even at all?

The pretend constitutionalists like to forget that we're not set up for de-centralized government. if we were, we'd still be living under the articles of confederation.

 

[Oddball]

I see this all the time. Tea Partiers and Libertarians screaming about less government, or taking away every single power from the Fed that isn't specifically defined (as per their personal interpretation, that is).

After listening to you guys, asking lots of questions, you've made a great case!
Apparently, you're not all the hostile whackjobs shown on MSNBC!

So while I can appreciate saving $$$ by eliminating duplication, we seem to diverge when it comes to a lot of major agencies. I am former military intel so there is no way in hell you are going to convince me that we need to dump the CIA. Consolidate DHS, FBI, NSA & CIA? Sure okay. Eliminate? Nope.
I've already stated my reasons why I would also keep the following: FAA, USDA, NRC, EPA etc...

All warmed up? Good! Takes me long enough to get to the danm point, doesnt it? Sorry. So I've been to and lived in countries all over the world, that had little centralized government. What did I see? Almost no middle class and usually (dont know why there's a correlation) higher crime rates and a rather overt corporatacry that was pretty oppressive and destructive.
So where are your examples of decentralized government working these miraculous wonders for the citizenry? Seems to me, a dozen countries in Africa would be HQ for every major corp in the world! After all, they don't have that pesky government thing goin on!
So examples of where in modern history has what you want, worked in the long term or even at all?

The pretend constitutionalists like to forget that we're not set up for de-centralized government. if we were, we'd still be living under the articles of confederation.

An intent for decentralized governance seems pretty crystal clear here:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Um, there was that phrase in there: "Modern History".

I mean sure okay. When there were 100 miles of land for every citizen, no such thing as toxic waste, no stock market, no internet, no nukes, no lobbyists, no unions, no police, no cars, no planes....
um yeah, it was different. Gee. There's a shocker.

But there are a LOT of countries with little or no centralized government in the world right now, and there are tons of examples if we go back say, 40 years. So which one of those countries was or is proving your point?

So basically you just want somebody to come in here and try to defend tribal societies in Africa, because there are no case studies when the trend of the 20th and 21st-centuries has been a rush to the super-state.

Ah, the predictible. When you ass is owned on a topic or issue, project something onto the other debater.

No. Let me dumb this down. Where has less government worked in the last 40 years - or is working now? There are dozens of countries in existence now with almost no corporate regualtion etc... which ones exemplify what you want for America?
Hell, I even gave you a free example with the Ukraine! If you want, you can start with why you would like us to be like them...

Why don't you take you're passive-aggressive B.S. elsewhere? You come of with this gee wiz, you guys are so nice here and then pull this crap.

 

[jillian]

I see this all the time. Tea Partiers and Libertarians screaming about less government, or taking away every single power from the Fed that isn't specifically defined (as per their personal interpretation, that is).

After listening to you guys, asking lots of questions, you've made a great case!
Apparently, you're not all the hostile whackjobs shown on MSNBC!

So while I can appreciate saving $$$ by eliminating duplication, we seem to diverge when it comes to a lot of major agencies. I am former military intel so there is no way in hell you are going to convince me that we need to dump the CIA. Consolidate DHS, FBI, NSA & CIA? Sure okay. Eliminate? Nope.
I've already stated my reasons why I would also keep the following: FAA, USDA, NRC, EPA etc...

All warmed up? Good! Takes me long enough to get to the danm point, doesnt it? Sorry. So I've been to and lived in countries all over the world, that had little centralized government. What did I see? Almost no middle class and usually (dont know why there's a correlation) higher crime rates and a rather overt corporatacry that was pretty oppressive and destructive.
So where are your examples of decentralized government working these miraculous wonders for the citizenry? Seems to me, a dozen countries in Africa would be HQ for every major corp in the world! After all, they don't have that pesky government thing goin on!
So examples of where in modern history has what you want, worked in the long term or even at all?

The pretend constitutionalists like to forget that we're not set up for de-centralized government. if we were, we'd still be living under the articles of confederation.

An intent for decentralized governance seems pretty crystal clear here:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

and that's been construed by the court, how? i'm going to guess you have no authority for that construction. if you do, feel free.

and if you were correct, then why bother dissolving the articles of confederation. seems to me you're fighting a battle that was lost to the states' rights people during the civil war and earlier.

 

[Oddball]

Don't give a flying fuck about what the judicial oligarchs and tyrants say....The intent is clear.