Zone1 Where does it say in the Bible only adults can be baptized?

[buttercup]

Unkotare, grow up.

I can't believe you're a school teacher. You've been acting like a 14 year old with your incessant trolling and nastiness, as opposed to ever engaging in an actual discussion or debate.

But anyway, thanks for the reaction points!

 

[irosie91]

I am glad to know that buttercup is a school teacher

 

[frigidweirdo]

It doesn't. I have read the Bible. I know it's a shock to hear a Catholic say that, but it's a true story. I've actually read or heard it over and over because the Catholic Church gives us scripture every day, not just on Sunday.

Anyhow, it does not say in the Bible you can't baptize infants and it is inferred that infants were indeed baptized. In Acts, it says "whole households" were baptized. Most households had infants and/or children.

Jesus said to let the children come to Him.

etc

Does it matter? Just do what you want to do. You want to dunk your head in water, do it. Doesn't change anything, does it?

 

[buttercup]

I know what you said and I accept what you said. You teach children about God, but you stop at Baptism and wait for them to make their own decision about salvation. That's fine, that's how some see salvation. All I am pointing out is that Catholics see it differently. I am not saying one is right and one is wrong...but you seem to be saying that. I am saying the Holy Spirit can work with both.

I am saying that Catholic teaching is the Holy Spirit and God's grace are especially present in Baptism. For those who believe salvation is a process (the Way of Salvation) not a one-time event, baptism of infants is logical.

For those who believe salvation is a one-time event, or once saved always saved, it is logical to wait until adulthood. I understand you believe the scriptures you select lean toward salvation being a one-time event. I don't believe they lean that way at all--sometimes they are even talking about something entirely different from salvation. Doesn't matter. You still believe salvation is a one-time event and that your children will have this event when they are ready. That is your choice. It's not that I think it is wrong, I simply know it is not my choice, based on scripture as I understand them and based on my own experiences.

I know Catholics see it differently, that's what I said earlier. But with a topic as important as salvation, which has eternal consequences... I don't think it's something anyone should take lightly or think of as a matter of mere opinion. It's not a matter of opinion, there is an actual truth. And as the law of non-contradiction states, two contradictory truths cannot both be right at the same time.

In response to your last paragraph.... My view is that justification is a one-time event. Some people use the words justification and salvation interchangeably. But salvation overall is about more than justification. It also includes sanctification and glorification.

This article explains it, and I'll post an excerpt:

First, we should remember what these words mean. Here are some definitions:

• Justification is “an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ.” We are justified, or declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation.

• Sanctification is “the process by which Christians are set apart for God from the rest of the world, or the process by which Christians are made holy.” Progressive, or experiential, sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one’s life. It is the same as growing in the Lord (2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity.

• Glorification is “God’s final removal of sin from the life of the saints so that they stand faultless before Him in glory in eternity” (Romans 8:18; 2 Corinthians 4:17). At Christ’s coming, the glory of God (Romans 5:2)—His honor, praise, majesty, and holiness—will be realized in us; we will have direct and unhindered access to God’s presence, and we will enjoy holy communion with Him throughout eternity.

How are justification, sanctification, and glorification related? | GotQuestions.org

How are justification, sanctification, and glorification related? What are the connections between justification, sanctification, and glorification?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Unkotare]

...It's not a matter of opinion, there is an actual truth. And as the law of non-contradiction states, two contradictory truths cannot both be right at the same time.
...

"I have to win! That's what faith is all about! I win! I win!"

 

[buttercup]

Catholics see Original Sin as the propensity of humans to choose disobedience. I have heard the description of washing away Original Sin. I've also been taught (and I prefer this) as describing baptism as turning from disobedience (worldly ways) to obedience (God's ways). Either way the way/sin of Adam and Eve is rejected and the way/obedience of Christ is undertaken/embraced.

Ok, if you see baptism as turning from disobedience, how can a baby do that? A baby can do that many years later, when they are no longer a baby and learn (through life experience) that obedience to God is key. But can an infant understand the concept of obedience... or salvation?

Honestly, I don't want to keep pressing the point. But you did share your view on it, so it is hard to not ask you that question.

 

[irosie91]

Does it matter? Just do what you want to do. You want to dunk your head in water, do it. Doesn't change anything, does it?

PS whole households back then may not have included children. ---children--girls under the age of 12.5 and boys under the age of 13

 

[irosie91]

Ok, if you see baptism as turning from disobedience, how can a baby do that? A baby can do that many years later, when they are no longer a baby and learn (through life experience) that obedience to God is key. But can an infant understand the concept of obedience... or salvation?

Honestly, I don't want to keep pressing the point. But you did share your view on it, so it is hard to not ask you that question.

I like the parties

 

[Unkotare]

...

Honestly, I don't want to keep pressing the point. ...

Yeah you do. Don't lie.

 

[irosie91]

Yeah you do. Don't lie.

it's a nice family get together and mom gets to dress the baby up

 

[buttercup]

Yeah you do. Don't lie.

Your trolling is tiresome, as is your following me around to be nasty. I've been having a fairly civil discussion with Meriweather (you could learn from her) so unless you start to discuss the actual topic in a Zone 1 way, all you're doing here is making yourself look like a 14 year old troll. * yawn *

 

[buttercup]

I like the parties

Yeah, I get that it can be a nice social event. I have relatives who baptize their babies and everyone gets all dressed up and all that.

 

[Meriweather]

I know Catholics see it differently, that's what I said earlier. But with a topic as important as salvation, which has eternal consequences... I don't think it's something anyone should take lightly or think of as a matter of mere opinion. It's not a matter of opinion, there is an actual truth. And as the law of non-contradiction states, two contradictory truths cannot both be right at the same time.

In response to your last paragraph.... My view is that justification is a one-time event. Some people use the words justification and salvation interchangeably. But salvation overall is about more than justification. It also includes sanctification and glorification.

In Catholicism, justification is more synonymous with purification of the soul, not a one-time event where God suddenly sees an unrighteous soul as righteous and purified due to belief/baptism in Jesus. In Catholicism, if we do something that is unrighteous, unrighteousness is what God sees until we turn away from that sin (disobedience to obedience) and correct the results of our disobedience, wrong-doing and return to the way of salvation/obedience. This is where we see baptismal grace and the Holy Spirit working within our lives to actually free our souls from disobedience and committing future sin.

Therefore, salvation and justification should not be used interchangeably. The Way of Salvation is an ongoing purification of our souls, so that the soul/spirit itself becomes pure. How do I know my soul/spirit is not there yet? Because sin and shortcomings are still an ongoing part of my life that needs my work--and to succeed--God's grace. I am not yet the best soul I can be. It's an ongoing process.

One time justification is the belief that Jesus' blood covers up all one's sins and God cannot see them because all he sees is Christ. Ongoing justification is the belief that with God's grace and the help of the Holy Spirit, the Word, the Creator, sin can be overcome and God sees, not a soul that has been covered up, but the soul's true state of righteousness/purification. It is also true that any state of righteousness of my soul/spirit at any given time is due to God's Creative Grace, Word, and Holy Spirit. Its unrighteous short-comings are all my fault, faults I am still at work on correcting.

While it is true both our views cannot be correct, it does not matter. Why? Because God and His Holy Spirit, His Word can work with us wherever we are. He comes after His lost sheep and brings us home.

 

[Meriweather]

Ok, if you see baptism as turning from disobedience, how can a baby do that? A baby can do that many years later, when they are no longer a baby and learn (through life experience) that obedience to God is key. But can an infant understand the concept of obedience... or salvation?

Honestly, I don't want to keep pressing the point. But you did share your view on it, so it is hard to not ask you that question.

The baby is prepared for obedience, trained in obedience by his family and the life the family lives. To the greatest extent possible he dwells within lives of obedience. Life's experiences are first attained within family experiences. That also comes with observing forgiveness--and that comes even to baby short-comings.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

For those who believe salvation is a one-time event, or once saved always saved, it is logical to wait until adulthood

This isnt what any Christians I know believe. If they teach that, they are biblically ignorant. You can lose your salvation

 

[buttercup]

The baby is prepared for obedience, trained in obedience by his family and the life the family lives. To the greatest extent possible he dwells within lives of obedience. Life's experiences are first attained within family experiences. That also comes with observing forgiveness--and that comes even to baby short-comings.

I agree that it's good to prepare and train the baby for obedience. However that can be done without baptism. Throughout the New Testament, water baptism was specifically associated with repentance:

And he came into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins; - Luke 3:3​

​

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. - Acts 2:38​

​

Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus. - Acts 19:4​

It also is associated with death to one's old self and resurrection to new life in Christ. That's what the dunking in water is a picture of. It's a picture of burial (being dunked under water) and resurrection (coming up) to new life.

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. - Romans 6:1–4​

​

There's many more like that. And the bottom line is, a baby is not old enough to understand the concept of repentance or anything else like that. So infant baptism goes against what the Bible teaches about water baptism, and doesn't actually do anything other than maybe make the parents feel good. But parents can feel good by simply dedicating their baby to God, which IS biblical.

Jesus was dedicated as a baby, and water baptized as an adult. To me it's clear that Jesus did that as an example to all of us.

 

[buttercup]

While it is true both our views cannot be correct, it does not matter. Why? Because God and His Holy Spirit, His Word can work with us wherever we are. He comes after His lost sheep and brings us home.

While it's true that God can work with us wherever we are, and, as you said, He comes after His lost sheep to bring them home... I respectfully disagree that it doesn't matter at all.

I don't want to take this thread too off topic by focusing on the topic of salvation. But the thing is, since salvation is of the utmost importance, wrong teachings about it can have eternal consequences, even though as you said, God still tries to reach people.

As I think you know, I grew up going to Catholic church, so I am not completely unfamiliar with Catholic teachings. The main thing that I believe Catholicism is wrong about is (as far as I've seen) there is no emphasis and clear teaching on what it truly means to be born again.

You said: "The Way of Salvation is an ongoing purification of our souls, so that the soul/spirit itself becomes pure." Yes, I think it's true that purification of our souls is an ongoing process. However, as far as I've seen, that seems to skip over the most important part.

I'm talking about being born again. That involves death to one's old self (which is taught throughout the New Testament), total surrender to God and placing one's faith entirely on what Jesus did for us, as opposed to our own works.

Once we are born again, the bible says we are literally a new creation. (2 Corinthians 5:17) We have gone from death to life. And at THAT point, then the "purification process" can truly begin... which in non-Catholic Christianity is called sanctification. Sanctification is not a one-time event, it's an ongoing process that can take decades, because it involves time, learning and growing spiritually. But again that comes after being born again.

Skipping over the absolute necessity of spiritual birth and going straight to the purification process I believe is putting the cart before the horse. And as someone else put it in an excellent spoken work video about the Gospel, it is like "spraying perfume on a corpse."

But like I said, I don't want to get off topic here, so...maybe this would've been better for a thread of its own.

 

[Meriweather]

I agree that it's good to prepare and train the baby for obedience. However that can be done without baptism. Throughout the New Testament, water baptism was specifically associated with repentance:


And he came into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins; - Luke 3:3Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. - Acts 2:38Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus. - Acts 19:4

It also is associated with death to one's old self and resurrection to new life in Christ. That's what the dunking in water is a picture of. It's a picture of burial (being dunked under water) and resurrection (coming up) to new life.


What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. - Romans 6:1–4
There's many more like that. And the bottom line is, a baby is not old enough to understand the concept of repentance or anything else like that. So infant baptism goes against what the Bible teaches about water baptism, and doesn't actually do anything other than maybe make the parents feel good. But parents can feel good by simply dedicating their baby to God, which IS biblical.

Jesus was dedicated as a baby, and water baptized as an adult. To me it's clear that Jesus did that as an example to all of us.

Again this is the difference of seeing a Sacrament (Baptism in this case) as a once and done...as though it does its job immediately and is never seen again, much like a single annual flower.

In Catholicism, Baptism begins with the turning away from Original Sin, from disobedience to obedience. The etymology of 'repentance' is to turn away, have a change of heart. Baptism is efficacious, meaning it is capable of producing a result, that change of heart from worldly ways (the sin of Adam and Eve) to obedience to God (life in Christ). God's grace and justification has accomplished this, and now the baby is ready, as it grows, to walk in the Way of Salvation, the Way of Christ, with his/her family.

In Judaism, the first born son was dedicated/consecrated to the service of God. We see this when Hannah gave her three-year-old son to Samuel to be raised in the Temple instead of with his parents. Other children, after the first born, were not dedicated. In fact some only got the leavings of the first born son. So no, the original purpose of dedication is not similar to baptism. Nor does dedication bring forth the graces and justification that come from baptism alone.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

This isnt what any Christians I know believe. If they teach that, they are biblically ignorant. You can lose your salvation

So you really say my statement is "fake news buttercup ? Was Meriweather right that you believe "once saved always saved"?

I'm not a part of Catholicism, Protestantism, or the JWs or Mormons, so maybe that false doctrine is more common than I thought. Regardless, it is still FALSE DOCTRINE.

When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Again this is the difference of seeing a Sacrament (Baptism in this case) as a once and done...as though it does its job immediately and is never seen again, much like a single annual flower.

In Catholicism, Baptism begins with the turning away from Original Sin, from disobedience to obedience. The etymology of 'repentance' is to turn away, have a change of heart. Baptism is efficacious, meaning it is capable of producing a result, that change of heart from worldly ways (the sin of Adam and Eve) to obedience to God (life in Christ). God's grace and justification has accomplished this, and now the baby is ready, as it grows, to walk in the Way of Salvation, the Way of Christ, with his/her family.

In Judaism, the first born son was dedicated/consecrated to the service of God. We see this when Hannah gave her three-year-old son to Samuel to be raised in the Temple instead of with his parents. Other children, after the first born, were not dedicated. In fact some only got the leavings of the first born son. So no, the original purpose of dedication is not similar to baptism. Nor does dedication bring forth the graces and justification that come from baptism alone.

babies can't turn away from sin they don't even know what is happening.