Zone1 Where does it say in the Bible only adults can be baptized?

[Meriweather]

But that is entirely different than thinking infant baptism has anything to do with salvation, because salvation involves a personal choice that is conscious, aware and serious...and a baby is incapable of making that choice.

Either baptism has a role in salvation or it doesn't. Either the Holy Spirit has an effect or doesn't. Baptism is the visible sign of the invisible reality. The invisible reality is grace. As has been pointed out before, anyone can walk away from salvation and/or grace at any point in his/her life. They can also learn to walk in what was given them at any point in their life. I don't know what childhood/toddler memories you possess, but I have several strong ones involving God. You can argue that I would have had these memories/choices anyway, and all I'll do is shrug. I credit God, his Holy Spirit, His Word.

Have you considered that the way you explain baptism it has little to do with the Holy Spirit and grace at work, but rather more to do with a deliberate work of man? If a parent doesn't want this grace and the Holy Spirit on their child until later, they have their reasons. I don't question those--in fact, I don't care what those reasons are. I am merely explaining why Catholic parents/families choose to have their children join them in the family of God. If parents don't think their babies are yet fit/meant for this--their call. My own experiences (and scripture, by the way) say differently.

 

[buttercup]

This thread has devolved into straight-up bigotry. How spiritual.

You're the only one who has been constantly making it personal instead of discussing the actual topic. The rest of us here are trying to have a discussion on what the scriptures teach about water baptism. It has become clear that sound doctrine and truth doesn't matter to you. So I guess you answered my question about your spiritual beliefs without actually answering it.

 

[Meriweather]

But I've known Catholics who think that just because they were baptized as a baby and had their first communion, that they've received salvation.

Then talk to Catholics who have studied Catholicism or actually listened to any priest. Or, you can point to the paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that confirms that all salvation consists of is baptism and first communion.

 

[Unkotare]

You're the only one who has been constantly making it personal instead of discussing the actual topic. The rest of us here are trying to have a discussion on what the scriptures teach about water baptism. It has become clear that sound doctrine and truth doesn't matter to you. So I guess you answered my question about your spiritual beliefs without actually answering it.

Talk about making it personal.

 

[buttercup]

Either baptism has a role in salvation or it doesn't. Either the Holy Spirit has an effect or doesn't.

Water baptism doesn't save us. It's something that Christians SHOULD do, because it's a public declaration of one's new faith and new life in Christ.... but being dunked in water is not what saves us.

Baptism is the visible sign of the invisible reality. The invisible reality is grace

Yes, I agree that it is a visible sign of an invisible reality. But God's grace comes through faith, it not something that God forces on people who don't have faith, it is not automatic. Even if the parents want it for their child. The child (when old enough to understand) has to make that decision for himself/herself.

. As has been pointed out before, anyone can walk away from salvation and/or grace at any point in his/her life. They can also learn to walk in what was given them at any point in their life. I don't know what childhood/toddler memories you possess, but I have several strong ones involving God. You can argue that I would have had these memories/choices anyway, and all I'll do is shrug. I credit God, his Holy Spirit, His Word.

Yes, and as has been pointed out before, in the case of older children or adults getting water baptized and then later leaving the faith, they understand that water baptism is symbolic, so they don't have a false sense of security.

Have you considered that the way you explain baptism it has little to do with the Holy Spirit and grace at work, but rather more to do with a deliberate work of man? If a parent doesn't want this grace and the Holy Spirit on their child until later, they have their reasons. I don't question those--in fact, I don't care what those reasons are. I am merely explaining why Catholic parents/families choose to have their children join them in the family of God. If parents don't think their babies are yet fit/meant for this--their call. My own experiences (and scripture, by the way) say differently.

Don't get me wrong. Of course the Holy Spirit is involved when a person comes to Christ. The bible is clear that once we believe and receive salvation, we get sealed with the Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)

But if there is no true conversion? Then that person is still in their natural state. And although I believe God will still pursue that person and "knock on their door" so to speak... God does not force Himself on people, and the idea that merely sprinkling someone with water saves them and seals them with the Spirit is not biblical.

We are not saved by any works or ceremonies, but by God's grace through faith and a true profound inner change that takes place. That involves understanding the Gospel, and a baby simply is incapable of understanding or making that decision at that age.

 

[Meriweather]

Water baptism doesn't save us. It's something that Christians SHOULD do, because it's a public declaration of one's new faith and new life in Christ.... but being dunked in water is not what saves us.

It is much, much more than a declaration by the baptized. It is God's work unfolding, His grace being bestowed.

they understand that water baptism is symbolic

Catholic believe baptism is a visible sign of the invisible reality. We do not believe baptism is symbolic. We believe that the baptized is fully welcomed, is given grace to grow in the life of Christ, and is a full member of the Body of Christ.

I can see where it might be easy to walk away from a symbol. It's not as easy to walk away from reality.

Don't get me wrong. Of course the Holy Spirit is involved when a person comes to Christ. The bible is clear that once we believe and receive salvation, we get sealed with the Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)

But if there is no true conversion? Then that person is still in their natural state. And although I believe God will still pursue that person and "knock on their door" so to speak... God does not force Himself on people, and the idea that merely sprinkling someone with water saves them and seals them with the Spirit is not biblical.

We are not saved by any works or ceremonies, but by God's grace through faith and a true profound inner change that takes place. That involves understanding the Gospel, and a baby simply is incapable of understanding or making that decision at that age.

The baptized become participants in God's work of salvation, walk away, or sit on the fence. It appears God pursues those who walk away, but doesn't care much for the lukewarm who choose the fence.

 

[buttercup]

It is much, much more than a declaration by the baptized. It is God's work unfolding, His grace being bestowed.

As was posted before, God's grace is not automatic and it is not forced upon people. The bible says we are saved by God's grace through faith.

If you believe that water baptism saves us, then please back yourself up scripturally. Thank you in advance.

If water baptism was a requirement for salvation, then Jesus was lying when He said he would see the thief on the cross in Paradise.

And if water baptism was a requirement for salvation, then ALL the people who came to Christ on their deathbed in a genuine way, are not actually saved because they didn't have time to get dunked.

And if that were true then ALL the believing Christians who, for whatever reason, missed the boat on water baptism, are not saved but doomed to eternal separation from God.

And if that were true then ALL the babies who died as babies or very young children, but weren't born into a religious family and never got sprinkled as a baby are doomed to eternal separation from God.

Does that ring true to you? Do you really believe it's what the bible teaches? If so, again, please post the scriptures that back it up.

Catholic believe baptism is a visible sign of the invisible reality. We do not believe baptism is symbolic. We believe that the baptized is fully welcomed, is given grace to grow in the life of Christ, and is a full member of the Body of Christ.

I can see where it might be easy to walk away from a symbol. It's not as easy to walk away from reality.


The baptized become participants in God's work of salvation, walk away, or sit on the fence. It appears God pursues those who walk away, but doesn't care much for the lukewarm who choose the fence.

Yes, I agree that it is a visible sign of the invisible reality. But the reality is not the water sprinkles or water dunking. The reality is spiritual birth and new life in Christ because a true, pivotal inner change already took place in the person. If that faith and true change in a person's heart/ mind is not there, then mere water is not going to save the person.

But it seems we're going around in circles now, repeating the same things. So unless you will post the scriptures that support the view that water baptism saves us, then we're not getting anywhere here.

 

[Meriweather]

If you believe that water baptism saves us, then please back yourself up scripturally. Thank you in advance.

I believe Jesus said to his Apostles to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. With that, I trust in God's work of salvation and our participation in God's work of salvation.

Yes, I agree that it is a visible sign of the invisible reality. But the reality is not the water sprinkles or water dunking. The reality is a true, pivotal inner change that takes place in a person who comes to faith in Jesus. If that faith and true change in a person's heart/ mind is not there, then mere water is not going to save the person.

But it seems we're going around in circles now, repeating the same things. So unless you will post the scriptures that support the view that water baptism saves us, then we're not getting anywhere here.

Mere water? Who said anything about that? The reality is not the visible signs of water, etc. The reality is that God's grace is bestowed on the person being baptized.

As I said previously, it is Jesus who is the way of salvation, and Jesus who said baptize all nations, and Jesus who said, let the little children come to me, that the Kingdom of heaven belongs so such as them. (When do children enter a nation...at their birth or must they wait until a certain age?) Those who believe that Jesus does not want them to bring their babies to him shouldn't do it. Those who believe in the reality of baptism that grace and the Holy Spirit comes upon the baptized, are eager to place their babies in the hands and in the words of Jesus.

 

[buttercup]

I believe Jesus said to his Apostles to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. With that, I trust in God's work of salvation and our participation in God's work of salvation.

Yes, Jesus said to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

But you seem to be overlooking the word 'disciples.' Babies are not disciples. Unbelievers are not disciples. A disciple is someone who has already come to faith in Jesus and has repented and chosen to follow Jesus and learn more. A baby cannot do that.

Mere water? Who said anything about that? The reality is not the visible signs of water, etc. The reality is that God's grace is bestowed on the person being baptized.

Again, God's grace is not automatic. It is not forced upon someone who doesn't believe and is not even capable of believing at that point in their life.

God wants us to come to Him willingly, by our own volition...and knowingly, genuinely and seriously. A baby cannot do that.

As I said previously, it is Jesus who is the way of salvation, and Jesus who said baptize all nations, and Jesus who said, let the little children come to me, that the Kingdom of heaven belongs so such as them. (When do children enter a nation...at their birth or must they wait until a certain age?) Those who believe that Jesus does not want them to bring their babies to him shouldn't do it. Those who believe in the reality of baptism that grace and the Holy Spirit comes upon the baptized, are eager to place their babies in the hands and in the words of Jesus.

YES, as I already posted a few times now, of course Christian parents should let their children come to God, raise their children to know Jesus, and teach them the ways of God as it says in Proverbs 22:6.

But that is entirely different than saying a baby is saved simply because they went through a religious ceremony.

You are conflating those two things. No one here has disagreed that parents should bring their children to God, by teaching them about God and encouraging them to learn and pray, etc. Of course believing parents should do those things.

But if we're talking about salvation, it still comes down to each individual making their own choice. A baby or toddler is not old enough to understand any of that, let alone make the choice themselves.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, Jesus said to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

But you seem to be overlooking the word 'disciples.' Babies are not disciples. Unbelievers are not disciples. A disciple is someone who has already come to faith in Jesus and has repented and chosen to follow Jesus and learn more. A baby cannot do that.

So don't baptize your babies. I take it you were also against Hannah taking her three-year-old son to the Temple.

 

[buttercup]

So don't baptize your babies. I take it you were also against Hannah taking her three-year-old son to the Temple.

No, in fact I said the exact opposite. I said numerous times that yes, of course parents should take their kids to church (or Sunday school, or some churches have teachings and activities for kids according to their age group.) But again, you are conflating 1) teaching kids about God and encouraging them to have faith, which is biblical... and 2) the idea that infant baptism saves, which is a different matter, and not biblical.

 

[buttercup]

But I'm sorry Merriweather, I'm getting tired of repeating things and I don't want to keep going around in circles. So unless that changes I'll let someone else take it from here if you want to continue discussing this. Thank you for being civil.

 

[buttercup]

So don't baptize your babies. I take it you were also against Hannah taking her three-year-old son to the Temple.

Actually, I just want to say one more thing. Hannah taking her son Samuel to the temple is an example of child dedication, which some of us here have been saying IS biblical and a good thing.

So why not just dedicate babies to God, which involves the parents publicly committing to raising their baby in the ways of God, and asking for prayer from the church and accountability... instead of infant baptism?

Baby dedication is a beautiful thing. In one church I used to go to, I made videos for a number of couples who dedicated their babies in the church. All the churches I've gone to do baby dedications on a regular basis. Not infant baptism.

But anyway, I said I wasn't going to continue, so I'll just leave it at that. I just wanted to add that one thing, since I felt it was ironic that you brought up an example of baby dedication (which I have is what the bible teaches) on a thread about infant baptism. Two very different things.

 

[Meriweather]

YES, as I already posted a few times now, of course Christian parents should let their children come to God, raise their children to know Jesus, and teach them the ways of God as it says in Proverbs 22:6.

But that is entirely different than saying a baby is saved simply because they went through a religious ceremony.

You are conflating those two things. No one here has disagreed that parents should bring their children to God, by teaching them about God and encouraging them to learn and pray, etc. Of course believing parents should do those things.

But if we're talking about salvation, it still comes down to each individual making their own choice. A baby or toddler is not old enough to understand any of that, let alone make the choice themselves.

I get it. Your child has no need God's grace, s/he just needs you. You believe someone has to reach a certain age to enter the way of salvation. Until that time the child is your disciple, not a disciple of Christ.

Try this: Am I "conflating" or are you dividing?

The way of salvation is open...except for children. ?

 

[onefour1]

Moroni Chapter 8 from the Book of Mormon

The baptism of little children is an evil abomination—Little children are alive in Christ because of the Atonement—Faith, repentance, meekness and lowliness of heart, receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end lead to salvation. About A.D. 401–21.

1 An epistle of my father Mormon, written to me, Moroni; and it was written unto me soon after my calling to the ministry. And on this wise did he write unto me, saying:
2 My beloved son, Moroni, I rejoice exceedingly that your Lord Jesus Christ hath been mindful of you, and hath called you to his ministry, and to his holy work.
3 I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.
4 And now, my son, I speak unto you concerning that which grieveth me exceedingly; for it grieveth me that there should disputations rise among you.
5 For, if I have learned the truth, there have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children.
6 And now, my son, I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this gross error should be removed from among you; for, for this intent I have written this epistle.
7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!
13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.
14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.
27 Behold, my son, I will write unto you again if I go not out soon against the Lamanites. Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction except they should repent.
28 Pray for them, my son, that repentance may come unto them. But behold, I fear lest the Spirit hath ceased striving with them; and in this part of the land they are also seeking to put down all power and authority which cometh from God; and they are denying the Holy Ghost.
29 And after rejecting so great a knowledge, my son, they must perish soon, unto the fulfilling of the prophecies which were spoken by the prophets, as well as the words of our Savior himself.
30 Farewell, my son, until I shall write unto you, or shall meet you again. Amen.

 

[Meriweather]

No, in fact I said the exact opposite. I said numerous times that yes, of course parents should take their kids to church (or Sunday school, or some churches have teachings and activities for kids according to their age group.) But again, you are conflating 1) teaching kids about God and encouraging them to have faith, which is biblical... and 2) the idea that infant baptism saves, which is a different matter, and not biblical.

Sigh. Where did I say "Baptism saves." ? I didn't because I don't use the word "saves". I talk about salvation and redemption. I did say Baptism is a beginning, an initiation, into the Way of Salvation. I did say the baptized receives the Holy Spirit and the gift of grace. Parents can start and be with their children on this Way of Salvation. Parents and children can all be members of the Body of Christ.

You are the one who insists that Catholics think baptism "saves". Or was that baptism and first communion?

Again, if you don't want your children baptized, don't baptize them. I get that you feel they are not yet worthy, or ready, or something, due to their age.

I am merely laying out why the Catholic faith baptizes infants into the Body of Christ. They are God's children, in God's family, and are under the care of those who, too, are members of the Body of Christ. We don't leave them behind.

 

[buttercup]

I get it. Your child has no need God's grace, s/he just needs you. You believe someone has to reach a certain age to enter the way of salvation. Until that time the child is your disciple, not a disciple of Christ.

Try this: Am I "conflating" or are you dividing?

The way of salvation is open...except for children.

Ok, now you're flat out putting words in my mouth, and blatantly doing so.

I never said that children don't need God's grace. I've lost count of how many times I have clearly stated that children SHOULD be brought to God, and taught the ways of God, and how to pray, etc.

But that is not the same thing as the belief that infant baptism saves. Yes, you ARE conflating two entirely different things.

I've also lost count of how many times I've stated that salvation is not automatic, it involves a choice to repent and believe and follow God. Babies are not capable of doing that. Are children? Yes, if they are old enough to understand. There is no set age for that, some children do understand, others may not until they get a little older.

But I don't believe that babies need to be saved anyway, I believe babies who die go straight to Heaven. That is not just my personal opinion, I think a case can be made for that with scripture. The example of David's baby who died comes to mind, just off the top of my head.

 

[buttercup]

Sigh. Where did I say "Baptism saves." ? I didn't because I don't use the word "saves". I talk about salvation and redemption. I did say Baptism is a beginning, an initiation, into the Way of Salvation. I did say the baptized receives the Holy Spirit and the gift of grace. Parents can start and be with their children on this Way of Salvation. Parents and children can all be members of the Body of Christ.

You are the one who insists that Catholics think baptism "saves". Or was that baptism and first communion?

Again, if you don't want your children baptized, don't baptize them. I get that you feel they are not yet worthy, or ready, or something, due to their age.

I am merely laying out why the Catholic faith baptizes infants into the Body of Christ. They are God's children, in God's family, and are under the care of those who, too, are members of the Body of Christ. We don't leave them behind.

You did say something earlier to that effect. I would have to go back through the many pages of this thread to find the comment I have in mind.

And also, fork said something about infant baptism "washing away" original sin, or something like that. I'm paraphrasing.

But see, I think we have pinpointed the specific problem here. With all due respect, your whole view of salvation is entirely different than what I and all the Christians I know believe. We believe we are saved by God's grace, through faith.... being born again. Which involves a conscious, aware decision to repent and follow Jesus, to put one's faith in Jesus and what HE did for us, as opposed to our own works. I don't know what your view is exactly, because you're always very vague about it, but your view (what the Catholic church teaches) seems to be very different, so of course you're going to have a different view about infant baptism.

 

[Meriweather]

I never said that children don't need God's grace. I've lost count of how many times I have clearly stated that children SHOULD be brought to God, and taught the ways of God, and how to pray, etc.

I know what you said and I accept what you said. You teach children about God, but you stop at Baptism and wait for them to make their own decision about salvation. That's fine, that's how some see salvation. All I am pointing out is that Catholics see it differently. I am not saying one is right and one is wrong...but you seem to be saying that. I am saying the Holy Spirit can work with both.

I am saying that Catholic teaching is the Holy Spirit and God's grace are especially present in Baptism. For those who believe salvation is a process (the Way of Salvation) not a one-time event, baptism of infants is logical.

For those who believe salvation is a one-time event, or once saved always saved, it is logical to wait until adulthood. I understand you believe the scriptures you select lean toward salvation being a one-time event. I don't believe they lean that way at all--sometimes they are even talking about something entirely different from salvation. Doesn't matter. You still believe salvation is a one-time event and that your children will have this event when they are ready. That is your choice. It's not that I think it is wrong, I simply know it is not my choice, based on scripture as I understand them and based on my own experiences.

 

[Meriweather]

And also, fork said something about infant baptism "washing away" original sin, or something like that. I'm paraphrasing.

Catholics see Original Sin as the propensity of humans to choose disobedience. I have heard the description of washing away Original Sin. I've also been taught (and I prefer this) as describing baptism as turning from disobedience (worldly ways) to obedience (God's ways). Either way the way/sin of Adam and Eve is rejected and the way/obedience of Christ is undertaken/embraced.