Zone1 Where does it say in the Bible only adults can be baptized?

[Unkotare]

If I cared only about winning an argument, I wouldn't have only 10,000 posts in 14 years, as opposed to 130,000 posts.

I've said this so many times now, I've lost count, but I'll say it one more time.

People are being misled about something very, VERY important... salvation, our eternal destiny.

If you think that Christians shouldn't care about others having a false sense of security that can lead to eternal separation from God, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

So obviously desperate to "win." I guess that's all that faith means to you. Ok. The "look how many posts you have!" divergence particularly reeks of desperation and frustration. Good luck with that.

 

[buttercup]

So obviously desperate to "win." I guess that's all that faith means to you. Ok. The "look how many posts you have!" divergence particularly reeks of desperation and frustration. Good luck with that.

You keep cutting off 95% of my post in order to continually ignore the main point.

People are being misled. If it doesn't matter to you that many people will be eternally separated from God, then that is YOUR thing, but some of us don't like when people are misled. And as I already said before, the bible itself tells us to correct false teachings. Are you even a believer? I mean, if you're not, then I guess I can understand that you don't care about sound doctrine. But if you are a believer, then your apathy to something so important makes no sense.

 

[Meriweather]

I agree that salvation is open to all. But that doesn't mean all choose it.

We all must make the choice on our own. If it's not our own... if it's someone else's choice for us, then it's not genuine.

And yes, of course we still repent when we do wrong, even after becoming a Christian. But not to "maintain" our salvation. Justification is a one-time event. Once we're a Christian, repenting after doing something wrong is about being right with God....and of course making the choice to stop doing wrong things so we can move forward.

Of course a choice one makes on behalf of another, especially a child, is genuine! Is not a teacher's selection of a math assignment not a choice for the student; a parent's decision of cookie or apple a choice for the child; a boss's direction to an employee a choice for the employee; Christ's command for baptism a choice for Christians.

While Catholics believe justification takes place in baptism, it is the beginning, not the end of justification. Continue the read of scripture and time after time we read we have the hope of salvation, the hope of seeing God, meaning these are yet to come. Scripture explains our need to grow/remain in grace, and that grace can be resisted.

God chose redemption and salvation for all. Can it be resisted? Yes. Will there be Prodigal Sons? Yes. Will there be lost sheep? Yes. No matter when our baptism, if we stray, there are ways back.

 

[forkintheroad7]

And neither does any other person including popes, priests or any church. The scriptures is our foundation, not men in robes.

This is heresy, according to the Church Christ founded, which is the Catholic Church. It is the only one that goes back to the first century, began being called Catholic (Universal) in the FIRST century. Why do you adhere to a "church" that is NOT a Church? Jesus founded only ONE, not 30 or 40,000, all teaching different things.

I wish protestants would wake up. At least they should investigate the claims of the CC (meaning the true CC not the fake one currently occupying the Vatican, against God's will).

I direct people to the Sedevacantists who KNOW Catholic teaching that was available to all for 20 centuries until the takeover of the Vatican 65 years ago by anti-Catholics. When I say "Catholic" here I am speaking (unless I say otherwise) of the TRUE Catholic Church..

The other 2 branches are in error, though they get a few things right.

Anyhow.. it's unbelievable to me how obstinate Protestants are in rejecting the True Faith. They hold onto their old ideas even when Catholics point out scripture that tells a different story. That's a good way to get yourself into Hell. Jesus founded a Church to get people to Heaven.. and it is the only one that has the wherewithal to do that.

 

[Meriweather]

People are being misled.

Baptism (Christ's sacrament) and the Holy Spirit misleads no one. All are welcome. All are called to baptism. Go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them.... And.... The Kingdom of God belongs to such as these (little children).

 

[Unkotare]

You keep cutting off 95% of my post in order to ...

To focus on specific points without confusing the issue.

 

[Unkotare]

....

People are being misled.....

Once again arrogantly presuming to know the will of God.

 

[Unkotare]

... Are you even a believer? I mean, if you're not, then I guess I can understand that you don't care about sound doctrine. But if you are a believer, then your apathy to something so important makes no sense.

Keep fighting to "win"!

 

[buttercup]

Of course a choice one makes on behalf of another, especially a child, is genuine!

Wow. I'm speechless if that's what you actually believe.

To be clear, I wasn't talking about the PARENT's choice for another not being genuine. I was talking about the baby, the one being baptized. The parent's "choice" for someone else may be genuine and sincere. But that doesn't matter one whit if the person being baptized has not himself chosen to believe and follow Jesus.

Do you really think that someone can choose for someone else? Of course we can teach someone else. Of course we can PRAY continually for someone else. Of course we can be an example to someone else. Of course we can lead a horse to water..... but you can't force the horse to drink.

We all have to come to that point on our own. If it's someone else's choice thrust upon us without our own "coming to Jesus" moment, then it's not genuine. I honestly don't see how that can even be disputed.

Is not a teacher's selection of a math assignment not a choice for the student; a parent's decision of cookie or apple a choice for the child; a boss's direction to an employee a choice for the employee; Christ's command for baptism a choice for Christians.

While Catholics believe justification takes place in baptism, it is the beginning, not the end of justification. Continue the read of scripture and time after time we read we have the hope of salvation, the hope of seeing God, meaning these are yet to come. Scripture explains our need to grow/remain in grace, and that grace can be resisted.

God chose redemption and salvation for all. Can it be resisted? Yes. Will there be Prodigal Sons? Yes. Will there be lost sheep? Yes. No matter when our baptism, if we stray, there are ways back.

I never said that there aren't Prodigal Sons or ways back. That's not the issue here.

The bottom line is, water baptism is not what saves us, and if we don't make the aware, serious and genuine choice for Christ on our own, then water baptism is meaningless in regard to salvation, even if it means something to the parents.

There are lots of people who were water baptized as an infant in a church, and then when they got older left religion and became life-long atheists. Do you believe those atheists will go to heaven even though they completely reject God and never chose to follow Jesus, simply because they went through infant baptism and first communion?

 

[buttercup]

Keep fighting to "win"!

I've asked you a few times, but you still haven't answered.... what are your spiritual beliefs? Are you a practicing Christian? Or an agnostic? Or atheist?

 

[buttercup]

Unkotare - you gave post #204 a thumbs up...do you agree with forkintheroad's belief that only the Catholic Church can get people to Heaven?

 

[Unkotare]

...... I honestly don't see how that can even be disputed.
...

Translation: "I win! I win! You have to agree with me!"

Kinda sad, really.

 

[buttercup]

Translation: "I win! I win! You have to agree with me!"

Kinda sad, really.

It's clear that you're just trolling.

But since you brought it up, if you disagree that someone can't make a choice for someone else, then please present your case. Refute that point.

You never do. You never actually engage in genuine discussion, you just do drive-by flames and thumb downs.

Come on Unkotare. If you believe someone can choose someone else's salvation, then go ahead make your case. I'll wait.

 

[buttercup]

At least Meriweather engages in actual discussion and debate. I respect that, even if I disagree with her. And she's usually civil.

Anyway, I've been here waaaaaay too long today. I feel like I'm wasting my day at this point. Unkotare, if you decide to actually engage in genuine discussion (as opposed to one-line ad homs and thumb downs) then I'll get back to this later. But if trolling is all you got, then I'm going to sign off here...which I should've done hours ago.

 

[Unkotare]

...

Come on Unkotare. If you believe someone can choose someone else's salvation, then go ahead make your case. I'll wait.

There it is again. Competition in place of faith. Disappointing. On a forum for religion, this seems like trolling every other set of beliefs but one's own.

 

[Meriweather]

Wow. I'm speechless if that's what you actually believe.

Right. It's more important to decide whether a child gets an apple or cookie than whether they are led in the way of salvation.

Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it. (Proverbs 22:6)

To be clear, I wasn't talking about the PARENT's choice for another not being genuine. I was talking about the baby, the one being baptized.

And I was talking about children being one with the family unit.

 

[Meriweather]

There are lots of people who were water baptized as an infant in a church, and then when they got older left religion and became life-long atheists.

Same is true of those who were baptized as older children--and adults. Many of those not raised into a faith don't bother with one as adults either. Why miss the opportunity of presenting ones' children with the greatest gift we have and share as family, as the Body of Christ?

And your best answer is, "They might become atheists." ?

What if they don't?

 

[buttercup]

Right. It's more important to decide whether a child gets an apple or cookie than whether they are led in the way of salvation.

Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it. (Proverbs 22:6)


And I was talking about children being one with the family unit.

I already addressed that in post #190.

You are conflating two entirely different things.

I'll say it again. YES, OF COURSE Christian parents should raise their children in the ways of God, teaching and inspiring them from a young age. No one has denied that! That's what we're supposed to do!

But that is entirely different than thinking infant baptism has anything to do with salvation, because salvation involves a personal choice that is conscious, aware and serious...and a baby is incapable of making that choice. You can't make that choice for someone else. AGAIN, when I say "that choice" I'm not talking about how a parent raises a child. I'm taking about the choice to surrender, repent and receive the gift of salvation. That is something that each of us as individuals has to do, with understanding and awareness.

 

[buttercup]

Same is true of those who were baptized as older children--and adults. Many of those not raised into a faith don't bother with one as adults either. Why miss the opportunity of presenting ones' children with the greatest gift we have and share as family, as the Body of Christ?

And your best answer is, "They might become atheists." ?

What if they don't?

No, it's not the same because outside the Catholic Church when Christians get water baptized as an older child or adult, the overwhelming majority UNDERSTAND that water baptism is symbolic, it it not what saves us. So if they later become atheists, they're not under the illusion that they are going to end up in Heaven just because they got water baptized.

But I've known Catholics who think that just because they were baptized as a baby and had their first communion, that they've received salvation. So in that case, there is often a false sense of security that can lead to eternal separation from God if that person never experienced true conversion.

 

[Unkotare]

This thread has devolved into straight-up bigotry. How spiritual.