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Before space and time were created the laws of nature were already in place. The potential for all realities existed before space and time existed because those laws of nature were in place before space and time. Everything which has unfolded since space and time were created occurred because of the laws of nature. Moral Laws existed before beings that know and create existed. Moral Laws were waiting in time for beings that now and create to catch up to them, thus realizing its potential and fulfilling their role in progressing our conscience and consciousness. So where did the moral laws come from? They came from God who is existence itself; who s reality itself.
 

JakeStarkey

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Where do moral laws come from?

The Anglican and Episcopal churches, only.
 

Boss

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Before space and time were created the laws of nature were already in place. The potential for all realities existed before space and time existed because those laws of nature were in place before space and time. Everything which has unfolded since space and time were created occurred because of the laws of nature. Moral Laws existed before beings that know and create existed. Moral Laws were waiting in time for beings that now and create to catch up to them, thus realizing its potential and fulfilling their role in progressing our conscience and consciousness. So where did the moral laws come from? They came from God who is existence itself; who s reality itself.

Well you know we disagree about laws of nature existing before nature itself. Things can't exist without space and time in which to exist, unless we're talking about in some metaphysical sense. But now you're going a step further and maintaining that moral laws also existed in the void of nothingness before space and time. You say they were waiting for man to catch up to them... but I have a few questions on that.

Set aside the millions of years before man existed when nothing else in nature seemed the least bit aware of or interested in moral laws. In fact, nothing else in nature seems to abide by rules of moral law, even today. But you did claim it was there lurking in the ether for man to one day catch up with. Okay, so man comes along and for centuries, fought each other and conquered lands. They enslaved their enemies and committed atrocious acts on humanity. The ancients instituted their own moral laws which would be considered quite perverted by today's standard. So is this ethereal moral law constantly changing?

Okay... so maybe it was just waiting for Christians to catch up? But today, we see Catholic priests in sex scandals involving child molestation. Some Christian churches are accepting homosexuality openly. I've even heard pro-choice arguments from Christians. So where are these moral laws? If they belong to this special magical set of universal principles that have always existed, why aren't they working? Why do humans continue to have a major problem with immoral behavior?
 
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So is this ethereal moral law constantly changing?

No. We are constantly evolving towards it. Find the highest standard possible for any behavior, one that man doesn't really want to follow, and you will have most likely discovered it.

Okay... so maybe it was just waiting for Christians to catch up? But today, we see Catholic priests in sex scandals involving child molestation. Some Christian churches are accepting homosexuality openly. I've even heard pro-choice arguments from Christians. So where are these moral laws? If they belong to this special magical set of universal principles that have always existed, why aren't they working? Why do humans continue to have a major problem with immoral behavior?

All true, but since error cannot stand it is only a matter of time for our conscience and consciousness to evolve just like every other stage in the evolution of matter evolved before it. Truth is discovered through a conflict and confusion process. Diversity of thought is critical to that process.
 

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No. We are constantly evolving towards it. Find the highest standard possible for any behavior, one that man doesn't really want to follow, and you will have most likely discovered it.

Oh really? Well then, the Bible must be wrong about men laying with men and it must be perfectly okay for men to suck dick? Isn't that where we've evolved?

All true, but since error cannot stand it is only a matter of time for our conscience and consciousness to evolve just like every other stage in the evolution of matter evolved before it. Truth is discovered through a conflict and confusion process. Diversity of thought is critical to that process.

Again, our societal consciousness has evolved into one that glorifies homosexuality and women objectifying themselves. Women dress as vaginas and demand abortions on demand and societal consciousness celebrates them and books them on TV talk shows.

I think your theories about evolving toward a higher morality are problematic.
 

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You can not legislate morality!
I agree. It is not moral if you are forced to be moral.
no one is forced to be moral

But just like the bible don't follow the rules and get punished although the punishments of man aren't quite a sever as the ones god uses

Oh and moral laws come from the minds of the people who wrote them
 
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You can not legislate morality!
I agree. It is not moral if you are forced to be moral.
no one is forced to be moral

But just like the bible don't follow the rules and get punished although the punishments of man aren't quite a sever as the ones god uses

Oh and moral laws come from the minds of the people who wrote them
Secular laws try to force people to be moral.

Did you ever see God trow anyone in prison? But since you don't believe in God it is illogical for you to argue that God's punishments are more severe than man's.

If you believe that morals are defined by man then you believe morals can be anything man says they are. That is a slippery slope.
 
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No. We are constantly evolving towards it. Find the highest standard possible for any behavior, one that man doesn't really want to follow, and you will have most likely discovered it.

Oh really? Well then, the Bible must be wrong about men laying with men and it must be perfectly okay for men to suck dick? Isn't that where we've evolved?

All true, but since error cannot stand it is only a matter of time for our conscience and consciousness to evolve just like every other stage in the evolution of matter evolved before it. Truth is discovered through a conflict and confusion process. Diversity of thought is critical to that process.

Again, our societal consciousness has evolved into one that glorifies homosexuality and women objectifying themselves. Women dress as vaginas and demand abortions on demand and societal consciousness celebrates them and books them on TV talk shows.

I think your theories about evolving toward a higher morality are problematic.
Do you believe that men laying with men or killing our most innocent members of society are the highest possible standards? I don't.
 

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Before space and time were created the laws of nature were already in place. The potential for all realities existed before space and time existed because those laws of nature were in place before space and time. Everything which has unfolded since space and time were created occurred because of the laws of nature. Moral Laws existed before beings that know and create existed. Moral Laws were waiting in time for beings that now and create to catch up to them, thus realizing its potential and fulfilling their role in progressing our conscience and consciousness. So where did the moral laws come from? They came from God who is existence itself; who s reality itself.
Where did you come up with all that? Did you form your own religion or cobble pieces together from others?

Laws come from man, they differ from state to state, country from country.
 

Iceweasel

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You can not legislate morality!
I agree. It is not moral if you are forced to be moral.
no one is forced to be moral

But just like the bible don't follow the rules and get punished although the punishments of man aren't quite a sever as the ones god uses

Oh and moral laws come from the minds of the people who wrote them
Secular laws try to force people to be moral.

Did you ever see God trow anyone in prison? But since you don't believe in God it is illogical for you to argue that God's punishments are more severe than man's.

If you believe that morals are defined by man then you believe morals can be anything man says they are. That is a slippery slope.
There's nothing slippery about it. Morals differ wildly across the globe. I can't even be disputed. Morals differ here, all over the place. Some people think an adult having sex with a 12 yo is moral.
 

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Do you believe that men laying with men or killing our most innocent members of society are the highest possible standards? I don't.

Not at all but you were talking about this everlasting moral law that man has evolved into... but man hasn't. In fact, you can present me with a list of upstanding morals you believe in, which you think comprise this collection of moral law that has always existed, waiting for man to discover.... and I bet I can find a substantial number of people who don't believe your ideals are moral enough as well as a substantial number who think your ideals are over the top.

This tells me that moral values, unlike the laws of nature, are quite subjective. The parameters of morality change with culture and times. They are influenced by traditions, religions, teachings, cultural environments.
 

rightwinger

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Moral laws have come from society

As humans formed societal groups, laws balancing the needs of the individual with the needs of the group were established. As societal groups became larger, we established a more complex moral code
 
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Skull Pilot

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You can not legislate morality!
I agree. It is not moral if you are forced to be moral.
no one is forced to be moral

But just like the bible don't follow the rules and get punished although the punishments of man aren't quite a sever as the ones god uses

Oh and moral laws come from the minds of the people who wrote them
Secular laws try to force people to be moral.

Did you ever see God trow anyone in prison? But since you don't believe in God it is illogical for you to argue that God's punishments are more severe than man's.

If you believe that morals are defined by man then you believe morals can be anything man says they are. That is a slippery slope.

No they don't they spell out the consequences if you disobey the laws

What do you think the 10 commandments or the 7 deadly dins are? Except those are enforced by the wrath of a god who is prone to indiscriminately killing people

And yes morals can be whatever we say they are. It's OK to kill in war or in self defense for example even though god says thou shalt not kill
 

dblack

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You can not legislate morality!

You can, but shouldn't. Government should protect our freedom to live according to our own vision of morality.
 

dblack

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Before space and time were created the laws of nature were already in place. The potential for all realities existed before space and time existed because those laws of nature were in place before space and time. Everything which has unfolded since space and time were created occurred because of the laws of nature. Moral Laws existed before beings that know and create existed. Moral Laws were waiting in time for beings that now and create to catch up to them, thus realizing its potential and fulfilling their role in progressing our conscience and consciousness. So where did the moral laws come from? They came from God who is existence itself; who s reality itself.

Morality is an evolved social trait - just like language, religion, sex, etc...
 

norwegen

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Before space and time were created the laws of nature were already in place. The potential for all realities existed before space and time existed because those laws of nature were in place before space and time. Everything which has unfolded since space and time were created occurred because of the laws of nature. Moral Laws existed before beings that know and create existed. Moral Laws were waiting in time for beings that now and create to catch up to them, thus realizing its potential and fulfilling their role in progressing our conscience and consciousness. So where did the moral laws come from? They came from God who is existence itself; who s reality itself.
Where did you come up with all that? Did you form your own religion or cobble pieces together from others?

Laws come from man, they differ from state to state, country from country.
Arbitrary laws differ (i.e., positive law), and are more leftist in nature.

Law that we learn from revelation is universal. Reason and experience do not impose on us, which is what laws do that violate the natural law. Of course laws differ in different societies; some governments are more intrusive than others.
 

Skull Pilot

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Before space and time were created the laws of nature were already in place. The potential for all realities existed before space and time existed because those laws of nature were in place before space and time. Everything which has unfolded since space and time were created occurred because of the laws of nature. Moral Laws existed before beings that know and create existed. Moral Laws were waiting in time for beings that now and create to catch up to them, thus realizing its potential and fulfilling their role in progressing our conscience and consciousness. So where did the moral laws come from? They came from God who is existence itself; who s reality itself.

Morality is an evolved social trait - just like language, religion, sex, etc...
Well said

When humans were primarily small family tribes of hunter gatherers they would routinely attempt kill anyone not known to them.

as we became more socialized that type of xenophobic violence actually would hurt the community rather than protect it so it slowly stopped and the attitude that killing for no reason was undesirable became prevalent
 

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